I agree with the message in Velvet's main post as well.
But I would take it further and say that life just seems to be cheap everywhere....

But then has it ever been any different?

Interesting point Issy. At least murder still makes the national news here a lot of the time. Heaven help us if we ever get to a point where it really is a mundane everyday occurance.
I think this case is particularly shocking because it seems motiveless and the idea that a group of people could kill someone this way for no reason is very difficult to get your head around. I'm probably not putting this right but surely at some point they should have realised that they could kill him and just stopped. It's not like firing a gun in a split second and it's done with no time for a second thought.
Not that I'm condoning shooting people btw but I imagine that it is easier in  moment of madness or rage to pull a trigger from a distance rather than to violently attack someone like this - it speaks of real dangerrous urges and lack of self control to me and that makes the people who did this a risk to the public who should be locked up for a lot longer than they got

As Issy so triumphantly pointed out earlier in this thread  -"GROUNDHOG DAY!".  She might of course not have been gloating when she posted that. But that was my personal pereception of what she said - maybe it was the laughing smiley she posted too that swung it for me. 

Balance. That's something sorely lacking in this place.  By no stretch of the imagination can this place be described as a public forum anymore.  Just a smallish group of people, with self-appointed "grandes dames" and "grands messieurs" who oversee the agenda here. PP can be so easy to ignore, if that's what people REALLY want to do.  It's as simple as that.

Then we see folks who (as far as I can tell) rarely post here taking the time and trouble to travel (in tandem) over from where they normally post. And, hey ho, they try to lighten the mood (aka: wind the situation up even more, IMO). 

Cagney has been right with every word she's posted in this discussion.  Especially when she protested that injecting 'humour' into a potentially serious thread was completely inappropriate.

So I'm saying "Groundhog Day" too - except I'm not adding a laughing smilie. I'll just throw in one of these  instead.

Hmm I can see how you would have thought that Foxfest ,,, to be honest when I posted it, it was more frustration that I felt than gloating.... it was like we were going round and round in circles.
Had there had been a "hysterically laughing" smiley I would have posted that instead. Do you see what I mean  - its that laugh you give when you feel a debate is going round in circles and you aren't getting anywhere so you laugh.

I certainly did not feel gloaty but that darn smiley does change the whole slant of it. 
Fact of the matter is I am going to take the advice that Cagney and others said -I just won't post with PP anymore.
Life really is too short.

Thanks for seeing it from my point of view, Issy. 

For what's it worth though, I've often seen you, Prom and others claiming that you won't get involved and post again in PP-related things (even in this thread). Yet, somehow, you always do

I still stand by my opinion of what this place is like nowadays (and it is just my opinion).

No No I mean it this time - it is futile and I do not want to fall out with people who I genuinely like

It will be hard cos I am an opinionated wotsit BUT I will do my best,....

Aren't we all? 

I hope you're not promising me anything, Issy  There's really no need.  Just keep telling yourself that and, who knows, maybe you'll crack it.  But as with any FORUM, people should just roll as they feel the need to. And people can just serenely ignore (unless it gets personal)

I will say this though...

As much as I have always disagreed with PP and always will, I have to say that people did defend her - all sorts of people who I like and respect. They were not defending her views - just her rights to them.
This I think says a lot about this place and it would be a worse place without it.

crime is crime...it can not and should not be seperated by colour,sexual orientation or anything else

That's what I am trying to say - the fact that the man was Indian is totally besides the point.  Bringing that fact into does (albeit very subtly) separate it by race.  Using his nationality to me does almost seems as though they are trying to indicate the attack did have a racist edge to it and from everything I have read so far that does not appear to be the case.  Never underestimate the power of a story like this to stir up racial tension.  Most of us won't see it as suchtensions don't really exist in our lives but it is out there and a story like this is very powerful.

