quote:

Originally posted by jelly vodkafish:

quote:

Originally posted by Sunnie:

quote:

Originally posted by jelly vodkafish:

quote:

Originally posted by charmer:

all i know is they shouldnt have left 3 babies on there own-regardless of HOW near they were and they could see the room from where they sat

which begs the question: if they could see the room from where they were sitting, how did they miss the intruder climbing in through the window?

They couldn't see any part of the room from the Tapas Bar.

didn't they say they had a 'clear line of sight' from the bar to the room?

I can't understand why they didn't take the kids with them; it's not frowned upon out here like it is in Britain, kids go to the bar with their parents until late, it's part of the culture.

Selfish people

This is a picture from the Tapas Bar with the room circled, as far as I can see you can only see the top of the arch which has the unlocked door behind it.

quote:

Originally posted by Sir HP:

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
It was reported at the time that they wanted some adult time. Then they said that the intruder must have been watching them to know when the kids were alone. To me that says they left them every night.

Like you said...selfish people

I think it's pretty much accepted that they had done this night after night laying down a pattern. Personally I can really see appeal of having time away from the kids, but then I'm not a parent...

In which case, take an adult holiday with friends and leave the kids with a relative.

To me, a 'family holiday' implies you should put the family first.

Hello HP btw

quote:

Originally posted by Sir HP:

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
It was reported at the time that they wanted some adult time. Then they said that the intruder must have been watching them to know when the kids were alone. To me that says they left them every night.

Like you said...selfish people

I think it's pretty much accepted that they had done this night after night laying down a pattern. Personally I can really see appeal of having time away from the kids, but then I'm not a parent...

trust me, i love it when i get time to breathe away from my kids you need to ocassionally to keep your sanity. but EVERY night when on holiday?? and leaving them on their own? why take kids on an adult holiday? when my family went on holiday i dragged my brother along so at least 1 person was in the caravan whilst the other two got pissed

they both worked full time didn't they? so didn't they have an au pair or something? even if they didn't there were enough adults amoung the party to take it in turns to babysit.

quote:

Originally posted by Darthhoob:

quote:

Originally posted by Sir HP:

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
It was reported at the time that they wanted some adult time. Then they said that the intruder must have been watching them to know when the kids were alone. To me that says they left them every night.

Like you said...selfish people

I think it's pretty much accepted that they had done this night after night laying down a pattern. Personally I can really see appeal of having time away from the kids, but then I'm not a parent...

trust me, i love it when i get time to breathe away from my kids you need to ocassionally to keep your sanity. but EVERY night when on holiday?? and leaving them on their own? why take kids on an adult holiday? when my family went on holiday i dragged my brother along so at least 1 person was in the caravan whilst the other two got pissed

they both worked full time didn't they? so didn't they have an au pair or something? even if they didn't there were enough adults amoung the party to take it in turns to babysit.

i maybe wrong but im sure the place they stayed at offered a babysitting service..

quote:

Originally posted by jelly vodkafish:
In which case, take an adult holiday with friends and leave the kids with a relative.

To me, a 'family holiday' implies you should put the family first.

Hello HP btw

'ello vj

Actually I wouldn't mind a big holiday with all my mates where kids were invited so the parents could share the child care, but then at least one of my mates has said he'd be pissed off knowing we were all having fun with him some nights.

It is very sad when you have misguided, heartless people willing to cause grief to parents who have lost a child without 100% proof.

quote:

Originally posted by charmer:
i maybe wrong but im sure the place they stayed at offered a babysitting service..

It did, they said they didn't trust it

quote:

Originally posted by charmer:

quote:

Originally posted by Darthhoob:

quote:

Originally posted by Sir HP:

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
It was reported at the time that they wanted some adult time. Then they said that the intruder must have been watching them to know when the kids were alone. To me that says they left them every night.

