Most, if not all, of the gramophone records in my collection, the ones that I regard as being good, involve musicians, singers, and songwriters.

Hardly what I said.   

Give us a clue! The only ones I can think of are Frankie. I particularly dislike ballads mind.

Can someone please tell me what a prole is?

Is it an unskilled and unsophisticated member ofthe proletariat? Someone who is not burgerlich?

Maybe it is because I am tired but i am struggling to see what Bateman's point is.

"....Sure they can sing but where's their song writing skills and ability to play instruments?...."

Point = ability to write songs or play an instrument has never been a prerequisite to fronting a great record.  Some people think it is.  They are wrong.

When I hear a record I couldn't give two shits who wrote it or who strummed the melody.  It's irrelevant to the finished product.

Elvis never wrote a god damned note.  Jim Morrison couldn't play any instrument.  Frank Sinatra could do neither.

I absolutely 100% agree with this and thank you for spelling it out to me cos I am really tired!

And I am going to take it further - sometimes a song writer who writes great stuff is better off letting someone else sing it for them.

It's all about interpretation.

Well exactly.  Tin Pan Alley and all that.  And Burt Bacarach.  Holland, Dozier, Holland....etc etc etcetera  Great songwriters?  You bet.

Do we castigate them for not singing their own material?  Cause if we look down on vocalists who cannot write we must look down on writers who can't sing.  Equal bullshit IMO.

I see your point, however Jim fronted a band, Frank fronted a very good band with a good knowledge of time signatures. (I don't have any Elvis stuff) the people on the x factor front backing tapes and seem to think one key change per song is a really neat idea. I actually believe that the occasional punter is pretty good, however they are never going to be allowed to do anything abnormal or exciting.

I don't care either who wrote a track I like as long as I like the vocal. Isadora's point below is very relevant here, at least for me. I really like Elvis Costello's songs but the sound of his horribly contrived vocal makes me want to do unspeakably violent things to innocent passers-by.

Your point is also valid except Elvis and Sinatra both had incredibly talented songwriting teams working for them. They didn't just churn out one mindless cover version after another. Jim Morrison wrote his own lyrics he was a vocalist who cares if he played an instrument or not?

But I think you are missing the point where X factor contestants are concerned. You are not going to find someone truly original (like Elvis and Sinatra) on a show like that. They would never even make it to boot camp. The 'original' vocalists on there well, you can see Cowell and that bumbling idiot Walsh just don't 'get it' when they hear them. If they can't pidgeon-hole them they're not interested and that counts for the viewers as well.

What you get on the X Factor is an endless procession of clueless, talentless moronic wannabes all of whom sound identical to an identified artist and who will only ever be fit to churn out crap covers in said 'style' of said artist. Even more laughable are the boy/girl bands who 'emulate' other boy/girl bands who themselves are only fit to churn out god-awful cover versions.

So while it is indeed possible to be a creative talent or at least a great performer without being able to write your own songs or play an instrument, this particular show exists to find acts that are pretty much an embodiment of everything  that sucks royally about the modern music scene.

I would like to see a show similar to this that has only bands and artists performing original material. What we need is new creative talent and music not another 100 'me too' morons, for the latter, well the public can of course get their 'fix' from the X Factor.

I should add btw, I think it does add layers of complexity and possibly interest when the performers are also the creators.  Example - listening to Morrissey sing the words he himself penned does create an artistic endeavour that bears more inquiry.  On the other hand, you don't listen to How Soon Is Now and think, "Well this is a bit shit.  He never wrote any of the music for this!  Them guitars...that Johnny Marr played them!.. Bastard!"  The finished product is what matters.

When the hairs on your neck bristle to a record that is just...right...how it arrived means eff all.  To me anyway.

Believe me, I'm not bigging up that programme or anything that's come from it.  I've never heard a single worthwhile piece of music come from it.  Ever.  Even the ones who could technically sing very well have, as you say, allowed themselves to be constrained into a litany of vile, vacuous dross.  And that's me being charitable. 

It was the notion really, that I've addressed. 

No, I'm really not.  You've missed mine. 

As I've said, I have not attempted to look positively on the products of that show.  I agree, you're right.  It is anti creativity and is a malign force.  Simon Cowell and is ideas are anathema to me.

Nope I got your point and it's a valid one. I just somehow thought you were using the X Factor as some kind of benchmark but can see now that you weren't.

Johnny Marr by the way is one of my favourite guitarists of all time, ever, along with Angus Young and Brian May. I can't see the X Factor producing that kind of talent anytime soon

Quite.   Although the lack of future Brian Mays is something we can be truly thankful for....rofl...

At her age Mrs May would probably agree 

It's rubbish and nothing I can add will be anything that hasn't been said by anyone else so I'll keep it quick and to the point.

X Factor = a pretty face (usually), the ability to belt out a well known tune in a genre style, the ability to sing in a way perceived as 'good' within a genre style, aspirations for fame, aspirations for money.

X Factor ≠ musicianship, artistic originality, song writing, music writing, artistic vision, desire or endeavour towards artistic expression.

Sums it right up 

Indeed, Prometheus,

It makes me laugh when they say "You made that song your own!". 

I doubt millions of pensioners threw out their Frank Sinatra versions of "My Way" and Dean Martin's "Sway" and said, "I really loved those songs by Sinatra and Dean Martin for over 50 years, but now I've heard Leon Jackson do them on the X Factor, I realise just how crap Sinatra and Dean Martin were by comparison.  Leon's made those songs his own!"

