quote:

Originally posted by electric6:
I admit I'm not very well read in this area...I know little to nowt about this side of politics/the economy but I'm baffled by that

I think she's saying that the middle classes have pensions (usually invested in shares in companies and banks and the like), and own shares directly, and are part of mutual societies, and store their savings in banks, and hold wealth in property and goods. That is, they own the means of production themselves at some level.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by electric6:
I admit I'm not very well read in this area...I know little to nowt about this side of politics/the economy but I'm baffled by that

I think she's saying that the middle classes have pensions (usually invested in shares in companies and banks and the like), and own shares directly, and are part of mutual societies, and store their savings in banks, and hold wealth in property and goods. That is, they own the means of production themselves at some level.

So if the middles classes are rubbish and the poor are all feckless then...that can mean only one thing

quote:

Originally posted by electric6:
So if the middles classes are rubbish and the poor are all feckless then...that can mean only one thing

But we don't operate as classes with class interests. Not the various middle classes. Not the affluent working classes. We're all in it for ourselves and we have differing interests and views.

quote:

Originally posted by jennywren:

quote:

Originally posted by profile:
Brain/Money Drain = fiction

Nonsense tomfoolery. They will not split.

It is not fiction. Every time Labour hikes up the tax burden to impossible amounts, a brain-drain occurs. Some of the best people leave the UK and go to places where most of their hard-earned cash don't disappear into the State Trough.

If Labour didn't do that, all that hard-earned cash would go into the State Trough anyway, in the form of indirect taxation through purchases and other non-income taxes.

The more of this wealth which is kept in the country, the more jobs are kept.

The poor just see greed. They don't see hard work or 7 years' university education without much income and a huge mountain of debt before work has even begun.

The poor think all high-earners are just those obscene bank-bonus suckers. It's not like that at all. Look outside the box.

and your definition of poor is???????

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:
In other words those of us who actually pay taxes are subsidising the defects of capitalism.
Those who caused the crisis have awarded themselves pay hikes.

Capitalism to you seems to mean unfettered capitalism and no possibility of anything else. Can you envisage a system where people sell their labour for wages which isn't like that?

I used to use the term laissez faire capitalism, but one of my betters on here told me it didn't exist.
I have nothing against the leftish one nation capitalism as carried out by Supermac, Home, Wilson etc. But I don't really rate the current scenario of ill qualified businessmen with no plan B.

quote:

Originally posted by jennywren:

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:

quote:

Originally posted by electric6:

quote:

The poor just see greed. They don't see hard work or 7 years' university education without much income and a huge mountain of debt before work has even begun.

The poor think all high-earners are just those obscene bank-bonus suckers. It's not like that at all. Look outside the box.

Well that's us told

I have been looking outside the box for the last couple of hours I and have discovered that tax avoidance is a multi billion pound industry. If they are spending that amount of money on avoiding tax then the amount of protected money must be more than we can imagine, and like Han Solo we can imagine quite a lot.
All I ask is that people should pay their tax, or give the rest of us the information so that we may lawfully avoid tax also.

It is not only the super-rich who avoid tax. The poor do it, too. They fiddle their accounts, take cash-in-hand, live on the dole while having a job on the side, claim for stuff they shouldn't. In fact, there is a whole industry devoted to avoiding work altogether and thus to avoid paying tax altogether, while the rest of the Great British Nation supports its members.

It is the super-rich who provide the jobs your dole-scroungers try so hard to avoid.

I am absolutely pissed off with the Saintly Poor. Not the honest ones who did their best under their own particular circumstances, but those who avoid work altogether, or those who wouldn't get off their backsides at school and get a decent education because they felt the whole effing world owed them a living.

oh i see so your definition of poor is self employed people, people who work and take cash in hand and people who are on the dole probably because they have been made redundant in the last 12 months, seriously you need to open your eyes

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by electric6:
I admit I'm not very well read in this area...I know little to nowt about this side of politics/the economy but I'm baffled by that

I think she's saying that the middle classes have pensions (usually invested in shares in companies and banks and the like), and own shares directly, and are part of mutual societies, and store their savings in banks, and hold wealth in property and goods. That is, they own the means of production themselves at some level.

No I'm not. I'm saying the working classes are increasingly getting better and better jobs, even in politics and higher management.

Down with the proles then?

Oooooooh.

quote:

Originally posted by Lockes no 1 fan:

quote:

Originally posted by jennywren:

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:

quote:

Originally posted by electric6:

quote:

The poor just see greed. They don't see hard work or 7 years' university education without much income and a huge mountain of debt before work has even begun.

The poor think all high-earners are just those obscene bank-bonus suckers. It's not like that at all. Look outside the box.

Well that's us told

I have been looking outside the box for the last couple of hours I and have discovered that tax avoidance is a multi billion pound industry. If they are spending that amount of money on avoiding tax then the amount of protected money must be more than we can imagine, and like Han Solo we can imagine quite a lot.
All I ask is that people should pay their tax, or give the rest of us the information so that we may lawfully avoid tax also.