Like you said...selfish people

I think it's pretty much accepted that they had done this night after night laying down a pattern. Personally I can really see appeal of having time away from the kids, but then I'm not a parent...

trust me, i love it when i get time to breathe away from my kids you need to ocassionally to keep your sanity. but EVERY night when on holiday?? and leaving them on their own? why take kids on an adult holiday? when my family went on holiday i dragged my brother along so at least 1 person was in the caravan whilst the other two got pissed

they both worked full time didn't they? so didn't they have an au pair or something? even if they didn't there were enough adults amoung the party to take it in turns to babysit.

i maybe wrong but im sure the place they stayed at offered a babysitting service..

tbh i wouldn't even trust that, but even that is miles better than leaving 3 kids under the age of 4 alone.

There have been unexplained findings, such as the blood in the car.

We may never know for sure.

Weren't some or one of the children left alone ill at the time....but still left alone? Madeleine asked her parents why they didn't come when they were crying the night before....and were still left alone the next night?

I think I'm finding it hard to get my head round this because it's just basic common sense. I've been told in the past on ch4.."everyone makes mistakes". Fair enough but the same mistakes everynight? All 9 adults making the same mistakes at the same time? Your child has told you they were scared yet they made the same "mistake" the very same night?

To put it bluntly....bullshit

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
Weren't some or one of the children left alone ill at the time....but still left alone? Madeleine asked her parents why they didn't come when they were crying the night before....and were still left alone the next night?

I think I'm finding it hard to get my head round this because it's just basic common sense. I've been told in the past on ch4.."everyone makes mistakes". Fair enough but the same mistakes everynight? All 9 adults making the same mistakes at the same time? Your child has told you they were scared yet they made the same "mistake" the very same night?

To put it bluntly....bullshit

one of the friends' kids were ill you're right.

you'd think doctors...and their friends...would know better.

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
Weren't some or one of the children left alone ill at the time....but still left alone? Madeleine asked her parents why they didn't come when they were crying the night before....and were still left alone the next night?

Personally I believe the 'OD of sedatives' theory, and that's possibly the reason why sedatives might have been administered

quote:

Originally posted by jelly vodkafish:

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
Weren't some or one of the children left alone ill at the time....but still left alone? Madeleine asked her parents why they didn't come when they were crying the night before....and were still left alone the next night?

Personally I believe the 'OD of sedatives' theory, and that's possibly the reason why sedatives might have been administered

It's more believable than the story they told about a creepy looking man hanging around the beach taking photos of thier kids. The same creepy man seen hanging around the complex. The same creepy man that nobody reported to anybody until after a child disappeared.

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
It's more believable than the story they told about a creepy looking man hanging around the beach taking photos of thier kids. The same creepy man seen hanging around the complex. The same creepy man that nobody reported to anybody until after a child disappeared.

More bizarrely Gerry McCann said when he went to check on the kids and looked through the door to check on them he had a feeling that someone was in the room with them - then he went back to the bar. What!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Sir HP:

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
It's more believable than the story they told about a creepy looking man hanging around the beach taking photos of thier kids. The same creepy man seen hanging around the complex. The same creepy man that nobody reported to anybody until after a child disappeared.

More bizarrely Gerry McCann said when he went to check on the kids and looked through the door to check on them he had a feeling that someone was in the room with them - then he went back to the bar. What!!!!!!!

Yep, I have read that too, unbelievable.

quote:

Originally posted by Sir HP:

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
It's more believable than the story they told about a creepy looking man hanging around the beach taking photos of thier kids. The same creepy man seen hanging around the complex. The same creepy man that nobody reported to anybody until after a child disappeared.

More bizarrely Gerry McCann said when he went to check on the kids and looked through the door to check on them he had a feeling that someone was in the room with them - then he went back to the bar. What!!!!!!!

The same creepy man one of the friends said they saw carrying a small child but didn't report it until days after she'd gone missing.

I refer you to my earlier blunt comment

quote:

Originally posted by Sir HP:

quote:

Originally posted by charmer:
i maybe wrong but im sure the place they stayed at offered a babysitting service..

