On listening to that piece of music one automatically thinks of Konrad Adenauer following that 'itler one, or Clem following Churchill, and concludes that Townshend wrote utter nonsense. However, if we look at the UK 1979-2010 and the USA from ... God knows when ... we conclude that Townshend was a brilliant prophet.

I bladdy love "The Who" even though half of them are dead.
When I get pissed of an evening, on goes the Who on the cd player.

In fact Labour inherited a strong London. The rest of us didn't feel very strong at all. Of course one of the problems with getting rid of all the industry and relying on that London is that when the world economy goes tits up, our service economy is shagged. (I think that's how J.M. Keynes would have put it)

For me it has to be a Labour government we can't afford to go back to the bad old days of Tory mismanagement of our economy. When Labour took over in 1997 we had the largest IMF International Monetary Fund, loan ever known. The Tories had squandered our wealth giving tax rebates to the richest people. Whatever problems people had with council properties at least we had plenty of Local Authority homes for young people starting off in life, they weren't forced to live with parents or find horrendous deposits to buy homes like they have to now. The councils weren't allowed to spend the money from the sales of council houses. It was a travesty. Don't be fooled by Tory promises and  scaremongering they are the ones to most feared.

well said Low and sadly all so very true

it warms me old cockles folks it really does, to see even NOW after, what has to be said, has been a pretty crapy  Labour government, the folk of this great country are STILL not ready to welcome Dave thatcher and his Eaton Mafia back, they are panicking  their tiny little Tory tits off,
they THOUGHT it would be a walk over, they SHOULD (if they have any chance of winning) be MILES ahead in the polls by now, and they are not,....it's gonna get proper interesting in the next couple of weeks as Dave swings from being the "tough guy" "I will be pick on them dirty unemployed" to I am NOT like that nasty thatcher woman I am the all new and nice cuddly Tory, look I even take my tie off to show you I am not a multi millionaire  Eaton "toff" I am an ordinary blokey bloke"
SORRY Dave, been there for 18 years, STILL GOT the T shirt,
perhaps in another 40 years or so when all of us who remember life under the Tories have gone eh?

Hey old hippy guy,


Nice to see you

Again a direct quote from The Guardian "Clarke, for example, says: "I passed on to Brown the strongest economy and the soundest public finances for a generation. Brown will pass on the bills of an unreformed public sector, a growing pension crisis and an increasing tax burden, which is undermining the strong economy he inherited. It remains an iron law of politics that the job of Conservative governments is to clear up the mess left by Labour governments."

Many seem to see this election as being a 'class' thing.  I don't and both my husband and myself were ordinary working people.  This country is in a terrible state, I think we need to try something different, and pretty soon.  Anyway that's my opinion and, as I usually do, I think its a good thing to have a different voice in this thread to show that there is more than one perspective on this election.

Lol

One would hope that their first job, in the absence of a Labour Government, would be to clear up the mess that they made of our industrial heartland.
I love Ken Clarke and his smoking, drinking, and jazz lifestyle, however he must be embarrassed by this poor script he's been given.

One thing I would say GJ is that my husband worked for the Post Office for many years.  It was Gordon Brown who years ago took money from their pension scheme (which was set up very well) and now that pension scheme is in all sorts of trouble.

That may be something specific to the Post Office pension scheme. Our scheme worked so well in spite of Brown and the pension holidays taken by the company that I was able to walk at 55. Having said that, I have spent most surplus cash on investments, and the more the Tories keep giving me, the more I will salt away in ISA's and ting. I most certainly willn't be wasting it on fripperies and tat. One might say, "Garage Joe! Why not give even more cash to charities?" I think that there are enough charity executives, earning 60,000 and 70,000 poonds, driving leather trimmed Jaguars about the place.
In conclusion, if you want a fairer society with distribution of money to where it is needed, vote Labour. If you want Mr and Mrs Joe to have even more surplus money to wheelbarrow away, vote for Cameron.

Me


Not listed as an option.

His  policy on pensions... and taking all that money from the pension schemes started the slide downwards and  has certainly impacted adversely on mine & Mr B's retirement.

Ditto  on both points Squiggle

I remember the state it was in during the last Tory administration and, while things aren't perfect now, they're a damn sight better than then!
The so-called 'strong economy' Ken Clark bangs on about only benefited a tiny proportion of the UK - if you didn't live the south east, as far as the Tories were concerned, you could go to hell.

Au contraire! The majority of pension money was invested in the market, which was riding high. Brown wrongly decided on a tax on what he saw as a surplus. Meanwhile companies realised that they didn't have to pay in millions to their pension funds because the market was out performing the need. Everyone forsaw the the next stockmarket plunge except the hopeless pension fund managers. Result= under funded pensions invested in the wrong place.

