quote:

Originally posted by madkitten:

quote:

Originally posted by electric6:
I think it's dead disrespectful to try to make people respect someone just coz you like them

Who siad i like him??? respect for the people who are upset

I respect all the upset people, in the world, like ever, ever, ever.

Its just sad when anyone has their life cut short Jade MJ whoever

quote:

Absoloutely ........................but people keep harping on about - if it was the bloke down the road he'd never have got away with it .Got away with what exactly ............sharing a bed with a kid - it's not against the law is it?

And for the record I obviously wouldn't have let my kids have any part of that ..........some parents did ........maybe they had ulterior motives .............who knows?

Parents can be groomed too

quote:

Originally posted by hal:

quote:

Originally posted by captain marbles:

quote:

Originally posted by Bagel Queen:

quote:

Originally posted by captain marbles:
I've no intention of disrespecting him if it causes needless offence but on the other hand I resent having my emotional response commandeered by others who take it for granted that I am grieving for someone I do not know.

best post since MJ died ...I have always said that I liked his music when he was with the Jackson 5 and I liked his music right up until the court case...I am not saying he was innocent and I am not saying he was guilty coz I dont personally know the man and I have no right to judge but he did fall off my pedastal and that is the only way I can describe it...and I respect the posts on here that want to respect him and I also respect the posts on here who do not respect because I respect peoples feelings wether I agree with them or not..thats the difference..accepting others views on here with respect..

I do object when others demand our grief Bagel. It's ours to offer not theirs to take.

Imo, one should respect death, give it time, don't think there was a demand for respect if there was, then it must be an emotional one and that should be taken into account.

I also lost my respect for him a long time ago, but I am uncomfortable with the blatant 'disrespect' for want of a better word. Same case with Jade, I did not like the woman nor respect her, but kept my mouth stump through out the process of others grieving for her.

A valid point hal but I think the demand for respect is in some ways a demand to share the grief. Opinions, like emotions, cant be turned on and off like taps.

quote:

Originally posted by Veggieburger:

quote:

Originally posted by Bagel Queen:
oh gawd I feel like I am in groundhog day ...*puts respect on by A franklin*

it's either deja vu or a glitch in the Matrix Bages

At least Ennis will be spared the next 20 pages by his breakdown

and compulsive veiwing

I meant compulsive viewing in respect of the nature of this thread..not ennis and his breakdown!

quote:

Originally posted by old hippy guy:
one thing I DO know is that at THIS moment in time the bloke in question doesnt give a TOSS about who does or doesnt respect him.

Yay!

quote:

Originally posted by Little Miss Spurs:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
If a crime was commited then they got an enormous, life-changing amount of money and a devastating revenge. That beats the sterile notion of justice in my mind, and I think most victims and their supporters want revenge rather than justice.

Sorry, imo thats total nonsense. No parent if they had anything about them would take money instead of justice. Noway. No how. Never.never.never. I have had this conversation with many of my friends and colleagues. We all have children We ALL without exception said the same. We would not accept a penny IF our child had been abused.

Blimey.

There's gonna be a lot of pissed off people when Thatcher shuffles off this mortal coil. The sound systems are already booked.

quote:

Originally posted by Soozy woo:

quote:

Originally posted by Queen of the High Teas:

quote:

Originally posted by Soozy woo:
I have read through some of this thread (not all of it). the way i see it is ......there really is a difference in sharing a bed for sleeping and a bed for sex. Why does it always follow that if you share a bed with someone that there is automatically sexual intent/desire/behaviour?

IMO ......there's nothing nicer than snuggling down with my grandchildren or brining them into bed with me if they've woken up upset or disturbed by a bad dream

I really dont claim to know what happened in MJ's bed but .............sharing a bed doesn't automatically make you a paedophile.

I agree that bed doesn't necessarily mean sexual activity but you snuggling down with your grandchildren is not the same as your grandchildren snuggling down with a 40 odd year old man who barely knows them is it?

I see your point but I dont think for one moment he was a 'normal' 40 year old ........he was a child at heart. personally I dont think he barely knew the kids involved ......they were like his mates .........if he barely knew them how in the hell did their parents let them stay over?

I'm sorry as I didn't avidly follow the MJ court case and I could be well out of order here but ...........hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I can't see him as a paedo myself - just a sad individual who was reliving a childhood that he never had.

