I'm an atheist. There's no life after death, no sins being totted up for a final judgement, and no slates to wipe clean. Also, it's not a wicked world even if wicked things happen. The place is bloody amazing, truth be told.
As you all were.
quote:Originally posted by Queen of the High Teas:quote:Originally posted by pretty~cocoa~eyes:
I was thought to never speak ill of the dead no matter what because the wages of sin is death and after that their slate is wiped clean...
People should put themselves in other peoples shoes for a change maybe then can we progress together in this wicked world that we live in...
Not meaning to be provocative, and I am in no way suggesting that MJ should be categorised in this way, but by that reasoning wouldn't it also that mean that we should all respect the likes of Myrah Hindley and Adolf Hitler because they're dead?
a relative of mine died, I hated his guts, but I didn't parade that round at his funeral, I sat there all quiet and respected the rights of those around me who didn't know him like I did to mourn his death. I think the use of Myra Hindley and Hitler are a bit extreme, given what they did, but I'm just pointing out, sometimes people die that you don't like and whilst no one expects you to be bold over with fake grief, if there's something that some one posts that you find out of line, surely you're entitled to say it?
Goodness me MJ and Hitler? come on nowquote:Originally posted by Queen of the High Teas:quote:Originally posted by pretty~cocoa~eyes:
I was thought to never speak ill of the dead no matter what because the wages of sin is death and after that their slate is wiped clean...
People should put themselves in other peoples shoes for a change maybe then can we progress together in this wicked world that we live in...
Not meaning to be provocative, and I am in no way suggesting that MJ should be categorised in this way, but by that reasoning wouldn't it also that mean that we should all respect the likes of Myrah Hindley and Adolf Hitler because they're dead?
I think we should not speak ill of the dead and as a Christian,I do believe each individual will be judged after death on their activities on earth..quote:Originally posted by *Yogi Bear*:
i wouldn't start a thread demanding everyone feels the same way as i do about him i'm working on that one while he's alive
surely an exception can be made for James Blunt
quote:Originally posted by pretty~cocoa~eyes:Goodness me MJ and Hitler? come on nowquote:Originally posted by Queen of the High Teas:quote:Originally posted by pretty~cocoa~eyes:
I was thought to never speak ill of the dead no matter what because the wages of sin is death and after that their slate is wiped clean...
People should put themselves in other peoples shoes for a change maybe then can we progress together in this wicked world that we live in...
Not meaning to be provocative, and I am in no way suggesting that MJ should be categorised in this way, but by that reasoning wouldn't it also that mean that we should all respect the likes of Myrah Hindley and Adolf Hitler because they're dead?
Forgetting MJ for a minute, would you really not speak ill of people like Hitler? I'm trying hard to understand this respect for the dead thing
Yesquote:Originally posted by Mentalist:quote:Originally posted by pretty~cocoa~eyes:Goodness me MJ and Hitler? come on nowquote:Originally posted by Queen of the High Teas:quote:Originally posted by pretty~cocoa~eyes:
I was thought to never speak ill of the dead no matter what because the wages of sin is death and after that their slate is wiped clean...
People should put themselves in other peoples shoes for a change maybe then can we progress together in this wicked world that we live in...
Not meaning to be provocative, and I am in no way suggesting that MJ should be categorised in this way, but by that reasoning wouldn't it also that mean that we should all respect the likes of Myrah Hindley and Adolf Hitler because they're dead?
Forgetting MJ for a minute, would you really not speak ill of people like Hitler? I'm trying hard to understand this respect for the dead thing
quote:Originally posted by pretty~cocoa~eyes:Goodness me MJ and Hitler? come on nowquote:Originally posted by Queen of the High Teas:quote:Originally posted by pretty~cocoa~eyes:
I was thought to never speak ill of the dead no matter what because the wages of sin is death and after that their slate is wiped clean...
People should put themselves in other peoples shoes for a change maybe then can we progress together in this wicked world that we live in...
Not meaning to be provocative, and I am in no way suggesting that MJ should be categorised in this way, but by that reasoning wouldn't it also that mean that we should all respect the likes of Myrah Hindley and Adolf Hitler because they're dead?
