quote:

Originally posted by luxor:

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Brothers Big Scam:
whats disgusting is the way we are being forever forced closer into hitlers dream of a european superstate by the neville chamberlins of our time.

Why not take time out to read a bit of history?
You may find that the national hero Churchill was behind the idea of a United Europe.

But like a lot of good ideas, on paper they look good, but in practice they are a disaster.

In my book a disaster might consist of, countries at war, cities being reduced to rubble, and genocide.
That's why Churchill thought a United Europe would be a good idea, to avoid the above like.
He wasn't to know that we would let in backward right wing governments from the other end of Europe. The re-emergence of fascism was never envisaged.

I've just whipped through a range of newspapers for the breadth of comment on the burning issues of the day.

The editorial in - get this - the Sun nails it with this:

Any vote is better than none, with the exception of those who think Hitler's Children - in the guise of the racist BNP - are the answer.

I am switching allegiance from the Morning Star forthwith

That was the purpose of the precursor to the EU: to tie France and Germany together through coal and steel to help avoid future wars in the heart of Western Europe.

The EU is sorely in need of restructuring but in principle it's a good idea provided it doesn't end up as a super-state. As long as it remains based on treaties between sovereign nations then it won't.

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:

quote:

Originally posted by luxor:

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Brothers Big Scam:
whats disgusting is the way we are being forever forced closer into hitlers dream of a european superstate by the neville chamberlins of our time.

Why not take time out to read a bit of history?
You may find that the national hero Churchill was behind the idea of a United Europe.

But like a lot of good ideas, on paper they look good, but in practice they are a disaster.

In my book a disaster might consist of, countries at war, cities being reduced to rubble, and genocide.
That's why Churchill thought a United Europe would be a good idea, to avoid the above like.
He wasn't to know that we would let in backward right wing governments from the other end of Europe. The re-emergence of fascism was never envisaged.

Who let in the 'backward right wing governments'?
That will be the political elite of Europe, who have never allowed the people of Europe a say in what is being done in their name. Something else Churchill would not have contemplated.

quote:

Originally posted by luxor:

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:

quote:

Originally posted by luxor:

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Brothers Big Scam:
whats disgusting is the way we are being forever forced closer into hitlers dream of a european superstate by the neville chamberlins of our time.

Why not take time out to read a bit of history?
You may find that the national hero Churchill was behind the idea of a United Europe.

But like a lot of good ideas, on paper they look good, but in practice they are a disaster.

In my book a disaster might consist of, countries at war, cities being reduced to rubble, and genocide.
That's why Churchill thought a United Europe would be a good idea, to avoid the above like.
He wasn't to know that we would let in backward right wing governments from the other end of Europe. The re-emergence of fascism was never envisaged.

Who let in the 'backward right wing governments'?
That will be the political elite of Europe, who have never allowed the people of Europe a say in what is being done in their name. Something else Churchill would not have contemplated.

correct.

quote:

Originally posted by Bigdaddyostrich:
I've just whipped through a range of newspapers for the breadth of comment on the burning issues of the day.

The editorial in - get this - the Sun nails it with this:

Any vote is better than none, with the exception of those who think Hitler's Children - in the guise of the racist BNP - are the answer.

I am switching allegiance from the Morning Star forthwith

Blimey! It almost hurts to agree with something in the SUn!

I feel passionately that voting should be compulsory, but with a 'none of the above' option for people who want to register a protest vote. Until then, I really don't think people who don't vote have any right to complain about the representatives they get.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
That was the purpose of the precursor to the EU: to tie France and Germany together through coal and steel to help avoid future wars in the heart of Western Europe.

The EU is sorely in need of restructuring but in principle it's a good idea provided it doesn't end up as a super-state. As long as it remains based on treaties between sovereign nations then it won't.

yes, the original treaty of rome was just a straightforward trade agreement, and those agreements grew to form the european economic community which is what we voted to join, but what the eu has become and its ever closer edging to a european superstate can only be seen as a precursor to a war in europe, no subjugation of nation states into a superstate has ever succeeded and an eu superstate formed by ignoring the wishes of the people of so many states within it is no different.

quote:

Originally posted by Growlybear:

quote:

Originally posted by Bigdaddyostrich:
I've just whipped through a range of newspapers for the breadth of comment on the burning issues of the day.

The editorial in - get this - the Sun nails it with this:

Any vote is better than none, with the exception of those who think Hitler's Children - in the guise of the racist BNP - are the answer.

I am switching allegiance from the Morning Star forthwith

Blimey! It almost hurts to agree with something in the SUn!