It did, they said they didn't trust it

But didn't they leave the kids for much of the day, most days in the creche facility at the resort? At least I seem to recall a couple of people saying so but I haven't read a lot about this case
Surely it would have been the same workers who did the babysitting service on shift work.

quote:

Originally posted by Veggieburger:

quote:

Originally posted by Sir HP:

quote:

Originally posted by charmer:
i maybe wrong but im sure the place they stayed at offered a babysitting service..

It did, they said they didn't trust it

But didn't they leave the kids for much of the day, most days in the creche facility at the resort? At least I seem to recall a couple of people saying so but I haven't read a lot about this case
Surely it would have been the same workers who did the babysitting service on shift work.

Hi Veggie, they did leave the kids at the creche through the day (nothing wrong in that at all) and Kate did express to Jane Tanner she thought there was a risk leaving the kids alone but despite saying it once, Jane said (in her rogatory statement) nothing else was said about her (Kate's) worries and they decided the half hourly/hourly checks were enough.

quote:

Originally posted by Veggieburger:

quote:

Originally posted by Sir HP:

quote:

Originally posted by charmer:
i maybe wrong but im sure the place they stayed at offered a babysitting service..

It did, they said they didn't trust it

But didn't they leave the kids for much of the day, most days in the creche facility at the resort? At least I seem to recall a couple of people saying so but I haven't read a lot about this case
Surely it would have been the same workers who did the babysitting service on shift work.

Another thing I don't get. They left thier other kids with the creche service days after Maddy went missing. When exactly did they spend time with their kids? Creche during the day. Alone at night.

im pretty sure theres more to all this than the McCanns are letting on
that doesnt make them guilty of anything-theres just something theyre not telling us-cos maybe they think the public will deem them guilty..?
maybe theyre just guilty of being piss-poor parents despite their social status..and they dont want to admit to that..?
dont forget some people think different to us, some people will put their position/standing in the community before everything else

just another 'view' on why theyve kept so silent on some stuff

stranger things have happened at sea..whatever that means..!

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:

Another thing I don't get. They left thier other kids with the creche service days after Maddy went missing. When exactly did they spend time with their kids? Creche during the day. Alone at night.

You see that's what I thought too Cagney. I was a single parent to two boys so I totally get the parents needed adult time angle.
But these kids had parents who both worked full time so they saw very little of their parents during the normal working year. Wouldn't you have thought that the parents would have wanted to spend time with them on holiday?

I'm afraid that it adds to my negative views about the McCanns. At the risk of sounding like my mum, why oh why do people have children when they seem to want to spend so little time with them.

Hi Sunnie One thing I've often wondered is if Maddie woke up, realised they were alone and went to look for the parents. Anyone who has children knows that they do that.
Perhaps someone saw her wandering, picked her up and took her home.
Small hope I know

I agree Veggie.

See when this first happened I thought my feelings were because I was a mother with young kids etc. It's not though. Most people (kids or not) can see how basic common sense tells you this is all wrong. Others telling me that I should feel compassion for them. Why should I? I feel for that little girl.

Seems it's ok to like the McCanns but it's frowned upon to dislike them.

Well I understand the innocent until proven guilty angle too. Unfortunately we may never know what happened.

But to take those little ones on holiday and then not spend any time with them

But I do think that if they had been poor parents on benefit and done this then the press would have crucified them.

quote:

Originally posted by Veggieburger:
But I do think that if they had been poor parents on benefit and done this then the press would have crucified them.

As a more general point, my biggest problem with this whole story has been the unusual scale and nature of the press coverage.