That's my take on it too. Of course I don't know the facts...but I believe that he considered himself a child and that's why he did what he did. I don't believe there was anything more sinister behind it. When I was a kid I shared a bed with my parents (yes I know the relationship is different to a 40 year old non relative) but they both had their impulses (cringes at the thought ) but nowt happened. On the other hand I stood in a kitchen with a grandfather who couldn't keep his 'parts' to himself I forget what my point was

quote:

Originally posted by old hippy guy:
one thing I DO know is that at THIS moment in time the bloke in question doesnt give a TOSS about who does or doesnt respect him.

Indeed!

quote:

Originally posted by Little Miss Spurs:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Little Miss Spurs:
I also think that taking money instead of getting justice for your own child, if you truly believe such a crime was committed would not even enter your head. No matter how much you were offered.

If a crime was commited then they got an enormous, life-changing amount of money and a devastating revenge. That beats the sterile notion of justice in my mind, and I think most victims and their supporters want revenge rather than justice.

Sorry, imo thats total nonsense. No parent if they had anything about them would take money instead of justice. Noway. No how. Never.never.never. I have had this conversation with many of my friends and colleagues. We all have children We ALL without exception said the same. We would not accept a penny IF our child had been abused. [/QUOTE

Pragmatism in some case

quote:

Originally posted by fz:
There's gonna be a lot of pissed off people when Thatcher shuffles off this mortal coil. The sound systems are already booked.

WOW!!!!!!!! They'll be a whole lot of debating going on that day. I think I'll probably stay away for fear of offending.

quote:

Originally posted by fz:
There's gonna be a lot of pissed off people when Thatcher shuffles off this mortal coil. The sound systems are already booked.

Oooh you're living dangerously my friend.

ennis and I got forum lynched for joking about polishing our tap shoes and the like for when the glorious day national tragedy strikes.

I am now a totally reformed character and cannot even attempt disrespect without my conditioning chip giving me a hefty shock

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Little Miss Spurs:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
If a crime was commited then they got an enormous, life-changing amount of money and a devastating revenge. That beats the sterile notion of justice in my mind, and I think most victims and their supporters want revenge rather than justice.

Sorry, imo thats total nonsense. No parent if they had anything about them would take money instead of justice. Noway. No how. Never.never.never. I have had this conversation with many of my friends and colleagues. We all have children We ALL without exception said the same. We would not accept a penny IF our child had been abused.

Blimey.

Sorry, but its true. It'd be like saying; Sod what happened, let him get away with it. Just think what you could do with all that lovely money we can get out of him instead. Let him carry on doing it . Had it ever happened Im sure they would have wanted to make sure not only was justice done for their child, but to prevent it happening to another one. And Im also sure that by now, someone who was employed at the house, would have come forward. There are very few people that would do nothing if they knew children were being abused.

quote:

Originally posted by Little Miss Spurs:
There are very few people that would do nothing if they knew children were being abused.

I agree wholeheartedly with that.

The 'any friend of Pinochet's a friend of mine' brigade can post the tribute threads. I'll be celebrating with the great unwashed diesrespectful crew.

quote:

Originally posted by old hippy guy:

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:
Why is there only two options, respect and disrespect, where is the blatantly uninterested choice? I don't respect MJ but that doesn't mean I disrespect him, I just don't care.

with you on this one, yep he was 'talented' yes he was a pop icon, all very well IF you are interested in 'pop music' I never have been,
and for the life of me I cant understand the mass hysteria over his death, does the death of a pop star REALLY warant 2 DAYS of banket coverage by the major news channels???

Yes he was talented (without inverted commas) but for those who don't share the same taste in music, it's obviously "debatable".
The "mass hysteria" over his death, is evidence of the "majority" who have gravitated to the Man and his music for numerous reasons.

For example; some have fond memories of childhood attached to certain songs, some might remember when they were in love with a significant person during the time when a certain song was released - equally, some might remember breaking up with a significant person, some might have extracted a type of strength during a difficult period (for whatever reason) from his songs and his unique ability to express it the way they couldn't.

People's reasons are endless, but they "feel" attached to such a person, which for them becomes personal. OK, they don't "know" the person directly, but based on their own personal journey in life they feel as if they do. Regardless of who we admire, we all share some degree of sameness in our emotional or psychological attachment to that respective person, whether it's justified or not is a matter of "opinion".

The meaning of the term "respect" has been eroded as a result of been thrown about ad nauseam yes, but nevertheless, we ALL understand what it means when "we" want to attribute it to things or people that concern us. We won't all agree on the same issues, or share the same likes or even dislikes for that matter, but I think it's unfair for anyone to trivialise (not suggesting you are BTW) how others might feel or respond to tragic circumstances involving people they admire.

