Unless skin colour is relevant to the case, then I would agree that it shouldn't necessarily be mentioned, but the names and nationalities of the victims, or perpetrators, should not be covered up.

Even if the motives for doing so were good, it would almost definitely backfire and result in accusations of cover up.

Interestingly, in this story, I saw no reference to the colour of anyones skin, unless you count the photographs of the perpetrators. Do you think that the photographs of them should have not been included in the report?

You have taken this quote out of context here - this was in response to a post where skin colour wasn't mentioned.  I haven't said skin colour was an issue in the original story.

Yes I know. I was just interested, given that the photographs q clearly showed that the perpetrators were white and the text clearly identifies them as Scottish, whether in the interests of not fuelling racial hatred, you think that this detail/the pics of them should not have been included either?

is this cos you think that by saying a white man killed a black man....or a black man killed a white man that this could fuel racial hatred on either side?...cos if so then we're going back to burying our heads in the sand and being fearful of upsetting people and being scared of what may or may not happen........what about the man charged with murdering joanna yeates?...should he not be reported as a dutch national?or is that ok cos he's white and so was she?.i just don't see how it can be smokescreened out tbh.......

often the story will run with a picture of the victim......and a report that 'a group of white/black youths were seen running from the area' etc........should that not be reported either?......sometimes it's the only way the police can get leads is to publish this information........we can't just pretend it doesn't happen incase a group of people get upset by it

I think that is what PP is saying spongey, tbh I've got a bit lost in exactly what is being argued !!!

Caught you off guard eh, Stonks?  
There you were, having a 'passer-by' moment - and BAM!  

Yes I know. I was just interested, given that the photographs q clearly showed that the perpetrators were white and the text clearly identifies them as Scottish, whether in the interests of not fuelling racial hatred, you think that this detail/the pics of them should not have been included either?

I suppose you could say that of the victims ntionality hadn't been revealed this wouldn't really be an issue.

Should his name also have been censored?
Because, it makes it kind of obvious that he wasn't of Scottish heritage. 

is this cos you think that by saying a white man killed a black man....or a black man killed a white man that this could fuel racial hatred on either side?

Yes
...cos if so then we're going back to burying our heads in the sand and being fearful of upsetting people and being scared of what may or may not happen........what about the man charged with murdering joanna yeates?...should he not be reported as a dutch national?or is that ok cos he's white and so was she?.i just don't see how it can be smokescreened out tbh.......

I don't see what tealling us he is a Dutch national has achieved.
often the story will run with a picture of the victim......and a report that 'a group of white/black youths were seen running from the area' etc........should that not be reported either?......sometimes it's the only way the police can get leads is to publish this information........we can't just pretend it doesn't happen incase a group of people get upset by it
There is a difference between a report and a request by the police for information.  In the case of a plea for information obviously the more information that can be released the better.  Not ideal but in such cases a necessity

In the case of a victim (as in this case), I think it would have been totally disrespectful not to report his details.

In the case of a perpetrator, I don't see any advantage in not reporting his/her/their details. There have been nationalistic outpourings about failed Asylum Seekers, who have been convicted of crimes and then allowed to stay in the country, but these facts are always known locally and any misguided attempts by the media to cover up the facts, would merely add fuel to the fire, IMO.

unfortunately though pp even white against white or black against black crimes will still incite revenge attacks........gangs of youths on estates etc..one of them gets killed or assaulted by the rival gang.....the victims gang then go looking for revenge......way back on page 1 i posted about ralph millward....a homeless man from where i live who was beaten to death by 3 teenage boys....these boys are from an estate near me who were part of a gang called 'the bourne estate boiz'............not long afterwards another gang from another estate beat up another member of the bourne estate lot........then the bourne estate lot went seeking revenge.........

so by hiding race,nationality  etc wouldn't be an end to the problem......those who 'want' to know will know..they will find out whether it's reported or not..and they would've found out long before any report was published in the media.

so by hiding race,nationality  etc wouldn't be an end to the problem......those who 'want' to know will know..they will find out whether it's reported or not..and they would've found out long before any report was published in the media.

No of course it wouldn't end the problem - however I believe gang violence is a slightly different situation - not always based on race etc I'm sure there are instances where it is but I wouldn't consider it to be the overriding reason.

but still those who 'want' to know will know pp..............if this case hadn't been reported...you can bet your life that people would know about it..........and those who are of the mindset to carry out revenge attacks would be in that group who would know.so even by not covering it in the media,it isn't going to stop anything

i'd put my house on it that before these boys were even arrested word would have got round who they were and who they murdered

Well, at least the nastiness and personal comments have stopped, and there is some kind of 'grown-up' discussion going on  However PP, think I'll bail out of this now and you and I will just have to agree to disagree as it seems to me that what has ended up happening is precisely what you were accusing the newspaper of....making it about race when it wasn't!

but still those who 'want' to know will know pp..............if this case hadn't been reported...you can bet your life that people would know about it..........and those who are of the mindset to carry out revenge attacks would be in that group who would know.so even by not covering it in the media,it isn't going to stop anything

But I'm not necessarily sayin revenge attacks would take place in the local area.  I do understand what you are saying and I agree that such an attack could cause revenge attacks at a local level regardless of how it was reported however I am talking about the level of hatred at a national level.  In the local area this story will be a big story further afield that will not be the case - it's a very sad thing but further afield this is just another murder therefore bringing the nationality of the victim will give it greater precedence further afield.  Thus this will provoke a reaction in other areas that would not necessarily have been provoked had the nationality not been referred to.