I remember reading an article in a Scottish paper that listed all the other children that went missing in Britain the same year. Hundreds of children go missing every year, but most are runaways who turn-up shortly afterwards.
However, in 2007 there were 41 other British children who were listed as "long-term missing". Significantly, at least 3 of them were younger than Madeleine, and went missing before her. However, I hadn't heard of any of them, and I bet other FMs haven't either...

quote:

Originally posted by charmer:
im pretty sure theres more to all this than the McCanns are letting on
that doesnt make them guilty of anything-theres just something theyre not telling us-cos maybe they think the public will deem them guilty..?
maybe theyre just guilty of being piss-poor parents despite their social status..and they dont want to admit to that..?
dont forget some people think different to us, some people will put their position/standing in the community before everything else
just another 'view' on why theyve kept so silent on some stuff

stranger things have happened at sea..whatever that means..!

gerry mccanns status?
he's a nothing, i saw his rellies being interviewd, they wouldn't look outa place on the jezza kyle show.

quote:

Originally posted by ContessaQ:

quote:

Originally posted by charmer:
im pretty sure theres more to all this than the McCanns are letting on
that doesnt make them guilty of anything-theres just something theyre not telling us-cos maybe they think the public will deem them guilty..?
maybe theyre just guilty of being piss-poor parents despite their social status..and they dont want to admit to that..?
dont forget some people think different to us, some people will put their position/standing in the community before everything else
just another 'view' on why theyve kept so silent on some stuff

stranger things have happened at sea..whatever that means..!

gerry mccanns status?
he's a nothing, i saw his rellies being interviewd, they wouldn't look outa place on the jezza kyle show.

we think like you-he doesnt-a doc and all that-nice house etc..

quote:

Originally posted by charmer:

quote:

Originally posted by ContessaQ:

quote:

Originally posted by charmer:
im pretty sure theres more to all this than the McCanns are letting on
that doesnt make them guilty of anything-theres just something theyre not telling us-cos maybe they think the public will deem them guilty..?
maybe theyre just guilty of being piss-poor parents despite their social status..and they dont want to admit to that..?
dont forget some people think different to us, some people will put their position/standing in the community before everything else
just another 'view' on why theyve kept so silent on some stuff

stranger things have happened at sea..whatever that means..!

gerry mccanns status?
he's a nothing, i saw his rellies being interviewd, they wouldn't look outa place on the jezza kyle show.

we think like you-he doesnt-a doc and all that-nice house etc..

to some people that means a lot..sad but true

quote:

Originally posted by Veggieburger:

quote:

Originally posted by Sir HP:

quote:

Originally posted by charmer:
i maybe wrong but im sure the place they stayed at offered a babysitting service..

It did, they said they didn't trust it

But didn't they leave the kids for much of the day, most days in the creche facility at the resort? At least I seem to recall a couple of people saying so but I haven't read a lot about this case
Surely it would have been the same workers who did the babysitting service on shift work.

Yes, it was widely reported that they left the children at the creche every day it was open. It was closed just one day out of 7 and that was the only day they holidayed together as a family.

The staff fronm the creche ran the babysitting service, yet the McCanns said that the reason they didn't use the service was because they didn't want the children left with strangers. But they were NOT strangers to their children!

Were Sarah Payne's parents guilty, for allowing her to play out in a field with her siblings?

Were Ben Needham's grandparents guilty for allowing him to play at the front of the villa, while they made some lunch? They may even have had some wine with it!

I've been on family holidays and used creche facilities. I've sent my kids to the organised kids' clubs at resorts. I've used a baby listening service, which was no safer than parents checking the room every half an hour. I've put kids to bed in a caravan and had some drinks and food at nearby caravans. I've put kids to bed in a house and enjoyed a party at a barn in the same grounds, but too far away to hear if anyone was taking my kids.

And if you think that's bad, my parents and their generation must have been the worst parents ever!

quote:

Originally posted by Blizzie:
Were Sarah Payne's parents guilty, for allowing her to play out in a field with her siblings?

no

Were Ben Needham's grandparents guilty for allowing him to play at the front of the villa, while they made some lunch? They may even have had some wine with it!

no

I've been on family holidays and used creche facilities. I've sent my kids to the organised kids' clubs at resorts. I've used a baby listening service,

fine


which was no safer than parents checking the room every half an hour. I've put kids to bed in a caravan and had some drinks and food at nearby caravans. I've put kids to bed in a house and enjoyed a party at a barn in the same grounds, but too far away to hear if anyone was taking my kids.

wrong

And if you think that's bad, my parents and their generation must have been the worst parents ever!