Wow this was only on page 4 when I left it last night

For what it's worth, and it may be way past the debate stage now, when I read the OP my first thought was oh was it a racist attack until I read further down the page and somebody mentioned the Person was an Indian tourist which then made it clear to me why the Nationality was mentioned in the OP as that is the media norm when a Tourist gets attacked in this Country,.  maybe if it had been explained fully in the first instance non of this would have happened.. for that reason I blame Velvet for all of this   

[kidding btw ]

when I read the OP my first thought was oh was it a racist attack

Exactly - and that is nothing against the op as I have said once and will say again - he/she is only copying what they read in the relevant articles.

thing is PP I dont find it a problem that my first thought was oh dear a racist attack. .cos sadly it happens all too often...  but as I said I read further [I always read a whole thread before commenting in case I end up repeating what loads of others have said] and realised the fact it was an Overseas tourist hence the Nationality being mentioned  which is the norm

yeah you can see it like that pp.....but why should it not be reported the poor fella was indian??.....he was here visiting his relatives and had his life snatched away.....it's part of the events.....

the english woman murdered in south africa was reported as that..'an english woman'....that's what she was.an english woman abroad on her honeymoon..

we don't know if it was racially motivated.....the poor bloke may have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time......had he been 10 minutes later we might be reading a different story........lowlifes like the ones who kicked him to death aren't going to wait for someone of a particular colour to come by...they just want to commit violence.and they don't care who it is...black,white,chinese,polish......

yeah you can see it like that pp.....but why should it not be reported the poor fella was indian??.....he was here visiting his relatives and had his life snatched away.....it's part of the events.....

the english woman murdered in south africa was reported as that..'an english woman'....that's what she was.an english woman abroad on her honeymoon..

we don't know if it was racially motivated.....the poor bloke may have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time......had he been 10 minutes later we might be reading a different story........lowlifes like the ones who kicked him to death aren't going to wait for someone of a particular colour to come by...they just want to commit violence.and they don't care who it is...black,white,chinese,polish......

There should be no issue with reporting where the man was from - if only we lived in a perfect world.  For some people seeing this will stir up greater racial tension.  Like I say most of us don't see this on a daily basis as such tension does not feature in our lives - but for some people it does and in a very big way.  For example, you take a young man who has maybe already or is on the way to beng brainiwashed by extremists and you show him this story.  The only thibg he will see is "indian man" and "murdered by scottish youths" - to such a person the rest of the story os irrelevant.  It is extremely sad but it is the world we now live in where what may seem like an innocent factual comment to most can be incredibly provocative to some.  Albeit those who see it as a provocaton are in the minority - it does happen.
As for reporting the story of a british person being murdered/attacked in another country - that to me is slightly different - we are reporting what has happened to british citizens in a foreigh country and I am sure such a report took place in India following this mans murder.

should the british media not be able to report that a foreign visitor was murdered here??.........i can't say for definate cos i haven't read any newspapers from abroad.....but would the south african press not report that 'an english woman was murdered by a south african man'??

i think those who you mention who are swayed by extremists are already in such a place that mentioning this man's nationality is irrelevant........they already have the hate in place........could it fuel it?.possibly.......but i still think it was right to report it......otherwise we're pandering to those very people....scared to comment

the fact on this sad story is that a man from india visiting scotland was murdered...and i do think it should be reported as such in our media

This hypothetical man might have noticed the Sikh name of the victim and his Indian nationality, assuming that you're talking about Muslim extremism here, and found a relevancy completely opposite to the one you are assuming.

As spongey said, we shouldn't pander to such people, but should carry on reporting the facts.

Also, who's to say whether mentioning his nationality couldn't make some people more determined to bring up their kids to respect everyone and not behave like violent thugs. Too many parents leave it to chance, IMO, and don't realise how strong peer pressure is. I don't know about anyone else, but I always feel a kind of 'collective guilt', when I hear about the murder of someone visiting our shores. 

should the british media not be able to report that a foreign visitor was murdered here??.........i can't say for definate cos i haven't read any newspapers from abroad.....but would the south african press not report that 'an english woman was murdered by a south african man'??

I believe they should be able to report it however I elieve they should leave his nationality out of it.


i think those who you mention who are swayed by extremists are already in such a place that mentioning this man's nationality is irrelevant........they already have the hate in place........could it fuel it?.possibly.......but i still think it was right to report it......otherwise we're pandering to those very people....scared to comment

I agree that such people do already have the hate in place however I do believe that such a story could fuel their anger/hatred.  For me personally failing to report it isn't pandering to them - avoiding the situation gives them nothing to be angry about.  For me mentioning the nationality os pandering to them as it is giving them another reason to hate.