I honestly don't believe that every parent of every abused child would force their children to re-live their abuse on the witness stand.

quote:

Sorry, but its true. It'd be like saying; Sod what happened, let him get away with it. Just think what you could do with all that lovely money we can get out of him instead. Let him carry on doing it . Had it ever happened Im sure they would have wanted to make sure not only was justice done for their child, but to prevent it happening to another one. And Im also sure that by now, someone who was employed at the house, would have come forward. There are very few people that would do nothing if they knew children were being abused.

Or, take the money, ensure your child never has another worry...EVER, keep em the feck away from the abuser and not put them through a gruelling court battle?

Hmmm...

People are judging on what they'd do if it was Joe Bloggs down the street, not a hugely rich, influential mega-star with many, many friends in high places.

That changes the whole ball game.

aren't there ways for the child to give evidence, for example by video link etc, rather than them having to take the stand?

quote:

Originally posted by The Secretary:

quote:

Sorry, but its true. It'd be like saying; Sod what happened, let him get away with it. Just think what you could do with all that lovely money we can get out of him instead. Let him carry on doing it . Had it ever happened Im sure they would have wanted to make sure not only was justice done for their child, but to prevent it happening to another one. And Im also sure that by now, someone who was employed at the house, would have come forward. There are very few people that would do nothing if they knew children were being abused.

Or, take the money, ensure your child never has another worry...EVER, keep em the feck away from the abuser and not put them through a gruelling court battle?

Hmmm...

Yep, and forever think... he got away with it and could do it again!

quote:

Originally posted by Templetonpeck:
aren't there ways for the child to give evidence, for example by video link etc, rather than them having to take the stand?

I'm not aware of any that don't involve them re-living what happened to them.

quote:

Originally posted by Little Miss Spurs:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
Blimey.

Sorry, but its true. It'd be like saying; Sod what happened, let him get away with it. Just think what you could do with all that lovely money we can get out of him instead. Let him carry on doing it . Had it ever happened Im sure they would have wanted to make sure not only was justice done for their child, but to prevent it happening to another one. And Im also sure that by now, someone who was employed at the house, would have come forward. There are very few people that would do nothing if they knew children were being abused.

There's no need to keep apologising for your opinion. And it is just an opinion, not fact. Afterall, it's what actually happened with the parents in question that matters not what you and your group of friends might think or hope for. Either they set him up or he bought them off. If a crime was committed then no amount of justice would undo the fact of the crime. $22 million is an awful lot of money and I think a rational, possibly grasping, parent might well choose to be rich and wronged rather than poor and wronged and with a possible, but not certain conviction. One also has to remember that it was inevitable that MJ and his career would suffer and suffer horribly because of the allegations. As he did. I think someone could justify taking the money knowing that would happen.

quote:

Originally posted by Little Miss Spurs:

quote:

Originally posted by The Secretary:

quote:

Sorry, but its true. It'd be like saying; Sod what happened, let him get away with it. Just think what you could do with all that lovely money we can get out of him instead. Let him carry on doing it . Had it ever happened Im sure they would have wanted to make sure not only was justice done for their child, but to prevent it happening to another one. And Im also sure that by now, someone who was employed at the house, would have come forward. There are very few people that would do nothing if they knew children were being abused.

Or, take the money, ensure your child never has another worry...EVER, keep em the feck away from the abuser and not put them through a gruelling court battle?

Hmmm...

Yep, and forever think... he got away with it and could do it again!

Well I sure as hell wouldn't pitch my kids against the best lawyers money can buy and make them relive the ordeal, so don't include me in the 'every parent I know' gang.

quote:

Originally posted by Billie Jean:

quote:

Originally posted by Templetonpeck:
aren't there ways for the child to give evidence, for example by video link etc, rather than them having to take the stand?

I'm not aware of any that don't involve them re-living what happened to them.

Well no of course they'd have to tell what happened, that's the whole point of the court case...but I don't think it's done in the same cold 'facing everyone' scenario, it's done as sensitively as possible.

I'm trying to remember, did the first family take a case or just go to the police? I'm just wondering re the 'they didn't want their child to take the stand' side why they brought the case in the first place?

If I had chosen to have children over being a tennis circuit lesbian I wouldn't do that to my kids either.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Little Miss Spurs:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
Blimey.

Sorry, but its true. It'd be like saying; Sod what happened, let him get away with it. Just think what you could do with all that lovely money we can get out of him instead. Let him carry on doing it . Had it ever happened Im sure they would have wanted to make sure not only was justice done for their child, but to prevent it happening to another one. And Im also sure that by now, someone who was employed at the house, would have come forward. There are very few people that would do nothing if they knew children were being abused.

