Dame-Ann-Average I think the following 2 quotes puts things into perspective

In 1997, when Labour came to power, £93billion was spent on social security benefits, but by next year it will be £ 193billion, more than doubling in 13 years.

Policy Exchange used official Government figures and projections from Alistair Darling's Budget and found that the six million jobless mark will be passed some time this month.

The number could even be higher, as with the exception of Jobseeker's Allowance the figures for benefit payments have not been updated since February.

Figures have been released today which claim to show that the number of people unemployed in the UK has fallen and show a jobless rate of 7.8% with total unemployment standing at 2.45 million for the three months to January. So down 33,000 on the figure for the previous three months.

However a quick look at the ONS data reveals the smoke and mirrors. The number of people in work actually fell in the quarter, by 54,000 to 28.86 million. So how is it that both the number of people in work and the number of people out of work fell, did I miss a plague, a famine, a third world war? For only a massive reduction in the population could cause this surely.

Well no actually the ONS has the answer "unemployment and employment were both falling because of a rising number of people being classed as economically inactive. This category includes students and those on long-term sick leave, as well as those who have stopped looking for a job."

Ah, so that's it, unemployment has fallen because people have stopped looking for a job. FFS!

Long-term unemployment, covering those out of work for more than a year, rose by 61,000 to 687,000 a massive quarterly rise of almost 10%!

The lesson is - with this government - always read the fine print.

Also Under Margaret Thatcher's government the jobless total never got above 4.9million, despite headline unemployment rates of more than three million. Critics accused Labour of concealing the true scale of unemployment by moving people on to other benefits.

Frau Koeln

Excellant squiggle. I hope so too. I really don`t know much about the blue badge qualification. I only know that a DLA award enhances the chance of it being granted. I`m glad to hear otherwise.

 Cologne I am so sorry to hear you have been ill my sister had an awful time filling in the forms to claim DLA she failed twice as she was not filling them in properly,she just gave up in the end she can barely walk and has so many health problems,my other sister found this place I dont know who it was they went to see but they help people fill in these forms properly as they are a nightmare,she got awarded and also got some back money from the date the forms were sent,I hope you can get things sorted cologne take care

DLA forms are purposefully complicated. The irony would be laughable if it wasn`t so real.

Mr Baz has a a blue badge.... but does not get DLA..... but did have his doctors support on this..... hope that helps.

I'm not saying the situation is great Squiggle and we can all quote from various sources that will contradict each other, depending who we support. I try to not quote from Labour sources, I vote through personal experience rather that quotes.

But here are a couple, it depends on who we believe in and we are going to have to agree to disagree

 And you know the myth I mean.   You know, there is loads of ‘hidden unemployment‘ that reflects some sort of Labour fiddle, taking the gloss out of the frankly wonderful unemployment figures (certainly compared to the gleeful alarmism of the Conservative press last summer).

Here is the TUC’s graph-strewn reply.

Eight million economically inactive people in 2010 simply doesn’t mean what it did in the 1990s, let alone the 1980s or 1970s. If we ask what proportion of working age people are economically inactive we get quite a different figure … Compared with the levels reached in the 70s and 80s recession (and, to a lesser extent, the 90s recession) current levels look comparatively respectable. Indeed, the latest figure, 21.5% in Nov – Jan 2010, is still very slightly lower than the 21.6% level inherited by the current government in Mar – May 1997.

 Thatcher refused to use the internationally recognised ILO information during her reign as it would have made the unemployment situtation look even worse.

Speaking from my personal experience it's not great, but far better than it was under the last Tory goverment.

Dame Anne, my mother had early onset Alzheimers in her 50's too

Thanks Baz and here is one for you, because I know what you must have went through  it's so awful

So what you are saying is that even though there are millions out of work somehow it doesn't mean quite the same as when fewer millions were out of work under the Conservatives?

The quote is saying that the way we compile the statistics has changed over the decades.

