I think public sector jobs and pensions will suffer under the Tories + they will stop the winter fuel allowance etc - really worrying I think

I'm not holding my breath

and vat and a million other things that they have promised, The NI hike is not going to be paid for by us and the fat cats...just us! But pensioners could end up being back to square one and that's worrying  

ahhhh.... I feel your pain!   I seem to spend my life "a couple of £'s over the limit" for this or for that...  working tax credit, legal aid...when I was single and working I reached a point where I couldn't afford to be promoted.... I needed to jump from where I was... up three grades to maintain my income...  

I do understand how some peeps get narked about means assessed pensions.. there was a woman & her hubby at a tea dance on breakfast tv... and she was not happy at all.. they had WORKED for their pension... and others were just given it....  she scared me a bit... cos she said she was happy with what she got... just unhappy with others getting it.   Left me wondering if what she was after was the satisfaction of seeing the others struggle more....

ermm... (don't hit me Baz)...   she was supporting the Conservatives 

I understand where you're coming from Ditty, but sometimes circumstance means you have to be means assessed. My dad got finished when Mrs bloody wonderful Thatcher decided to dissect the Steel Works. He was due to start a new job when he was steam rollered by a Volvo, most of his compensation went on paying back the DSS. My mother cared for him for 23  years until he died, now she can at least live in comfort...I doubt if that will last long with a Tory government, unless there is a public outcry like the council tax if they dare touch it!

I have no problem with means assessment...    for me personally.. I tend to look at what I have... and if it is enough to meet my needs..   what struck me about the woman on the telly was that she was actually quite happy with her lot... she was unhappy about what someone else was getting... 

I found it bizarre... cos if the changes she desired happened.. her own personal circumstances would not change... weird eh?

I am also very much in support of "benefits"...  I have been on benefits..  I claimed when I ended up a single mum with a baby... I claimed tax credits when I was a working mum of two...  they helped me out of the poverty trap.   when I work I feel that I am repaying what I took into the pot....  in addition... I bring up my children to be assets to society...  


the problem as I see it is...  the cases where these systems are abused...  people who exploit the system, have no social conscience... and think the world is all about take, take, take.... 

but for me personally... Much as it annoys me as much as the next person at times, I would rather they got their money.... than an awful lot more good people... people on benefits who had just fallen on hard times, people who would love to not claim them.. .people who, without them, would be well & truly destitute be denied them.


Going back to pensions.... I know the demographic is scary... I know that there are concerns about how to support an increasing pensionable population...  but from the other side.. you work hard... paid or unpaid, all your life...  the thought that I will spend my last years alive worrying about money like I do now.... 

god its a bit bleak...

time to stick my head back in the sand i think...

What I'm personally sick of is the media's obsessive attention to negativity in the campaign, nothing new I know as they all thrive on it whatever the subject. I listened to the whole of Brown's speech in Sunderland and it was positive and uplifting, not only for the locals which Labour have seemingly done much in that area but his reminder what the other parties won't do for areas such as theirs and what will be withdrawn if the Tories get in. Towards the end there was a heckler. Brown told him he would take Q & A's at the end, which he did, but the heckler kept going. What have all the news channels concentrated on? not what Brown said but the heckler which was about 3/4 mins. Same negative coverage for Clegg who also had a few hecklers on his walkabout today.



Yes all leaders should be questioned by the public but when it comes to reporting the overall picture of all leaders in their campaigns I'm utterly sick of so much attention on the negativity instead of the real issues. Thank goodness I don't buy newspapers, it's bad enough watching news stations whether Sky, BBC or ITV

I'm not into politics and have voted for snp .labour and conservative at various stages in my life.
If I was a gambler(which I'm not) then I wouldn't lay a sou on labour winning the election.
Good luck to all anyway!

They have definitely promised to keep the winter fuel allowance and tax credits etc.  I am certainly not accusing you of scaremongering but there has been a great deal of scaremongering coming from the Labour Party and unfortunately its all part of what they have been doing - lying, spinning, smearing etc.  One of the reasons that people are sick of them I think.

They said they would not stop tax credits winter fuel allowance etc when pushed for an answer, perhaps not this year but I dont trust them the poor stay poorer under the tories and the rich get richer,  I am in a position it wont really change my lifestyle regards to who gets in I am one of the lucky ones if you like,but it will affect the more vulnerable ..pensioners low paid workers it always does under the tories have they changed in my honest opinion ..no

I should add when I say I am one of the lucky ones by that I mean my morgage is paid off and my husband left me well provided for I dont have to depend on the state pension alone but many do and I worry for them under a tory government,why do I vote labour for me it is about staying true to myself  I believe they have a fairer system regarding the most vulnerable than the tories ever have.