Well, at least the nastiness and personal comments have stopped, and there is some kind of 'grown-up' discussion going on  However PP, think I'll bail out of this now and you and I will just have to agree to disagree as it seems to me that what has ended up happening is precisely what you were accusing the newspaper of....making it about race when it wasn't!

Fair enough - I agree to disagree with you.

Do you not see that covering up the facts, such as the victims nationality, would most likely cause further resentment amongst those sensitive to such issues?

In other words, it would have the exact same effect that you are trying to avoid.

I still stand by what I said earlier, that I see no reason whatsoever why a persons race should not be mentioned when reporting any news item, even if it IS an attack against someone.  And I think that people who make an issue out of it, cause more trouble than the people mentioning the persons race in the first place!  As the person mentioning the race are just reporting the facts, but the person saying 'there was no need to mention his race!' have absolutely no need to say that.  It can't possibly do anything other than cause conflict IMO.  What on earth is wrong with simply mentioning someone's race for goodness sake?  Saying 'why mention the race?' is just reaching too hard to try and find an issue where none exists.  

I still stand by what I said earlier, that I see no reason whatsoever why a persons race should not be mentioned when reporting any news item, even if it IS an attack against someone.  And I think that people who make an issue out of it, cause more trouble than the people mentioning the persons race in the first place!  As the person mentioning the race are just reporting the facts, but the person saying 'there was no need to mention his race!' have absolutely no need to say that.  It can't possibly do anything other than cause conflict IMO.  What on earth is wrong with simply mentioning someone's race for goodness sake?  Saying 'why mention the race?' is just reaching too hard to try and find an issue where none exists.  

I have answered that question frequently on this thread. I also find your tone here rather argumentative and for that reason I will expand no further.

No I am certainly not being argumentative PP, no more than anyone else anyway, and certainly no more than you.   I am just putting my point of view on here, that I think that anyone saying that it's wrong and bad to mention someones race, is trying to find an issue where there is not one. 

This is a debate supposedly, and I have thrown my views in the mix and you're refusing to respond to my perfectly valid points by accusing me of being 'argumentative.'  Words fail me frankly .  I actually cannot believe your post to be honest and am astounded by it.  I say something you don't like and you refuse to answer and accuse me of being argumentative!

I am finished on this thread now as I have made my point.   And with a response like the one you have just given, I see little point in continuing, as this is not a valid debate now.

This is a debate supposedly, and I have thrown my views in the mix and you're refusing to respond to my perfectly valid points by accusing me of being 'argumentative.'  Words fail me frankly .  I actually cannot believe your post to be honest and am astounded by it.  I say something you don't like and you refuse to answer and accuse me of being argumentative!

I am not refusing the question - I have already answered the question mny times.

No you haven't.

You have refused to acknowledge that your solution would actually make matters worse for race relations, by covering up the facts of a crime.

but we don't know that......we can't say it definitely will provoke such a reaction........and for me it can't not be reported on the off chance.........i don't think say for instance if a group of indian men murdered a white man in plymouth tonight we could hand on heart say...'well that's cos of the story from paisley'......

No we could never say 100% that was the reason - unless someone openly admitted it.
i'm a little confused cos you say locally it will be big news...but further afield it won't be........it'll be 'just another murder'.....but then say cos his nationality was mentioned it will be big news??........

I'm not saying it will be a big story because of that just that it would have more of an impact on people who already posses unhealthy levels of hate.

i'm pretty sure most people across the country have read the story and regardless of their race have felt sick to their stomachs that an innocent man was murdered by a group of scumbags
Most people are - extremsts are a minority but they have a big impact

Especially if we pander to them, or give them more reasons to hate, by covering up facts.

so we bow down to them incase of offence?...i really don't see that as a way forward...they are as you say a minority....why toe their line incase they get upset?...

surely the way forward is to report these facts.....not hide them

so we bow down to them incase of offence?...i really don't see that as a way forward...they are as you say a minority....why toe their line incase they get upset?...

surely the way forward is to report these facts.....not hide them

I wouldn't say it was in case of offence - as I said earlier we need to get rid of the hatred but nobody seems to know how to tackle it therefore giving them no reason to hate could work as a temporary measure - addding the mand nationality made no difference to the story therefore I don't really see what the issue with omitting it would be.

they'll still hate regardless of whether a nationality is published or not though pp......not reporting these things won't make them not hate anymore.it'd be nice if it did....but i honestly can't see it.....it's far more deep rooted i think

anyways.gotta go get dinner organised and get my stuff ready for work and fit in a bath before dancing on ice!.been good having a chin wag with you .......

It may cause a reaction, it may not. Not all violent crimes involving different nationalities bring on revenge attacks.

If the victim were a member of my family and had been murdered abroad, least of all in these circumstances, I would be extremely upset if some of his or her details had been omitted from the report because it wouldn't have been seen as a matter of importance or significance, or even worse, to prevent some kind of widespread panic.

Covering up facts like this would only add to the 'hate'.

Do you not see that sweeping stuff like this under the carpet would just become a new conspiracy theory and people would claim that hate crimes were being deliberately covered up?

Blizz'ard

PP's "logic" is rather simplistic I have to say.I hope most folk out there are above such base feelings of "revenge" .I think they are.

I agree .............the thing is - some people refuse to listen.

How can you possibly hide the facts of this story because it might upset some people? Facts are facts ..........an Indian man visiting this country was murdered ....................to report it any other way would be concealing the truth. Once we go down the route of hiding the truth in fear of offending - it leaves the doors open to all kinds of stuff.

Once we go down the route of hiding the truth in fear of offending - it leaves the doors open to all kinds of stuff.

It's not really a case of being "in fear of offending"

Thank you Smarting, and Soozy. 

I love a brick wall! 

col - I'll miss you   

Me too