Oh, I'll assume you're talking about Indian Sikh extremism, then! 

Fecking PC gone mad....

Fecking PC gone mad....

How is it PC gone mad??

I'm really not being awkward, but I'm honestly failing to see the logic here: There's a tragic story of an Indian man on holiday in Scotland being brutally murdered by three youths and stating his nationality in press reports will apparently fuel greater racial tension and hatred? Why

There is no logic, Supes. 

You ignored all my other posts but picked up on this one....

I'm really not being awkward, but I'm honestly failing to see the logic here: There's a tragic story of an Indian man on holiday in Scotland being brutally murdered by three youths and stating his nationality in press reports will apparently fuel greater racial tension and hatred? Why

You possess the compassion needed to see this as a bad story regardless of race etc unfrtunately there are too many people in this world who don't possess that compassion - they only possess hate and for some specifically racial hate.  Such a story of British people murdering an Indian nationl can only serve to fuel this hate.

Thus spake Zarathustra...

See, my logic is that if there's any hatred to be had then it is likely be directed at the perpetrators of such a horrendous crime not the victim, (irrespective of anyones nationality)

but how far do we take it??.......should there be a complete blackout on reporting any non white/british people who are assaulted/raped/murdered just incase it upsets a few extremists?..i don't think it's right to do that...i don't think we should do that......why should we avoid the situation and bury our heads in the sand?.....non reporting of cases such as this is pandering to the people you were referring too...we can't say anything incase they get upset or angry.......surely that's just playing into their hands......?

after the london bombings and the terroist attacks in new york......people went about their business as usual in the following days......they were right too....we can not and should not be ruled by fear of what may or may not happen

You ignored all my other posts but picked up on this one.

I have only ignored the posts you made which had nothing to do with the topic - I have not intentionally ignored any posts that discuss the topic at hand.  If I have I apologise and feel free to point such posts out to me.

See, my logic is that if there's any hatred to be had then it is likely be directed at the perpetrators of such a horrendous crime not the victim, (irrespective of anyones nationality)

I'm not saying there would be any hatred towards the victim - I do believe there could be tension created between people who individually have absolutely nothing to do wth this crime but rather just come from the same countries etc.

The ones with my name on....

but how far do we take it??.......should there be a complete blackout on reporting any non white/british people who are assaulted/raped/murdered just incase it upsets a few extremists?..i don't think it's right to do that...i don't think we should do that......why should we avoid the situation and bury our heads in the sand?.....non reporting of cases such as this is pandering to the people you were referring too...we can't say anything incase they get upset or angry.......surely that's just playing into their hands......?

I believe extremism/hatred needs to be tackeld head on - how we do that I have no idea - however at the moment I don't believe there is anythign effective being done and for that reason I do believe we need to avoid giving them anything to possible further fuel theit hatred.

Indians? 

The ones with my name on....

No offence intended but I am not going to go back through the whole thread - if there is a prticular post you would like me to answer please feel free to point that out to me.

How would covering up hate crimes do that?

Surely, it would have the opposite effect? 

on the flip side then pp.......how do you feel about headlines that have appeared about a black man murdering a white man....or a black man raping a white girl?..should that not be reported either?......cos as much as there may or may not be groups of indian men seeking revenge on a white man for the fact a group of white thugs murdered an indian man......the same can be said of white men seeking revenge on a black man....it works both ways....

i just don't see why there should be avoidance in reporting the facts.we can't just say..'it shouldn't be reported incase some gangs of white blokes don't like it...or a gang of black lads won't like that..lets not say anything'......

on the flip side then pp.......how do you feel about headlines that have appeared about a black man murdering a white man....or a black man raping a white girl?..should that not be reported either?......cos as much as there may or may not be groups of indian men seeking revenge on a white man for the fact a group of white thugs murdered an indian man......the same can be said of white men seeking revenge on a black man....it works both ways....

I'd feel completely the same - report the story by all means but what need is there to report the coour of the perpertrator or the victims skin.

No your alright I can't be bothered....

Interestingly, in this story, I saw no reference to the colour of anyones skin, unless you count the photographs of the perpetrators. Do you think that the photographs of them should have not been included in the report?