It is not only the super-rich who avoid tax. The poor do it, too. They fiddle their accounts, take cash-in-hand, live on the dole while having a job on the side, claim for stuff they shouldn't. In fact, there is a whole industry devoted to avoiding work altogether and thus to avoid paying tax altogether, while the rest of the Great British Nation supports its members.

It is the super-rich who provide the jobs your dole-scroungers try so hard to avoid.

I am absolutely pissed off with the Saintly Poor. Not the honest ones who did their best under their own particular circumstances, but those who avoid work altogether, or those who wouldn't get off their backsides at school and get a decent education because they felt the whole effing world owed them a living.

oh i see so your definition of poor is self employed people, people who work and take cash in hand and people who are on the dole probably because they have been made redundant in the last 12 months, seriously you need to open your eyes

No. My definition of poor people is people who don't earn much money. Even they are capable of duping the taxman.

quote:

Originally posted by electric6:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by electric6:
I admit I'm not very well read in this area...I know little to nowt about this side of politics/the economy but I'm baffled by that

I think she's saying that the middle classes have pensions (usually invested in shares in companies and banks and the like), and own shares directly, and are part of mutual societies, and store their savings in banks, and hold wealth in property and goods. That is, they own the means of production themselves at some level.

So if the middles classes are rubbish and the poor are all feckless then...that can mean only one thing

For generations, the middle classes of GB have been the backbone of the country: teaching its children; tending its sick; inventing things; building up industries and business. They have built parks and libraries, hospitals and schools. They gave something back. They didn't just take.

Now, they can't give anything back because everything has been taken from them. And still the government wants more.

So, no, the middle classes are not rubbish but they are being treated like they are.

As to the working classes becoming teachers, and the like. Fine, if they are clever enough, but I've come across some very stupid people who have somehow managed to go into teaching in the past decade or so.

While I'm not condoning cheating the benefit system or anything similar...I still think that morally it is much, much worse to have a huge amount of money and tax dodge, fiddle and scam...than it is to do a couple of hours work for an extra 20 quid when you're brassic and on the dole.

You seem to equate class with intelligence. I don't.

quote:

Originally posted by Lockes no 1 fan:

quote:

Originally posted by jennywren:

quote:

Originally posted by profile:
Brain/Money Drain = fiction

Nonsense tomfoolery. They will not split.

It is not fiction. Every time Labour hikes up the tax burden to impossible amounts, a brain-drain occurs. Some of the best people leave the UK and go to places where most of their hard-earned cash don't disappear into the State Trough.

If Labour didn't do that, all that hard-earned cash would go into the State Trough anyway, in the form of indirect taxation through purchases and other non-income taxes.

The more of this wealth which is kept in the country, the more jobs are kept.

The poor just see greed. They don't see hard work or 7 years' university education without much income and a huge mountain of debt before work has even begun.

The poor think all high-earners are just those obscene bank-bonus suckers. It's not like that at all. Look outside the box.

and your definition of poor is???????

And your definition of poor is?????

And your definition of rich is?????

quote:

Originally posted by electric6:
While I'm not condoning cheating the benefit system or anything similar...I still think that morally it is much, much worse to have a huge amount of money and tax dodge, fiddle and scam...than it is to do a couple of hours work for an extra 20 quid when you're brassic and on the dole.

No. It's exactly the same thing.

quote:

Originally posted by jennywren:
No. It's exactly the same thing.

Morals aren't facts though.

I don't think it's the same, the £20 scenario may be motivated by greed, the already filthy rich one definitely is.

quote:

Originally posted by electric6:
While I'm not condoning cheating the benefit system or anything similar...I still think that morally it is much, much worse to have a huge amount of money and tax dodge, fiddle and scam...than it is to do a couple of hours work for an extra 20 quid when you're brassic and on the dole.

Forget morally, I'd say someone who is earning a few hundred thousand pounds a year and tax dodging would be taking far more from the country than someone living on the scraps you get when you don't have a job. Besides, even if they did have a job, they'd probably be low income jobs and would be paying small amounts of tax anyway. So even then, the tax dodging rich person would still be costing the country a lot more.

quote:

Originally posted by electric6:
You seem to equate class with intelligence. I don't.

No, I don't. Intelligence is inherent as is academic ability.

However, in families where academic ability was always considered important, attitudes to education were passed down through the generations which helped the child do well at school. In families where academic ability and education are not encouraged, it is more difficult for the child to keep up, no matter how intelligent he is. Some kids, sadly, fight a losing battle and it is quite right the education system reflects that and tries to work against it. This is what the grammar school system set out to do and it is a tragedy it has been all but lost.

It is not right that the education system skews course content and exam results so more kids pass than would have passed had the education been at the previously higher level of the grammar schools. It is cheating and it is giving some people false hopes above their academic ability and intelligence.

quote:

Originally posted by electric6:

quote:

Originally posted by jennywren:
No. It's exactly the same thing.

Morals aren't facts though.

I don't think it's the same, the £20 scenario may be motivated by greed, the already filthy rich one definitely is.