I have two really good works pensions which I could take mine when I was 50 years old, the other one is my husbands works widows pension,they go up along side inflation my pensions are Unilever I would say is one of the best  pensions to have....

I'm sorry , but with great respect Garage Joe,  you have no idea of my financial position. My husband and I are retired, and trust me, it has effected our occupational pensions......

That's unlucky. My Mum and Dad (still with us), and Mrs Joe and I all have occupational pensions and were all lucky to have final salary ones. If your occupational pension changed to a defined contribution one then that's hardly Brown's fault. Surely more to do with the company taking your deferred wages and adding 'em to their profit/loss account.

No GJ Gordon raided the pensions fund, took money out, he did it with many of the pension schemes.  There was a pension pot of money and it was quite healthy and this was raided by a huge amount.  My husband did have the final salary scheme but the Post Office today are still making noises today about having to reduce everybody's pension.

This is quoted byThis is Money

GORDON Brown was warned he would rob pension funds of nearly £12bn when he decided to bring in a tax on private pensions in 1997.

The Chancellor's raid on funds is widely blamed for creating the crisis which has left huge shortfalls in pension pots and forced hundreds of firms to wind up their final salary schemes.

Tony Blair is now considering raising retirement age to 67 or 68 to plug the gap left by Mr Brown's decision - which abolished tax relief on income from share dividends, a key source of cash for pension funds.

But Treasury documents, released following a Freedom of Information request by the Daily Mail, show Mr Brown was well aware of the devastating financial consequences this would have on those saving for their retirement.

Documents in the Treasury archive show the tax, introduced in the Chancellor's first Budget, could cut the income of private pension schemes by up to 10%.

It calculated that Mr Brown would be able to increase his own coffers, at the expense of savers, by at least £6.2bn in the first 20 months and £11.6bn over the first two and a half years.

Treasury officials were banking on a rise in the stock market to plug the gap left. Instead, share prices plummeted in 2001 and 2002 - leaving millions of workers facing the prospect of working longer to earn a decent retirement fund.

Experts believe the Treasury decision to target private pensions helped create the £75bn black hole in the private pensions schemes of Britain's top 100 companies.

Experts say that if the missing cash had been invested and earned income in the normal way, private pensions would be up to £100bn better off than they are today.

The Treasury refused to release the full background documents, memos and assessments behind the decision to tax pension funds on the grounds that 'there are obvious sensitivities about the release of this particular information'.

But it did provide computer links directly to the Treasury archive of the data behind Labour's first budget. The information, which has never been released, shows that in the period from July 1997 to April 1998 the elimination of the tax advantage enjoyed by pension funds would immediately hand Mr Brown £2.3bn.

Over the first full year, up to April 1999, his officials estimated he would be able to pocket a further £3.9bn that would have gone towards pensions, rising to £5.4bn the following year.

In the event, Mr Brown has earned even more than he expected. The dividend tax has created more income for Labour than almost any measure the Treasury has taken in the eight and half years that it has been in office.

The Treasury noted in advance of the 1997 budget that the removal of the tax benefit for pension funds would 'raise around £3,500m in a full year,' according to a Treasury background document. 'This is the equivalent to between 5% and 10% of pension schemes' total income,' the paper adds.

Note the Conservatives warned

Wasn't so funny for the postmen and women LowonIQ.

From the last bastion of Communism I give you the Daily Telegraph.....

Why is the Royal Mail pension deficit so large?

Independent pensions consultant John Ralfe said Royal Mail has "gambled on equities and lost". According to Mr Ralfe, Royal Mail has traditionally held up to 80pc worth of equities in its asset allocation, leaving it highly vulnerable to market fluctuations over the years.

Although Royal Mail dilluted its equity holding to about 30pc in 2007, Mr Ralfe says this was "too little too late".

You cannot deny the pension fund raids, my husband was working at Royal Mail when it happened.  All the postmen and women were up in arms but we were helpless, and so incidentally were Royal Mail.

I will re-quote a portion of the above, this is fact and cannot be argued away.

Experts believe the Treasury decision to target private pensions helped create the £75bn black hole in the private pensions schemes of Britain's top 100 companies.

Experts say that if the missing cash had been invested and earned income in the normal way, private pensions would be up to £100bn better off than they are today.

The Treasury refused to release the full background documents, memos and assessments behind the decision to tax pension funds on the grounds that 'there are obvious sensitivities about the release of this particular information'.

Not that he will ever admit to it.....or any of the other mistakes, he and Tony Blair's governments have made......