I feel passionately that voting should be compulsory, but with a 'none of the above' option for people who want to register a protest vote. Until then, I really don't think people who don't vote have any right to complain about the representatives they get.

Exactly. People who do not vote can not complain about the government we end up with.
That is why I vote, I like complaining even if I voted for the government of the day.

quote:

Originally posted by Bigdaddyostrich:
I've just whipped through a range of newspapers for the breadth of comment on the burning issues of the day.

The editorial in - get this - the Sun nails it with this:

Any vote is better than none, with the exception of those who think Hitler's Children - in the guise of the racist BNP - are the answer.

I am switching allegiance from the Morning Star forthwith

oh no, I agree with something written in the Sun

So easy , have known for the last couple of years whilst still in my teens who to vote for . Secretly keep up to date with things, no-one my age I know is interested though .

quote:

Originally posted by Big Brothers Big Scam:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
That was the purpose of the precursor to the EU: to tie France and Germany together through coal and steel to help avoid future wars in the heart of Western Europe.

The EU is sorely in need of restructuring but in principle it's a good idea provided it doesn't end up as a super-state. As long as it remains based on treaties between sovereign nations then it won't.

yes, the original treaty of rome was just a straightforward trade agreement, and those agreements grew to form the european economic community which is what we voted to join, but what the eu has become and its ever closer edging to a european superstate can only be seen as a precursor to a war in europe, no subjugation of nation states into a superstate has ever succeeded and an eu superstate formed by ignoring the wishes of the people of so many states within it is no different.

But the EEC was a supra-national organisation at the time the UK joined. At least as I understand it anyway.

The EU in principle is a good idea. There's good things in lending some of our sovereignty for more real power as a nation.

Withdrawing from the EU throws the baby out with the bath water. A federal super-state, I'd say, is a very bad idea. But a super-state, in parts, based on inter-governmental treaties could be a good thing after restructuring but we need to change it from the inside.

I trotted along to the polling station, settled down to read the ballot paper, and there were no details of what any of the independents stood for, so all my intentions to vote indepenent went up the swannee. Discounting the three main parties,the BNP and a couple of others, I ended up making a protest vote for Libertas.

quote:

Originally posted by Growlybear:
I feel passionately that voting should be compulsory, but with a 'none of the above' option for people who want to register a protest vote. Until then, I really don't think people who don't vote have any right to complain about the representatives they get.

Just write WANKERS over the ballot paper. If enough people do it then it's noticed and the numbers probably published.

quote:

Originally posted by darloboy07:
So easy , have known for the last couple of years whilst still in my teens who to vote for . Secretly keep up to date with things, no-one my age I know is interested though .

I blame the schools. When I were a lad, at 16 we had to sit and watch the Party and TUC Conferences and discuss the pros and cons of what was said. It all got quite heated but got you interested.

quote:

Originally posted by SazBomb:

oh no, I agree with something written in the Sun

Don't worry hun the real pisser is when you are on the tube and it stops for half an hour in a tunnel and you have nothing to read so you pick up someones discarded morning read to while away the time

And it's the Daily Mail

You can wash and wash but that dirt never comes off - Welcome to London

quote:

Originally posted by luxor:

quote:

Originally posted by darloboy07:
So easy , have known for the last couple of years whilst still in my teens who to vote for . Secretly keep up to date with things, no-one my age I know is interested though .

I blame the schools. When I were a lad, at 16 we had to sit and watch the Party and TUC Conferences and discuss the pros and cons of what was said. It all got quite heated but got you interested.

, schools never done anything to get us interested. Have had to keep up myself by watching news, talking to people, checking online etc and hearing others opinions which has worked out better . Just wish more was done to get more younger people interested as most just couldn't care less.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Growlybear:
I feel passionately that voting should be compulsory, but with a 'none of the above' option for people who want to register a protest vote. Until then, I really don't think people who don't vote have any right to complain about the representatives they get.

Just write WANKERS over the ballot paper. If enough people do it then it's noticed and the numbers probably published.

I do that most of the time tbh, well not the word wankers but the 'none of these candidates and/or this electoral system is acceptable to me' line.
Take me own marker pen as well coz the little pencils they give you don't make the point forcibly enough.
And they do have to declare the spoiled papers when they announce the count

quote:

Originally posted by Veggieburger:
And it's the Daily Mail

Blimey. Surely even talking to your fellow commuters is better than that!!

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

Blimey. Surely even talking to your fellow commuters is better than that!!