It's a sort of joke programme Carnelian and I watch it for the fun factor not the X Factor but as you correctly pointed out, classic artists and songs are dragged through the dirt. I really wanted to weep when I heard Olly Murs absolutely crucify Beatles classics last year. I don't even know him and I wanted to kill him. That's got to be 'wrong' I think.

Probably worth pointing out that a whole of 'real' bands are as manufactured as anything X Wanktor can manage.  I know people love the idea that their favourite bands evolved naturally somehow and have real (preferably working class) soul behind them but even the most indie of indie bands have chosen their bassist cause he had a good hairdo and knew lots of hot girls.  Musical talent somewhat often comes later. 

And the Sex Pistols were a manufactured boy band.  Not relevant whether one likes them or not, they were incredibly influential and important in pop terms.  Whole host of music would be different these days if they hadn't come along.  Just saying... 

Of course, the difference being that the songs were their own and they were actually fantastic songs to boot. Apart from that you're spot on 

Ahh right, thanks Katty, I didn't know that.  I guess it's come to the end of its lifespan and served its purpose for a while.  I just got disillusioned when they started putting through all the stupid acts and treating us like idiots when we know it is all so contrived and rehearsed.

I hope the US version is going to be alot better.

No they were not fantastic songs - they were just a din. A bit like the Jesus and Mary Chain... just shouting into the microphone. 
Well anyone can do that,... 

You what!

Nothing like the Jesus and Mary Chain.

tJaMC based their original sound on sixties pop and drenched it in feedback with obvious influences of the Velvet Underground.   Love them or hate them, one thing you can say about tJaMC is there is no shouting into the microphone.

Yep - you said it.... there is nothing like the Jesus and Mary Chain.. thank God.

Look at it from my point of view...

There I was one night snuggled on the settee snoozing, all warm and comfortable when I was awoken by my OH playing that din 


It was truly horrible and they are a load of angsty miseries..

Okay they don't shout into the microphone that was unfair.... they just wail into it.

The Sex Pistols weren't really a manufactured boy band.  For one thing, the boy band concept didn't really exist then. 

McClaren could have made a lot more money by making their music more mainstream, picking less volatile, opinionated and aggressive personalities.  The Sex Pistols were never really directly marketed for their looks.  I doubt McLaren ever advised Johnny Rotten to work on his abs for the next video shoot/calendar or a choreographed dance routine.  Live performances were hardly likely to convince many mums to allow their 12 year old daughters to attend.

Singing, I think it's called.  While I agree it's introspective and angst ridden as all that type of music tends to be, clearly the bloke can sing to a reasonable standard and if you don't like the tune or instrumentation then you aren't going to like the song.  However, it's their own thing and their own written work.  That sort of music stands and falls on its musicianship and song writing rather than hype and getting the latest top producers to compensate for the vocalist's total lack of artistic vision.

That's fair enough - music is subjective and I think you always have to give credit for anyone that writes their own stuff even if you don't like it.

I dislike Eminen's stuff for example but the man is a clever writer I have to give him that. 

On the other side of the spectrum - people diss McFly for being a boy band pop group. BUT they write all their own stuff and play their own instruments and always perform live.
And yet they get slated... as far as I am concerned they write good disposable pop and there is nothing wrong with that.

Are you serious? That's one of the mostest, daftest most silly things I've ever read on the internet. 

At the time of the Sex Pistols the boy band didn't really exist?  

Barber Shop Quartets were around a few years before the Sexy Pistols, I believe.

And they made the ladies hair perm with no instruments! 

Seriously, I laughed my head off at the idea that boy bands were invented post-Pistols.  What nonsense. 

Just as a matter of interest, I was surprised last night that you put these three into the same sentence. I'm old enough to remember Elvis and apart from his exciting begining, before the Simon Cowells of the day grabbed him, I have to say that I will always associate him with one of the worst periods for popular music ever. Appalling songs, and even worse fillums were the order of the day. It didn't get better until the English bands  pointed the Americans in the right direction, and if I hear Tom Jones harping on about him again I will put my boot through the Electric Wireless.
Manufactured Boy Bands? How about The Monkees?

I want the painter to win.

I didn't[/technicality]   

The names I tossed off (ooer missus) were just the ones that staggered into my crappy brain first off.  There's plenty more - possibly more credible - examples.

As you say, The Monkees.  Great pop band.  Diane Ross can't write or play for shit.  Been on some frighteningly awesome records?  Damned tooting! 

It's interesting when the vocalist is the lyricist.   Means f**k all to me on the dancefloor though. 

Here's a thing.  One of the most amazing gigs I've ever been to was Kraftwerk. For many reasons.  It just was spine chilling.

Now that was 4 blokes in smart suits with laptops in front of them.  For all I know they were checking their emails for 2 hours.  Not a clue.  Impassive, stationary, no musical 'instruments' on show.   It was amazing. 

Best bit?  They buggered off and left 4 robots on stage to 'perform' a few songs.  Just perfect perfect perfect.

Nothing 'real' about it at all.  It was incredible. 

One is reminded of Bill Bailey doing "The Oakey Coakey" (or whatever it's called) in the style of Kraftwerk.

Oh now I like Kraftwerk,the original synthesiser dudes.Yes Joe, Bill Bailey did a "Homage" to them..as did "Father Ted" in a episode..Kling Klang music.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXa9tXcMhXQ

I am also old enough to remember Tangerine Dream.