I think Dame Annes point however was that anyone can prove anything with statistics, especially if they have a strong enough motive. I think we have to be careful how we interpret our sources

I am a Labour supporter but I still read publications supporting Labour with an open mind. It's very difficult to find impartial reporting these days.

I don't think quoting from sources that favour a single party is helpful. Especially when the author uses the term "FFS".

Duckypup I am very careful about my sources.  I quite often quote from The Guardian and I never quote from 'Tory' sources.  Having said that, it isn't about quoting it is about the facts underlining the sources quoted.  It is the truth that after 13 years of Labour rule, which was greeted with such wild optimisim, this country has never ever been in such a mess.  And sadly there are some who are still trying to blame the Conservatives for this.

The Citizens' Advice Bureau usually have someone who can help with the completion of DLA forms.  Some branches can also arrange a home visit for people who are unable to visit the bureau

The quote you mentioned was from a neutral source, not a Conservative source and in the circumstances with the facts it was stating FFS was, I think, quite restrained.

Your very long quote on the previous page is from the Red Rag...a website that backs the conservative. >>>>LINK

You only have to note the immotive language to know it isn't impartial.

The thing is Squiggle everything that is said in here as we debate is opinion NOT fact, no matter how many times you insist it is.  You say "It is the truth that after 13 years of Labour rule, which was greeted with such wild optimisim, this country has never ever been in such a mess".... but I disagree. That is YOUR truth (opinion) not mine.

Not THE Conservatives.....but in no way neutral.

Quote from the top of their page...

The Red Rag: Independent conservative political commentary.

I'm not getting at you Squiggle....quote from where ever you like...just don't try and parade it as fact.

I mean it was worse in a tory government i my personal experience and that's what I will be voting on.

That's exactly what I meant Ducky, for every quote you find about every party you can find a quote disputing that fact. I like you tend not to believe everything I read

As I have said before I do always try to quote from non-conservative sources.  As also stated I mostly quote from The Guardian.  You are right in this case, looking at the site in question although calling itself independent it is in fact from a conservative point of view.  A fact which, if I had realised, I would not have quoted from.  But the underlying theme is the same, it is my opinion, one which is shared now, it would seem, by many people in this country. 

OK to state it clearly we have never before seen such debt.  It is a frightening level of debt.  It is my view that for the last 13 years we have seen a level of incompetence which is breathtaking.  I know that clashes with the view of the vast majority who are on this thread but that is your view and I am equally entitled to mine.  It is also the view that I have seen expressed by many on here that Labour did not inherit an economy which was very strong only to reduce it to its present very weakened state.  All of which is blamed on an international situation totally out of its control.  Well if Gordon Brown is the prudent financier that he tells us it is then why did he not regulate the banks and prevent this from occurring.  Time will tell and we will find out on Thursday whether Labour has the support in the country that it has on this forum.  Good luck to each and every one of us, whichever way we vote.

No problem


No one has ever said otherwise. We're debating that's all..... we're not supposed to all agree, that would lead to a dictatorship of sorts.

Whatever happens on Thursday, it is the way of politics that opinion changes over time....and a change of party is always inevitable eventually. I shall hang on to that if the Conservatives do govern me on Friday.

Ok. Can someone tell me what Gordon Brown did with all the billions he supposedly took from pensions, as per the conservative posters? What is the story behind that?

Many thanks for all your good advice and  for all of you in trouble or have relatives who are suffering. I filled the form out twice and was turned down twice, I also gave up after that, but will now try again with help.

and so you think that under a Tory government we had no debt? We had much higher inflation, 3 recessions not a world wide recession and of course Mrs Sell Off Thatcher had loads on extra money in her purse to squander. We had council house sell off's that were never replaced and councils not allowed to spend that money, then we had the wonderful Council tax, I don't look at labour through rose tinted glasses I see them for warts and all.  But I've not got a bad memory when it comes to the hardship that was heaped on the working class, pensioners and it's doesn't matter to me what anyone quotes, it's imprinted on my brain the day Margaret Thatcher stood grinning to announce interest rates would rise to 17.05 %. Please don't quote me on that, I could be a percent or or so out.