I have just watched David Cameron on The Andrew Marr Show and as usual Andrew pressurised him and my conclusion is that DC is an honest man who has the welfare of this whole country as his concern.  This is something I think the Labour Party never managed, from the moment they walked into office 13 years ago they ruled for the Labour Party and its voters alone.  I am not at all surprised that Labour continue to spread lies and try to scare the electorate, after all that is what they are known for.

I dont agree with what you are saying squiggle  best to agree to disagree..time will tell.

It annoys me that some will never work and readily claim benefits Ditty, but that happens whichever party is in charge of the country. In our area, it's now low paid minimum wage country due to Tory policies. There are no decent jobs out there to make any sort of a wage to build pensions, and I would hate the pensioners to lose out.The Tories have never given the low paid and pensioners the help that Labour have and that's my worry, and Camerons made it clear the NI rise will not be partly paid for by businesses, it will be down to us and the money will have to come from somewhere.

I'm not a huge Tory supporter however I do support Cameron's policy in forcing JOBLESS LAYABOUTS to get off their lazy arses and do some work!!  Damn right they should have their benefits cut off!!

The tories have a bad track record when it comes to helping pensioners and the low paid the Thatcher years created selfishness greed the yuppies boom and bust the rich got richer and the poor got poorer do I believe Cameron is any different .. no way.

Not every one on benefits are layabouts spider, and that happens in all governments. If your area depended on the Steel Industry and the Coal Industry then that community suffers in every area, with off shoots of those industries closing down. Due to Tory policies that's what we are left with, a ripped apart work force who through no fault of their own find it very difficult to get work. As for building a pension, you cant very well build one on a minimum wage. .

absolutely!!  see...  I don't think there are many people that would disagree with this... but its the sorting out of the jobless layabouts from the others.  

I have known scrounging jobless layabouts....  whole families of them...  I know they are capable of work, cos I have watched in awe as they display a sophisticated understanding of the system... how they are able to find every loophole... know every trick in the book to avoid losing their benefits and being put on jobseekers.  They have a warped mentality where they think the world owes them something....  

Its a shame that there wasn't someone who could just make a judgement call... break all the red tape and tick box assessments and say "no more...  no more twisting your circumstances to tick boxes... you are fit for work... so work".

Incapacity benefit is the one I have seen abused the most.   Its also the one I have seen people in genuine need struggle to get or even refused!  

Under the current government mum's have to now seek work when their child is 13 or something... This would be fine in a perfect world, where jobs that fit in with school hours are a plenty, with bosses that understand when you have to have time off cos the kids are ill or its a non pupil day etc.

The argument is that at 13 they are old enough to be at home unsupervised...  basically latch key kids.   And in the next breath people are ask "do you know where your child is right now" & wonder what on earth has happened to cause the binge drinking hooded youths of today.

In summary... my concerns about generalised statements of "cutting benefits to those who refuse to work" is that often this doesn't force those people into work at all...  in fact if they do actually get their benefits cut, then they will more than likely resort to selling drugs, tax free tobacco, handling stolen goods etc to make ends meet.  
 
What it can do though... is cause real hardship in some genuine cases.   The problem is that each case is unique.. individual...  and its hard to assess cos of this. 

Also... I do wonder what would happen if a family did have all benefits cut... and yet did not could not find work... what would happen?  kids taken into care...  adults live on the street...  or do we envisage a return to workhouses?

That's the spirit ditty  I feel absolutely lucky and blessed to be in my current position where I have created a life where my professional life can be put at hold to take care of my family needs. I also know that I am lucky to have the husband and family that I do. I can chose to do the school run, I can do lunch with my friends and I can fanny about all day on this forum if I want safe in the knowledge that everything is fine. If I had been a single mum of 4, and estranged from my family my whole life would be radically different. I wouldn't be able to work, I wouldn't have the indulgence of a first class education (that my parents struggled for me to get) and I'd be in a cycle of poverty and benefits. Of course people take the mick, but it's not the system's fault, it's the fault of the greedy amongst us. And IMO it's easy to pillory the work shy scroungers at the lower end, but it's the greed at the top that's more heinous. Those bonus grabbing, accountant retaining tax exiles at the top. They are the biggest scroungers in the world! And sorry folks, that's who Cameron want to look after...in the hope that wealth will 'trickle down' and benefit all. Thatcher tried it and it failed.

You said it all Suzy

Best thing I've read on any political thread on here.... EVER!

     I agree with you too Ducky. best post in a political thread.

     Suzy you said it how it is

I am finding it very interesting that it seems to be the thought of asking people to take jobs if they can work that seems to be causing so much concern.

No one has said that Squiggle.....just expressed concern about how you sort the workshy from the truly needy, and if it isn't possible to do so, whether it is worth sacrificing the latter for the former.

Ducky surely everyone must agree that we cannot continue much longer supporting people who are able to work but refuse to because they get more on benefits?  Agreed we need to re-build our manufacturing industries, re-train people and make sure that we make jobs available for those in the workforce who need to get back out there, but we cannot go on this way any longer.  13 years Labour have been in power and what have they done to make jobs available to people so that they can have dignity and earn their own money?