Oh, and the sedatives theory has been checked, by testing the two younger childrens' hair, which was found to be drug free. So, unless they only sedated Madeleine, it is rubbish.

Thing is though Blizzie, all of us parents have done stuff that in another scenario could have had tragic consequences for our kids. There but for the grace of God etc.

I just question why anyone would take their kids away on holiday only to leave them at every available opportunity. It seems wrong to me

Like I said elsewhere my feeling is just that they were involved somehow and it is just a feeling.
I hope I'm wrong about them.

quote:

Originally posted by ContessaQ:

quote:

Originally posted by Blizzie:
Were Sarah Payne's parents guilty, for allowing her to play out in a field with her siblings?

no - Why not?

Were Ben Needham's grandparents guilty for allowing him to play at the front of the villa, while they made some lunch? They may even have had some wine with it!

no - Why not?
I've been on family holidays and used creche facilities. I've sent my kids to the organised kids' clubs at resorts. I've used a baby listening service,

fine - Not according to some on this thread!


which was no safer than parents checking the room every half an hour. I've put kids to bed in a caravan and had some drinks and food at nearby caravans. I've put kids to bed in a house and enjoyed a party at a barn in the same grounds, but too far away to hear if anyone was taking my kids.

wrong - I'll live with the guilt!
And if you think that's bad, my parents and their generation must have been the worst parents ever!

quote:

Originally posted by Blizzie:
Oh, and the sedatives theory has been checked, by testing the two younger childrens' hair, which was found to be drug free. So, unless they only sedated Madeleine, it is rubbish.

I'm no pathologist, but I still don't understand this.

How could testing the twins hair show up any drugs they may have been given? When were they tested? How long was it since the holiday? Hair takes a while to grow so if they were tested soon after the holiday surely the hair test would be negative if the hair hadn't been given time to grow?

quote:

Originally posted by Veggieburger:
Thing is though Blizzie, all of us parents have done stuff that in another scenario could have had tragic consequences for our kids. There but for the grace of God etc.

I just question why anyone would take their kids away on holiday only to leave them at every available opportunity. It seems wrong to me

Like I said elsewhere my feeling is just that they were involved somehow and it is just a feeling.
I hope I'm wrong about them.

I think my kids enjoyed the break from me, as much as I enjoyed actually being able to read a book by the pool for a couple of hours.

They did face painting and archery and various other activities.

Whatever people think of them as people, or as parents, if they did not harm Madeleine, can you imagine how these conspiracy theories hurt them, and will hurt her two siblings, when they are old enough to hear them?

quote:

Originally posted by Blizzie:

quote:

Originally posted by ContessaQ:

quote:

Originally posted by Blizzie:
Were Sarah Payne's parents guilty, for allowing her to play out in a field with her siblings?

no - Why not?

Were Ben Needham's grandparents guilty for allowing him to play at the front of the villa, while they made some lunch? They may even have had some wine with it!

no - Why not?
I've been on family holidays and used creche facilities. I've sent my kids to the organised kids' clubs at resorts. I've used a baby listening service,

fine - Not according to some on this thread!


which was no safer than parents checking the room every half an hour. I've put kids to bed in a caravan and had some drinks and food at nearby caravans. I've put kids to bed in a house and enjoyed a party at a barn in the same grounds, but too far away to hear if anyone was taking my kids.

wrong - I'll live with the guilt!
And if you think that's bad, my parents and their generation must have been the worst parents ever!

i tried to do the colour quoty thing but stuffed it up...
so i'll just answer

point 1
most kids are alloed out to play in daylight, speshly with older siblings.
point 2
he was outside, again in daylight.

point 3 kids are fine if under supervision.

point 4
thats up to you.

quote:

Originally posted by *BB*:
I'm no pathologist, but I still don't understand this.