What kind of weirdo are you to suggest such an abomination?

quote:

Originally posted by darloboy07:

quote:

Originally posted by luxor:

quote:

Originally posted by darloboy07:
So easy , have known for the last couple of years whilst still in my teens who to vote for . Secretly keep up to date with things, no-one my age I know is interested though .

I blame the schools. When I were a lad, at 16 we had to sit and watch the Party and TUC Conferences and discuss the pros and cons of what was said. It all got quite heated but got you interested.

, schools never done anything to get us interested. Have had to keep up myself by watching news, talking to people, checking online etc and hearing others opinions which has worked out better . Just wish more was done to get more younger people interested as most just couldn't care less.

There should be an class on 'life after school' and if you do not pass it then you go back a year.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Brothers Big Scam:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
That was the purpose of the precursor to the EU: to tie France and Germany together through coal and steel to help avoid future wars in the heart of Western Europe.

The EU is sorely in need of restructuring but in principle it's a good idea provided it doesn't end up as a super-state. As long as it remains based on treaties between sovereign nations then it won't.

yes, the original treaty of rome was just a straightforward trade agreement, and those agreements grew to form the european economic community which is what we voted to join, but what the eu has become and its ever closer edging to a european superstate can only be seen as a precursor to a war in europe, no subjugation of nation states into a superstate has ever succeeded and an eu superstate formed by ignoring the wishes of the people of so many states within it is no different.

But the EEC was a supra-national organisation at the time the UK joined. At least as I understand it anyway.

The EU in principle is a good idea. There's good things in lending some of our sovereignty for more real power as a nation.

Withdrawing from the EU throws the baby out with the bath water. A federal super-state, I'd say, is a very bad idea. But a super-state, in parts, based on inter-governmental treaties could be a good thing after restructuring but we need to change it from the inside.

it was a trade agreement moderated by a council of ministers from each member of the economic community, it was not a political entity at that time but progressed that way with new treaty after treaty stripping away each nations own powers of government and eventually also their own monetary systems and gold reserves, the next nail in the coffin would have been the eu constitution effectively ending any countries rights to its own laws and making national legislatures nothing more than rubber stamping exercises, even defence would no longer be a national issue with a combined eu armed services, when that was put to a vote it was defeated and should have died but no it came back under a new name "lisbon treaty" as a treaty many countries (inc ours) didnt require it to have a referendum, luckily a few still did and again it was voted down, now its being pushed again under yet another name and they intend to keep doing it untill they get it through, at tat point its goodbye to all our nation states and hello to the united states of europe.

we need to fight that right upto our dying breaths because if we dont and allow it to happen our great grandchildren will be fighting a european civil war.

quote:

Originally posted by Bigdaddyostrich:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

Blimey. Surely even talking to your fellow commuters is better than that!!

What kind of weirdo are you to suggest such an abomination?

I smile at people on the tube when I'm in London! I think people must realise that I'm a visitor though as I don't get that horrified ohmigod a loony look or the quick look down back in response.

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Brothers Big Scam:
whats disgusting is the way we are being forever forced closer into hitlers dream of a european superstate by the neville chamberlins of our time.

Why not take time out to read a bit of history?
You may find that the national hero Churchill was behind the idea of a United Europe.

I may be wrong but I think I am quite safe in saying the "united Europe" Hitler had in mind is a million miles away from the Europe we have now,
I think a lot of peoples "problem" with Europe is that its left of centre,
something it certainly would NOT have been in the Europe Hitler wanted,

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Growlybear:
I feel passionately that voting should be compulsory, but with a 'none of the above' option for people who want to register a protest vote. Until then, I really don't think people who don't vote have any right to complain about the representatives they get.

Just write WANKERS over the ballot paper. If enough people do it then it's noticed and the numbers probably published.

Oh dear - I misread your post, and read it as 'just wank over the ballot paper' I was going to point out that the little polling booths don't really afford the privacy to do that

, that would just take ages though. Most embarassing bit about it was my dad catching me watching Question Time .

I never vote anymore but who are the UKIP, I've never heard of them until today.

quote:

Originally posted by Teo Puff:
I never vote anymore but who are the UKIP, I've never heard of them until today.

united kingdom independence party, another of the anti eu parties, they have several mep's and have previously had a few successes.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

I smile at people on the tube when I'm in London!

quote:

Originally posted by old hippy guy:

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Brothers Big Scam:
whats disgusting is the way we are being forever forced closer into hitlers dream of a european superstate by the neville chamberlins of our time.