Quangos?  Regional Assemblies?

sorry baz....I missed this. I don't think they are all like that. Some of them are true 'meritocrats' and believe that hard work pays off. I believe that also, I had to work hard at school and at work to be 'comfortable'. My gripe is with those that refuse to understand that there exists a great many who have no choice (those in areas decimated by Tory policies in the 1980s, went to a rubbish school etc...), and that social policy has to focus on helping the needy (even the ones with TVs bigger than Cameron!!!!).

Quite true! But add to that, more play specialists in Paediatric hospitals (to make the journey to health easier for children), play centres and creches in Public Sector buildings, regeneration of whole areas of extreme neglect, a few parks, some nice Central(ish) London homes affordable for key workers. Can't produce the sources at the moment, but I'm describing what I am living, or what I can see right now.

Lol baz I know many conservatives supporters and they are not toffs same with labour supporters who like to think they are,I think what people on here are saying is tory goverment look after their own (the well off )and not the ordinary working person, so people tend to vote either which way,it is like BB we all get passionate about the party we support I just agree to disagree like in BB threads

If Labour is so bad it begs the question why the conservatives are not running away with the polls like Labour did when they took over from the Thatcher years, if the polls are right and think it may be a hung parliment even if the Tories win it will not be a great victory for them or any of the parties who win.

Cameron thinks he's got it sewn up but before he legs it round to No. 10 to measure up for the curtains he should bear in mind the fate of Neil Kinnock in '92(?) who celebrated a little too early and lived to regret it.  The British people don't care for a smug git.

David Cameron is in fact playing it very low key.  No sign of triumphalism as there was with Neil Kinnock.  You may see David Cameron as a smug git I see him as an honest man and to be honest I don't envy any party trying to clear up the mess.

BTW The Grauniad didn't give Labour their full support in 2005,1983, 1974 (X2), 1955, 1951,1950, or 1945. In 1955 they were fully behind the Tory party. The only paper to support Labour throughout is the Daily Mirror.

Suzy, Mr B and I also had to work very hard to be comfortable, and also had our fair share of problems under Thatcher/Major. In fact Mr B was made redundant 3 times in the 1990s. And I am very happy that so many on here have parents or grandparents that are enjoying a happy old age, but I also take note that most of those mentioned are in their 70s or 80s. I have the misfortune to be among those now in their 60s, those who have been the most effected by New Labour.. aka GB....private  pension policies, so all our hard work has effectively amounted to nothing.   I also find it interesting that so many people keep harking back to the Thatcher/ Conservatives policies in the 1980's... but no one points out the mess of the winter of discontent in the 1970s. 

In 1997 people who had never voted Labour in their lives decided to give Blair a chance, because he seemed the better of two evils.... I am now going to do the opposite and vote Conservative.  I am not naive, and indeed am cynical enough to believe that most politicians are in it for their own ends, but apart from anything else, I simply cannot stand any more of the hypocritical, holier than thou attitude that has spewed forth from the Labour front benches in the last 13 years.  A change is as good as a rest as far as I am concerned

Fickle lot

By the way Baz I watched the Jeremy Paxman interview, JP might as well have talked to an empty chair for all the impression his words made.  It was quite astonishing really how little impact you can make on the GB monologue.

It's the leader writer's opinion. The contributors and readers don't seem to have changed their minds. Though to be fair one or two letters suggested that they may have some new readers. I had the newsagent wrap my Guardian in a copy of "FIESTA" as I couldn't stand the shame.

  Talk to the smile, cos the ears aren't listening

I wasn't aware that you were a Guardian reader, GJ, I'm surprised you haven't mentioned it before

I wasn't aware that you were an expert at world class sarcasm, like m'self.