How could testing the twins hair show up any drugs they may have been given? When were they tested? How long was it since the holiday? Hair takes a while to grow so if they were tested soon after the holiday surely the hair test would be negative if the hair hadn't been given time to grow?

I found this link Timesonline

Rachel Woods, the general manager of TrichoTech, a private toxicology laboratory that carries out tests on behalf of the Home Office, said: “Anything that enters the blood-stream also enters the root of hairs and stays in the same position as the hair grows. If there was nothing found in the hair, that’s pretty clear-cut.” David Gerrie, an analyst at Guy’s Hospital Medical Toxicology Unit, said: “Traces will remain in the hair until it falls out or is cut. Hair grows at about 1cm per month so to test for five months ago you would need a 5cm-long hair.”

quote:

Originally posted by Blizzie:

quote:

Originally posted by Veggieburger:
Thing is though Blizzie, all of us parents have done stuff that in another scenario could have had tragic consequences for our kids. There but for the grace of God etc.

I just question why anyone would take their kids away on holiday only to leave them at every available opportunity. It seems wrong to me

Like I said elsewhere my feeling is just that they were involved somehow and it is just a feeling.
I hope I'm wrong about them.

I think my kids enjoyed the break from me, as much as I enjoyed actually being able to read a book by the pool for a couple of hours.

They did face painting and archery and various other activities.

Whatever people think of them as people, or as parents, if they did not harm Madeleine, can you imagine how these conspiracy theories hurt them, and will hurt her two siblings, when they are old enough to hear them?

On the other hand what about if it does come out that they did do something to Madeline, when the twins are older? How are the twins going to feel then?

IMO (and as most of you know I am not a parent, would love to be..but that's another story).

If the children were using the crèche service, which were the same people as the babysitting service, then the children would know them and it would have been better than being left. I don't think personally I could relax if there was not a responsible adult that my children could call out too/get in touch with if there was a problem, so with at least 9 in the group, if they didn't feel the need for the babysitting, then surely one of the parents could have taken in turns at night to be near the children or even take the children to eat with them, Portuguese and Europeans in general have a different attitude, they would have welcomed the children into the bar and made a huge fuss of them

some of the children had been ill during the holiday and still had gone to the crèche service, I'm pretty certain that mum's on here would not have done that.

I think we will know what happened eventually and it will come out in the most surprising way, after all the twins as they get older will have recollections, it could yet come out what happened from them as they get older.

quote:

Originally posted by Blizzie:

quote:

Originally posted by *BB*:
I'm no pathologist, but I still don't understand this.

How could testing the twins hair show up any drugs they may have been given? When were they tested? How long was it since the holiday? Hair takes a while to grow so if they were tested soon after the holiday surely the hair test would be negative if the hair hadn't been given time to grow?

I found this link Timesonline

Rachel Woods, the general manager of TrichoTech, a private toxicology laboratory that carries out tests on behalf of the Home Office, said: “Anything that enters the blood-stream also enters the root of hairs and stays in the same position as the hair grows. If there was nothing found in the hair, that’s pretty clear-cut.” David Gerrie, an analyst at Guy’s Hospital Medical Toxicology Unit, said: “Traces will remain in the hair until it falls out or is cut. Hair grows at about 1cm per month so to test for five months ago you would need a 5cm-long hair.”

Thanks for the link Blizzie. It's still unclear though. Tests of the twins hair that was taken by the Portuguese police was alleged to have tested positive for drugs, yet the McCanns had a private testing done and that shows up as clear.

Which result do we believe? And who took the hair samples for the second private testing? That in itself could be got over by taking a hair sample from hair that had already grown from the root before the holiday. Was the second private testing done under proper police forensic conditions?

Too many questions remain unanswered.

and there's no way of beating the hair drug test, well almost no way