PCE
remember that website i went on yesterday and i said theres a video of MJ's last moments?
im on it again-to download an album and someone has put a recording of a KKK sermon from yesterday-and its all about MJ
theyve quoted just a few lines of the sermon, and i tell ya what, they are sick evil b@stards
but we all know that anyway
quote:Originally posted by pretty~cocoa~eyes:Yesquote:Originally posted by Mentalist:quote:Originally posted by pretty~cocoa~eyes:Goodness me MJ and Hitler? come on nowquote:Originally posted by Queen of the High Teas:quote:Originally posted by pretty~cocoa~eyes:
I was thought to never speak ill of the dead no matter what because the wages of sin is death and after that their slate is wiped clean...
People should put themselves in other peoples shoes for a change maybe then can we progress together in this wicked world that we live in...
Not meaning to be provocative, and I am in no way suggesting that MJ should be categorised in this way, but by that reasoning wouldn't it also that mean that we should all respect the likes of Myrah Hindley and Adolf Hitler because they're dead?
Forgetting MJ for a minute, would you really not speak ill of people like Hitler? I'm trying hard to understand this respect for the dead thing
Wow, really, wow. You're a better than person than me, I have known people who have died personally and to be honest my opinion of them didn't change after they died, I still loathed them.
quote:Originally posted by WILDER X:
I think...
If you want to respect him and mourn him, thats fine, people should be able to do that without being ridiculed. It's not hard to show some restraint and not go into "tribute" threads posting jokes. If you want to do that why not make a thread to do that in , clearly titled so those who don't wish to see the jokes don't have to enter the thread.
I think it all boils down to respect. Personally I was brought up to respect the dead, and as kids Mum would make us stop in the street if a hearse went by, I still do that now. I've heard the argument that you can't mourn for someone you don't know but I don't think it's a case of mourning them, it's respecting the dead and those who they leave behind.
I also understand a lot of people lost respect for him a while ago, thats fine too and we should all learn to respect each others opinions and feelings. It's not diffuclt really but some seem to go out of their way to offend. That's my take on it anyway.
Well Said.
I'm still mourning the death of Bill Hicks 
He'd have a field day with all this
He'd have a field day with all this
quote:Originally posted by china:quote:Originally posted by pretty~cocoa~eyes:Goodness me MJ and Hitler? come on nowquote:Originally posted by Queen of the High Teas:quote:Originally posted by pretty~cocoa~eyes:
I was thought to never speak ill of the dead no matter what because the wages of sin is death and after that their slate is wiped clean...
People should put themselves in other peoples shoes for a change maybe then can we progress together in this wicked world that we live in...
Not meaning to be provocative, and I am in no way suggesting that MJ should be categorised in this way, but by that reasoning wouldn't it also that mean that we should all respect the likes of Myrah Hindley and Adolf Hitler because they're dead?
PCE
remember that website i went on yesterday and i said theres a video of MJ's last moments?
im on it again-to download an album and someone has put a recording of a KKK sermon from yesterday-and its all about MJ
theyve quoted just a few lines of the sermon, and i tell ya what, they are sick evil b@stards
but we all know that anyway
Luckily they are not representative of sane people, and should be ignored.
quote:Originally posted by Templetonpeck:
a relative of mine died, I hated his guts, but I didn't parade that round at his funeral, I sat there all quiet and respected the rights of those around me who didn't know him like I did to mourn his death.
Thing is, we're not at a funeral and I doubt anyone here actually knew him as a person or knows people who knew him as a person. This is a forum where people talk/type about stuff and then go away from their computers and live their real lives. There's no death ritual going on here that translates to how we formally ritualise death for people we know in the real world. It's celebrity news and current affairs. We're not trashing a funeral or shouting insults in the faces of his family and friends.
It's like Big Brother. Most people wouldn't go up to the people in the house (or past houses), or their families and friends, and say the sort of hideous stuff that gets said on here all the time. They're real people too, albeit not dead yet, and they can actually read what we wrote too if they have a mind to. If we ought to respect the deaths of remote celebrities here because of custom then we probably ought to start by respecting the feelings of the ordinary people in the house and their family and friends first. Afterall, that's a custom too in real life.
quote:Originally posted by Templetonpeck:quote:Originally posted by Queen of the High Teas:quote:Originally posted by pretty~cocoa~eyes:
I was thought to never speak ill of the dead no matter what because the wages of sin is death and after that their slate is wiped clean...