Why not take time out to read a bit of history?
You may find that the national hero Churchill was behind the idea of a United Europe.

I may be wrong but I think I am quite safe in saying the "united Europe" Hitler had in mind is a million miles away from the Europe we have now,
I think a lot of peoples "problem" with Europe is that its left of centre,
something it certainly would NOT have been in the Europe Hitler wanted,

political leanings may be different as are the ways its being gone about but the outcome would still be the same, a single unelected government with a powerless but elected parliament to give the voters the impression that they have a say in anything, all pushing forward the one size fits all and damn you if it doesnt policies they are already pursuing.

quote:

Originally posted by Bigdaddyostrich:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

I smile at people on the tube when I'm in London!

*moves to a different carriage away from the nutter*

quote:

Originally posted by Big Brothers Big Scam:
they intend to keep doing it untill they get it through, at tat point its goodbye to all our nation states and hello to the united states of europe.

You're saying the Lisbon Treaty won't allow a nation state which has lent some of its sovereignty to the new EU to withdraw from the EU at some point in the future if it wishes?

quote:

Originally posted by Bigdaddyostrich:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

I smile at people on the tube when I'm in London!

we need that smiley

quote:

Originally posted by Big Brothers Big Scam:
political leanings may be different as are the ways its being gone about but the outcome would still be the same, a single unelected government with a powerless but elected parliament to give the voters the impression that they have a say in anything, all pushing forward the one size fits all and damn you if it doesnt policies they are already pursuing.

What about the European Parliament? In the past, it was mostly advisory. Later, it had some powers of veto over the executive, if I understand correctly. In the new EU, it will be co-existing in power with the executive, won't it? The European Parliament is directly elected (hence today's vote). Are you saying that won't be the case in future? I don't know offhand so this is a genuine question.

quote:

Originally posted by darloboy07:
Most embarassing bit about it was my dad catching me watching Question Time .

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Brothers Big Scam:
political leanings may be different as are the ways its being gone about but the outcome would still be the same, a single unelected government with a powerless but elected parliament to give the voters the impression that they have a say in anything, all pushing forward the one size fits all and damn you if it doesnt policies they are already pursuing.

What about the European Parliament? In the past, it was mostly advisory. Later, it had some powers of veto over the executive, if I understand correctly. In the new EU, it will be co-existing in power with the executive, won't it? The European Parliament is directly elected (hence today's vote). Are you saying that won't be the case in future? I don't know offhand so this is a genuine question.

in name it has some powers but in reality that power rests with the eu comission who arent elected, the eu constitution (or whatever they keep calling it) will allow for majority voting, which will end opt outs or rebates if the majority want it.

powers are not lent by nations to the eu they are given, how could a country withdraw from the euro and return to managing its own economy when all its gold reserves are transfered to the eu central bank, once you are in there is no way out, and they seem intent to keep trying even when they lose, likewise under the constitution we would no longer be in charge of our armed services, they would be under the control of the eu too and again without a budget of your own how would you withdraw from that since all your hardware will be eu owned and soldiers froom the uk will be eu soldires not british ones.

it is the complete subjugation of the nation states of europe.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Brothers Big Scam:
in name it has some powers but in reality that power rests with the eu comission who arent elected, the eu constitution (or whatever they keep calling it) will allow for majority voting, which will end opt outs or rebates if the majority want it.

powers are not lent by nations to the eu they are given, how could a country withdraw from the euro and return to managing its own economy when all its gold reserves are transfered to the eu central bank, once you are in there is no way out, and they seem intent to keep trying even when they lose, likewise under the constitution we would no longer be in charge of our armed services, they would be under the control of the eu too and again without a budget of your own how would you withdraw from that since all your hardware will be eu owned and soldiers froom the uk will be eu soldires not british ones.

it is the complete subjugation of the nation states of europe.

The treaty is not the constitution, it modifies the older treaties. That has some significance although I can see why people think it's just a rebranding.

I actually think the Eurozone may collapse shortly. Does the Lisbon Treaty require entry into the Eurozone?

Is that actually true about the national armies? I know the defence area is not subject to QMV or proposed to be so.

Does the Lisbon Treaty not formalise an exit route for EU member states which wish to leave? I think it does. It sounds like you think it will not be possible to leave. If the treaty does formalise an exit route as I suggest then why have it in there?

If a member state can actually leave the EU after the treaty is ratified then removing the possibility of opt-outs by QMV is fundamentally toothless.

bomp

I have voted for 'other' in both polls - certainly not for the BNP though.