There's no need to keep apologising for your opinion. And it is just an opinion, not fact. Afterall, it's what actually happened with the parents in question that matters not what you and your group of friends might think or hope for. Either they set him up or he bought them off. If a crime was committed then no amount of justice would undo the fact of the crime. $22 million is an awful lot of money and I think a rational, possibly grasping, parent might well choose to be rich and wronged rather than poor and wronged but with a possible, but not certain conviction. One also has to remember that it was inevitable that MJ and his career would suffer and suffer horribly because of the allegations. As he did. I think someone could justify taking the money knowing that would happen.

Whatever you may think; I am saying personally as a mother of 3 I would fight till the bitter end if I knew someone had molested on of my children. If they still got away with it and I went through everything in court it would be very very hard to accept, but at least I would know in my heart that I had done everything possible to get justice. If I had taken the choice to accept money, knowing the person had done the crime, I could not truly look my child in the face and tell them "I did my best".

quote:

Originally posted by Soozy woo:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Queen of the High If an ordinary Joe who lived down the road acted like a man child, I would be very surprised to see people wanting their kids anywhere near him, let alone sharing a bed. QUOTE]


Absoloutely ........................but people keep harping on about - if it was the bloke down the road he'd never have got away with it .Got away with what exactly ............sharing a bed with a kid - it's not against the law is it?

And for the record I obviously wouldn't have let my kids have any part of that ..........some parents did ........maybe they had ulterior motives .............who knows?

I understand what you're saying and no, sharing a bed with a child is not against the law. However, I think that what people mean by 'Joe Shmoe wouldn't have got away with it' is more to do with moral judgement rather than legal. The thing is people feel as though they knew MJ because he lived so much of his life in the media but in reality, none of us knew the man, only the stuff that he either wanted us to know about or the salacious gossipy stuff that the tabloids printed. I doubt whether much of any of it bore resemblance to reality. But because we feel as though we understand MJ's child like persona because we've all indulged in a little amateur psychology about his upbringing etc. We feel as though we are able to judge his actions when in fact we are no more capable of justly doing that than we are of judging Joe Shmoe from down the road who may have had a traumatic childhood for all we know. The difference is if Joe Shmoe had done what MJ did, people would be much more wary because he would be a true stranger rather than a recognisable one. I don't know whether those kids parents had ulterior motives or whether they just felt as though they could trust him based on what the felt they knew about the man through his public persona. I suspect that both are true.

I am sure the family of Nicole Brown Simpson have great faith in the U.S justice system. It isn't infallible and it certainly isn't worth taking the chance with your child against the best lawyers money can buy.

quote:

Originally posted by Little Miss Spurs:
I could not truly look my child in the face

I'm not sure how any child could look Michael Jackson in the face without going on to have severe night terrors.

quote:

Originally posted by Little Miss Spurs:

quote:

Originally posted by The Secretary:

quote:

Sorry, but its true. It'd be like saying; Sod what happened, let him get away with it. Just think what you could do with all that lovely money we can get out of him instead. Let him carry on doing it . Had it ever happened Im sure they would have wanted to make sure not only was justice done for their child, but to prevent it happening to another one. And Im also sure that by now, someone who was employed at the house, would have come forward. There are very few people that would do nothing if they knew children were being abused.

Or, take the money, ensure your child never has another worry...EVER, keep em the feck away from the abuser and not put them through a gruelling court battle?

Hmmm...

Yep, and forever think... he got away with it and could do it again!

I agree with you. I'd want justice for my kid no matter what or who it was.

quote:

Originally posted by The Secretary:

quote:

Originally posted by Little Miss Spurs:

quote:

Originally posted by The Secretary:

quote:

Sorry, but its true. It'd be like saying; Sod what happened, let him get away with it. Just think what you could do with all that lovely money we can get out of him instead. Let him carry on doing it . Had it ever happened Im sure they would have wanted to make sure not only was justice done for their child, but to prevent it happening to another one. And Im also sure that by now, someone who was employed at the house, would have come forward. There are very few people that would do nothing if they knew children were being abused.

Or, take the money, ensure your child never has another worry...EVER, keep em the feck away from the abuser and not put them through a gruelling court battle?

Hmmm...

Yep, and forever think... he got away with it and could do it again!

Well I sure as hell wouldn't pitch my kids against the best lawyers money can buy and make them relive the ordeal, so don't include me in the 'every parent I know' gang.

So why then did they make the first move, knowing full well that would be the case?!

quote:

Originally posted by Little Miss Spurs:
So why then did they make the first move, knowing full well that would be the case?!