People should put themselves in other peoples shoes for a change maybe then can we progress together in this wicked world that we live in...
Not meaning to be provocative, and I am in no way suggesting that MJ should be categorised in this way, but by that reasoning wouldn't it also that mean that we should all respect the likes of Myrah Hindley and Adolf Hitler because they're dead?
a relative of mine died, I hated his guts, but I didn't parade that round at his funeral, I sat there all quiet and respected the rights of those around me who didn't know him like I did to mourn his death. I think the use of Myra Hindley and Hitler are a bit extreme, given what they did, but I'm just pointing out, sometimes people die that you don't like and whilst no one expects you to be bold over with fake grief, if there's something that some one posts that you find out of line, surely you're entitled to say it?
I get what you're saying..but I think the opposite can be true too.You can grieve for losing someone you admire and respect,but can still find humour in things.
I do admit my own humour is very dark and not to everyones taste tho.
quote:Originally posted by Daniel J*:quote:Originally posted by Templetonpeck:
a relative of mine died, I hated his guts, but I didn't parade that round at his funeral, I sat there all quiet and respected the rights of those around me who didn't know him like I did to mourn his death.
Thing is, we're not at a funeral and I doubt anyone here actually knew him as a person or knows people who knew him as a person. This is a forum where people talk/type about stuff and then go away from their computers and live their real lives. There's no death ritual going on here that translates to how we formally ritualise death for people we know in the real world. It's celebrity news and current affairs. We're not trashing a funeral or shouting insults in the faces of his family and friends.
It's like Big Brother. Most people wouldn't go up to the people in the house (or past houses), or their families and friends, and say the sort of hideous stuff that gets said on here all the time. They're real people too, albeit not dead yet, and they can actually read what we wrote too if they have a mind to. If we ought to respect the deaths of remote celebrities here because of custom then we probably ought to start by respecting the feelings of the ordinary people in the house and their family and friends first. Afterall, that's a custom too in real life.
Well if that's really true we can all post what the hell we like regardless of how we might offend who reads our words. But we can't. I'm not saying every one has to keep schtum unless they've something mournful to say, but the reason for the example i used was to illustrate that usually there's a period of time that passes before 'some' things should be said. And if you spot something that you believe is crossing a line why not point it out?
quote:Originally posted by Mazzystar:
I get what you're saying..but I think the opposite can be true too.You can grieve for losing someone you admire and respect,but can still find humour in things.
I do admit my own humour is very dark and not to everyones taste tho.
I'm all for the humour part, as my chuckles in another thread proved last night
quote:Originally posted by Templetonpeck:quote:Originally posted by Queen of the High Teas:quote:Originally posted by pretty~cocoa~eyes:
I was thought to never speak ill of the dead no matter what because the wages of sin is death and after that their slate is wiped clean...
People should put themselves in other peoples shoes for a change maybe then can we progress together in this wicked world that we live in...
Not meaning to be provocative, and I am in no way suggesting that MJ should be categorised in this way, but by that reasoning wouldn't it also that mean that we should all respect the likes of Myrah Hindley and Adolf Hitler because they're dead?
a relative of mine died, I hated his guts, but I didn't parade that round at his funeral, I sat there all quiet and respected the rights of those around me who didn't know him like I did to mourn his death. I think the use of Myra Hindley and Hitler are a bit extreme, given what they did, but I'm just pointing out, sometimes people die that you don't like and whilst no one expects you to be bold over with fake grief, if there's something that some one posts that you find out of line, surely you're entitled to say it?
Of course they are, but that should work both ways. If a relative of mine had died that I didn't like, I certainly wouldn't want to upset anyone who didn't feel the same way, so I would show my respect for THEM by just not going to the funeral. That way I wouldn't feel as though I was being expected to compromise my feelings, or theirs, by showing or hiding my true feelings. You're clearly a more magnanimous person than me. I don't really have feelings about MJ's death one way or another tbh. I think if he'd died 20 years ago I would have felt much sadder about it than I do today though. I certainly wouldn't deliberately try to upset anyone who felt they were affected by his death, but at the same time I think it's unfair to demand that we should all now show respect for someone just because others do. I agree that using Myrah and Adolf as examples was extreme but it was a reaction to PCE's statement that she was taught "to never speak ill of the dead no matter what because the wages of sin is death and after that their slate is wiped clean... " Which in my (highly irreligious) opinion is wrong. PCE clearly has a religious view on death and judgement, my view (shared I think by a few other FM's) is more humanist. As well as his deservedly fantastic musical reputation, MJ had a dubious, albeit unproven, reputation as far as children goes. For some the music will dominate their memory but for others it will be his sad and strange later personal life. For me it will be a combination of the two. MJ and his life is much too complicated a subject to be portrayed and judged in black and white terms (no pun intended, honestly!).