Far from being the financial saviour of the world Baz Gordon Brown was the architect of our current financial calamity.

That's my take on it too Squiggle.... and on a personal level, 13 years of Labour has done nothing for me.... and that's without Iraq!

I agree Baz Gordon Brown took a calculated gamble that the economy would be strong enough to replace what he took but it nosedived and WE LOST.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...soars-1trillion.html

It says there that each pension pot went down by 17 grand  Big deal! Furthermore, It's like saying if I didn't pay income tax over the last five years, I could have re-invested it and it would be worth a fortune. Every chancellor has to levy tax somewhere, if it doesn't come from there it comes from elsewhere.
If people are going to attack Gordon Brown then lets have some good reasoning. I'm annoyed that, not only have this government never apologised for Thatcherism and the wacky associated laissez faire market economy, they have positively encouraged it. They have never rebuilt our industry preferring instead to give all our cash to fat cats who then hide it in stealth funds, then they bailed businessmen out, and then gave them even more of our money. On a lesser scale they have given that London another nine billion. Yes! Nine billion pounds to waste on an event that no-one is intertested in.

Garage Joe on the contrary billions was raided from the Post Office Pension Fund alone and many other pension funds as well.  The reason for the closure of the final salary pension schemes, and I don't think there are any left now, is purely because of the action that was taken by Gordon Brown.  I will say again, Gordon Brown was warned by The Treasury of the potential danger of this action and took a gamble that the economy would pick up enough to cover it, it did not and we, ordinary members of the public, in every industry, are the people who have to pick up the bill.  It really is no good after 13 years of Labour rule to keep harping back to what happened before Labour came into power.  Are Labour supporters really so incapable of taking responsibility for the government that they voted into power?

It says there that each pension pot went down by 17 grand  Big deal!  Yes GJ I think it is a big deal when you are trying to manage on a pension and you don't have £17,000 you should have!

As you just gave a link rather than cutting and pasting GJ I thought it worthwhile printing up the following extract from the link you gave.

'The infamous tax raid on pension funds has been a major factor in the collapse of occupational pension provision in the private sector, while gold-plated public sector pensions have remained immune from necessary changes.

'It is not right for taxpayers to be subsidising million-pound retirement benefits for the public sector elite while seeing the value of their own pensions plummet, or in many cases not having a pension at all.'

Tory spokesman Chris Grayling said: 'In 1997 we had the strongest pension system in Europe. What Gordon Brown did, not just through his extraordinarily ill-judged tax raids but also with a raft of red tape regulating pension funds, was to substantially destroy this.'

Ros Altmann, a former pensions adviser to Tony Blair, said: 'Public sector pensions are being propped up by Alice in Wonderland economics. This administration will go down in history as decimating our once-great private pensions provision.'

I think that we may have different interpretations of the terms "Labour" and "the government that they voted into power!"  Just as Cameron will bring no change to current policies, we had no idea that this lot wouldn't change anything either. Gordon Brown on current showing wouldn't understand the philosophies of Labour policy if they jumped up and bit his arse. Most of us up here in the North East suspect that we have suffered 31 years of Thatcherism, and I think that we may be correct.

The 17 bags of sand are part of a pension pot which provide an annuity in the case of a DC pension. About £700 a year for a 60 yo female for example. It makes no difference in a DB pension.

I understand what you say, and I agree, I too don't think this is a Labour government in the sense of looking after the rights of the ordinary working person.  Unfortunately Gordon Brown is not a safe pair of hands to deal with the financial crisis he has created.  As I have said earlier in this thread we need a fresh take on this matter, if Gordon Brown returns to power there is every possibility that we will lose our current financial rating which will lead to higher repayment rates on our huge borrowing, and who knows what will follow on from there.

Well, as I said, I don't think that Brown created the economic problems but he certainly allowed them. But look at it this way, if he had put the brakes on (irresponsible) borrowing, we would have had accusations of socialist interference and nanny state-ism from Belfast to Bognor Regis.

I think the tides are turning against the Tories now.  Remarkable, a few weeks ago I thought they had this election wrapped up and in the bag.

The thing that disappoints me about Brown GJ is that for years he told us all how prudent he was, and we all believed it.  Turns out now that that is the last thing he is. 'Public sector pensions are being propped up by Alice in Wonderland economics. This administration will go down in history as decimating our once-great private pensions provision.' That's quite an indictment from a former pensions adviser to Tony Blair.

Indeed! Gotta go now. Night night Squiggle and look after yourself!

You are fighting a grand battle here squiggle, and if I could argue as elequently as you I would come in here and support you. As it is I just sit at home and nod at everything you post