My philosophy in life is to trust  people until I have reason not to (and then god help them), and while I agree that all political parties are a bit suss , I find it very interesting to see how people continue to support a government that seems to me to have consistently proved to be less than trustworthy or truthful. I have no idea if the Conservatives or Liberals will be better for the country, all I know is that time and time again over the last 13 years, on a variety of issues, New Labour has proved itself seriously lacking.

I think we all agree that people who could work should work.....only the workshy scroungers would disagree with you there. I just object to you saying "it seems to be the thought of asking people to take jobs if they can work that seems to be causing so much concern" because I haven't seen or heard anyone saying that.

Labour have done an awful lot to make working the better option for all......... I know as a single parent myself, how difficult it was to find work that enabled you cover your rent, child care and a minimum standard of living under the Conservatives. That changed under Labour. The working/child tax credits were a godsend. Labour sure gave me my dignity back.

I started working as a teaching assistant....I was lucky to find a job that fitted perfectly around my son. (Well, I say lucky, they nearly snapped my hand off when they found out I had a maths degree). Without the tax credits I would not have been any better off!

Eventually the school convinced me to train as a teacher. Now, when you start to teach, your salary is quite low (certainly compared to many other graduate jobs), but it increases quite rapidly over the first few years.... it's one way they try and encourage people to stay in the profession, because a high percentage jump ship in the first two years.  My salary went up, my credits went down. It meant in those first few years I was earning a decent amount. I strongly suspect it would have been very different under the conservatives.

It's one of many reasons that despite living in a conservative safe seat (it almost make me feel ill acknowledging that )....I'll still be literally skipping into the polling booth on Thursday to put my little cross next to the Labour candidates name.

Mind you....despite the fact it won't do Labour any good, I'm quite liking the views on proportional representation......apparently my vote only makes me 0.1% of a person.

I remember the conservatives being the same Baz.... so that, plus the fact that ideologically they stand for everything I despise means I can never forsee a time where I would even consider voting for them. The Lib Dems I could handle.

Oooh look what I jsut found!

FAB IDEA OR WHAT????

Yep... for me too!    I couldn't work and maintain a basic existance before the working tax credit started.  I wanted to... desperately (its grim being stuck at home with no money, day in day out, no hope)...    when tax credit started I was out there and working like a shot.

Absolutely! NO ONE with a honest to god choice would choose that life, no matter what the tabloids try and scare people into thinking.

The tiny tiny tiny minority that choose to claim benefits rather than work have other motives that no change of system is going to cure.

No system is perfect (and lets be honest, whichever party governs, the welfare state is here to stay in one form or another)......I would rather accept the imperfections than revert to a system that will see millions more have no choice but to live in poverty.

aww  thanks guys...was just having a little rant. I do think that those that can work should be out working or looking for work. I'm just fed up with the constant onus on those at the end of the economic food chain. When people like Cameron mention them, it's as if everything wrong in society is down to them without discussing the context behind poverty and the need for benefits.
I once watched a Mark Steel lecture where he was exposing a tax loophole (scam) whereby people could buy works of art and not pay any VAT on them if they could prove that they would make the art works available for public viewing. He made some checks and found out that Nicholas Soames MP (Tory, grandson of Churchill, and someone who generally sneers at the working classes) had bought a very expensive piece of furniture and avoided VAT using that loophole. Turns out the furniture was in his London home so Steel and an entourage went there demanding to see it. Afterall, he'd saved a small fortune by making it open to the public. They were refused entry. So next time he's barking about some lazy proletarian scroungers, I hope he remembers how he and many like him have scammed the nation's purse and creamed off the lion's share.

"I would rather accept the imperfections than revert to a system that will see millions more have no choice but to live in poverty."  ref; ducky

Ducky and suzybean  
I vaguely remember that Mark Steel prog, too. It really boils my wee the way Cameron and his clique of toffs keep targeting the poorest in society, as if they're to blame for all of its ills. Conveniently ignoring that, compared to their rich pals' tax avoidance and creative accounting, the amount the poorest get away with is a drop in the ocean.

And that interests me too... the fact that only the Conservatives (and to some extent their supporters) are seen as Toffs..... as if all the other politicians (especially Labour) are *working class*...... Plus, can I just point out, that I too lived through the Thatcher years (and a few more besides).

Baz, I know there are toffs of all political stripes. Clegg hardly went to the local comp, either. But Cameron and his Bullingdon Club cronies really take it to another level. There are about half a dozen Old Etonians in the shadow cabinet. All of them with the apparent belief that it's the natural order of things that they should 'rule' the rest of us.

I know FA about Politics but I hope Gordon Brown does not win the election.

But isn't that EXACTLY what GB thinks Deman.....???

Perhaps even more to the point would any of them be in politics if they didn't think that.....