quote:Well if that's really true we can all post what the hell we like regardless of how we might offend who reads our words. But we can't. I'm not saying every one has to keep schtum unless they've something mournful to say, but the reason for the example i used was to illustrate that usually there's a period of time that passes before 'some' things should be said. And if you spot something that you believe is crossing a line why not point it out?
Oh I'm censoring myself, trust me
Some people are that sick in the head ... Im trying to avoid such blogs, some threads in here and even the news(with their hypocrisy)...quote:Originally posted by china:quote:Originally posted by pretty~cocoa~eyes:Goodness me MJ and Hitler? come on nowquote:Originally posted by Queen of the High Teas:quote:Originally posted by pretty~cocoa~eyes:
I was thought to never speak ill of the dead no matter what because the wages of sin is death and after that their slate is wiped clean...
People should put themselves in other peoples shoes for a change maybe then can we progress together in this wicked world that we live in...
Not meaning to be provocative, and I am in no way suggesting that MJ should be categorised in this way, but by that reasoning wouldn't it also that mean that we should all respect the likes of Myrah Hindley and Adolf Hitler because they're dead?
PCE
remember that website i went on yesterday and i said theres a video of MJ's last moments?
im on it again-to download an album and someone has put a recording of a KKK sermon from yesterday-and its all about MJ
theyve quoted just a few lines of the sermon, and i tell ya what, they are sick evil b@stards
but we all know that anyway
quote:Originally posted by Templetonpeck:
Well if that's really true we can all post what the hell we like regardless of how we might offend who reads our words. But we can't. I'm not saying every one has to keep schtum unless they've something mournful to say, but the reason for the example i used was to illustrate that usually there's a period of time that passes before 'some' things should be said. And if you spot something that you believe is crossing a line why not point it out?
That's probably where I go wrong then as I don't usually care if someone is offended by my views on a whole range of subjects.
It's their offence, not my actions, if you see what I mean. I rarely abuse people as individuals here though with ad hominem attacks, as that's offence I own myself and I'm responsible for it.quote:Originally posted by Queen of the High Teas:
Of course they are, but that should work both ways. If a relative of mine had died that I didn't like, I certainly wouldn't want to upset anyone who didn't feel the same way, so I would show my respect for THEM by just not going to the funeral. That way I wouldn't feel as though I was being expected to compromise my feelings, or theirs, by showing or hiding my true feelings. You're clearly a more magnanimous person than me. I don't really have feelings about MJ's death one way or another tbh. I think if he'd died 20 years ago I would have felt much sadder about it than I do today though. I certainly wouldn't deliberately try to upset anyone who felt they were affected by his death, but at the same time I think it's unfair to demand that we should all now show respect for someone just because others do. I agree that using Myrah and Adolf as examples was extreme but it was a reaction to PCE's statement that she was taught "to never speak ill of the dead no matter what because the wages of sin is death and after that their slate is wiped clean... " Which in my (highly irreligious) opinion is wrong. PCE clearly has a religious view on death and judgement, my view (shared I think by a few other FM's) is more humanist. As well as his deservedly fantastic musical reputation, MJ had a dubious, albeit unproven, reputation as far as children goes. For some the music will dominate their memory but for others it will be his sad and strange later personal life. For me it will be a combination of the two. MJ and his life is much too complicated a subject to be portrayed and judged in black and white terms (no pun intended, honestly!).
Of course there are those who see him in a different light, that's always going to happen. The way I see it we're all members here who post our opinions and whilst not everyone will agree with the MJ grieving, likewise not everyone will like some of the other comments made and they are perfectly within their rights to say it.
as for the funeral i had no choice but to go