Maybe they just wanted to heal the worrrrrrrrrrrrld and make it a better plaaaaaaaace?

quote:

Originally posted by fz:
I am sure the family of Nicole Brown Simpson have great faith in the U.S justice system. It isn't infallible and it certainly isn't worth taking the chance with your child against the best lawyers money can buy.

If a crime was committed then I bet his people were around there arguing very slickly in favour of taking the money and making that very point that they could come out with nothing, a shattered reputation themselves, and no conviction at the end. I doubt it would have been MJ sidling up looking guilty holding a cheque book and a pleading look in his eye. Alternatively, if MJ was set up then the self-same people would be around there trying to gag the family for damage-limitation, knowing that all the weirdness of MJ's life would be dragged through the courts.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Queen of the High We feel as though we are able to judge his actions when in fact we are no more capable of justly doing that than we are of judging Joe Shmoe from down the road who may have had a traumatic childhood for all we know. The difference is if Joe Shmoe had done what MJ did, people would be much more wary because he would be a true stranger rather than a recognisable one. QUOTE]


Joe Schmoe may not have a house with a theme park in the garden or luxuries beyond belief. MJ shared a bed with kiddies .........that is all that has been proven ....nothing else.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by fz:
I am sure the family of Nicole Brown Simpson have great faith in the U.S justice system. It isn't infallible and it certainly isn't worth taking the chance with your child against the best lawyers money can buy.

If a crime was committed then I bet his people were around there arguing very slickly in favour of taking the money and making that very point that they could come out with nothing, a shattered reputation themselves, and no conviction at the end. I doubt it would have been MJ sidling up looking guilty holding a cheque book and a pleading look in his eye. Alternatively, if MJ was set up then the self-same people would be around there trying to gag the family for damage-limitation, knowing that all the weirdness of MJ's life would be dragged through the courts.

In the words of charlie.....egggxactllllley.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by fz:
I am sure the family of Nicole Brown Simpson have great faith in the U.S justice system. It isn't infallible and it certainly isn't worth taking the chance with your child against the best lawyers money can buy.

If a crime was committed then I bet his people were around there arguing very slickly in favour of taking the money and making that very point that they could come out with nothing, a shattered reputation themselves, and no conviction at the end. I doubt it would have been MJ sidling up looking guilty holding a cheque book and a pleading look in his eye. Alternatively, if MJ was set up then the self-same people would be around there trying to gag the family for damage-limitation, knowing that all the weirdness of MJ's life would be dragged through the courts.

or maybe...just MAYBE the whole thing was BS and the family took their money with glee?

quote:

Originally posted by Little Miss Spurs:

quote:

Originally posted by The Secretary:

quote:

Originally posted by Little Miss Spurs:

quote:

Originally posted by The Secretary:

quote:

Sorry, but its true. It'd be like saying; Sod what happened, let him get away with it. Just think what you could do with all that lovely money we can get out of him instead. Let him carry on doing it . Had it ever happened Im sure they would have wanted to make sure not only was justice done for their child, but to prevent it happening to another one. And Im also sure that by now, someone who was employed at the house, would have come forward. There are very few people that would do nothing if they knew children were being abused.

Or, take the money, ensure your child never has another worry...EVER, keep em the feck away from the abuser and not put them through a gruelling court battle?

Hmmm...

Yep, and forever think... he got away with it and could do it again!

Well I sure as hell wouldn't pitch my kids against the best lawyers money can buy and make them relive the ordeal, so don't include me in the 'every parent I know' gang.

So why then did they make the first move, knowing full well that would be the case?!

I can't speak for the parents involved, but personally, bringing the crime to the attention of the authorities isn't something I'd have to think twice about.

The choice of 22 megabucks or putting my child on the stand is a no brainer for me.

And yes, the OJ trial has been at the back of my mind during all the bleating of 'he was found innocent'.

quote:

Originally posted by Templetonpeck:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by fz:
I am sure the family of Nicole Brown Simpson have great faith in the U.S justice system. It isn't infallible and it certainly isn't worth taking the chance with your child against the best lawyers money can buy.

If a crime was committed then I bet his people were around there arguing very slickly in favour of taking the money and making that very point that they could come out with nothing, a shattered reputation themselves, and no conviction at the end. I doubt it would have been MJ sidling up looking guilty holding a cheque book and a pleading look in his eye. Alternatively, if MJ was set up then the self-same people would be around there trying to gag the family for damage-limitation, knowing that all the weirdness of MJ's life would be dragged through the courts.

or maybe...just MAYBE the whole thing was BS and the family took their money with glee?

In a similar vein, if you were not guilty of a crime would you pay gazillions to somebody in order to withdraw their claim, in full knowledge that shit sticks?