You assume all filthy rich people just lie back and wait for money to pour into their bank accounts. Some do. Some don't.

Some filthy rich work very hard for what they get and many non-filthy-rich people resent them for it.

quote:

Originally posted by disley21:

quote:

Originally posted by electric6:
While I'm not condoning cheating the benefit system or anything similar...I still think that morally it is much, much worse to have a huge amount of money and tax dodge, fiddle and scam...than it is to do a couple of hours work for an extra 20 quid when you're brassic and on the dole.

Forget morally, I'd say someone who is earning a few hundred thousand pounds a year and tax dodging would be taking far more from the country than someone living on the scraps you get when you don't have a job. Besides, even if they did have a job, they'd probably be low income jobs and would be paying small amounts of tax anyway. So even then, the tax dodging rich person would still be costing the country a lot more.

I think so too.

That's all an aside from your earlier post though, where you mentioned the middles classes teaching, nursing etc then went on to mention

quote:

As to the working classes becoming teachers, and the like. Fine, if they are clever enough, but I've come across some very stupid people who have somehow managed to go into teaching in the past decade or so.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it but the feeling I get from your posts in this thread is a bit of preventing "the poor" from getting ideas above their station...with a hefty dose of middle class is inherently better in some way.

quote:

Originally posted by disley21:

quote:

Originally posted by electric6:
While I'm not condoning cheating the benefit system or anything similar...I still think that morally it is much, much worse to have a huge amount of money and tax dodge, fiddle and scam...than it is to do a couple of hours work for an extra 20 quid when you're brassic and on the dole.

Forget morally, I'd say someone who is earning a few hundred thousand pounds a year and tax dodging would be taking far more from the country than someone living on the scraps you get when you don't have a job. Besides, even if they did have a job, they'd probably be low income jobs and would be paying small amounts of tax anyway. So even then, the tax dodging rich person would still be costing the country a lot more.

Actually, we've gone off track here because we weren't talking about the obscene tax-dodging rich, but the levels at which the rich should be taxed.

quote:

Originally posted by electric6:
That's all an aside from your earlier post though, where you mentioned the middles classes teaching, nursing etc then went on to mention

quote:

As to the working classes becoming teachers, and the like. Fine, if they are clever enough, but I've come across some very stupid people who have somehow managed to go into teaching in the past decade or so.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it but the feeling I get from your posts in this thread is a bit of preventing "the poor" from getting ideas above their station...with a hefty dose of middle class is inherently better in some way.

Not really, though it might read like that. What I'm saying, is that the education system is skewed to give unfair advantages to people who actually lack the academic ability necessary to undertake certain jobs, regardless of their social background.

quote:

Originally posted by jennywren:

You assume all filthy rich people just lie back and wait for money to pour into their bank accounts. Some do. Some don't.

Some filthy rich work very hard for what they get and many non-filthy-rich people resent them for it.

I don't assume that at all. In fact I don't believe I even hinted at it.

I DO resent the fact that it is assumed that if people work hard they will become rich and if they are poor it's simply because they aren't working hard enough. That seems to me to be some fantasy like The American Dream.

I fail to see how someone born into a wealthy family and works 40 hours a week in an office is working any harder than someone who may, for example work a 40 hour week doing manual labour...or indeed doing a drudge type job in an office.

quote:

Originally posted by electric6:
I DO resent the fact that it is assumed that if people work hard they will become rich and if they are poor it's simply because they aren't working hard enough. That seems to me to be some fantasy like The American Dream.

I fail to see how someone born into a wealthy family and works 40 hours a week in an office is working any harder than someone who may, for example work a 40 hour week doing manual labour...or indeed doing a drudge type job in an office.

I know I work a damn sight less hard in my office job than my uncles do in their manual labour jobs, but earn more (I think, we dont hactually discuss what we earn and whatnot)

quote:

Originally posted by SazBomb:
I know I work a damn sight less hard in my office job than my uncles do in their manual labour jobs, but earn more (I think, we dont hactually discuss what we earn and whatnot)

Tis the height of vulgarity Saz!

There is the argument that you did without and worked hard (mentally, emotionally probably too) at university so you are being rewarded for that now.

It's not always like that though, family money and connections can get people a long, long way in life. There is also the point that even bright kids from poor families can miss out on chances. One of the biggest reasons I would say is because often it's just simply not expected of them. It just doesn't occur to anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by jennywren:
For generations, the middle classes of GB have been the backbone of the country: teaching its children; tending its sick; inventing things; building up industries and business. They have built parks and libraries, hospitals and schools. They gave something back. They didn't just take.

Now, they can't give anything back because everything has been taken from them. And still the government wants more.

'Tis spurious bolleaux.
We pay 20% tax. Anything we earn over approx £35,000 we pay 40% tax. Are you suggesting that people can't survive another tax band say at £100,000?
The middle classes are not facing poverty but probably need a few lessons on how to manage vast sums of money.

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:

quote:

Originally posted by jennywren:
For generations, the middle classes of GB have been the backbone of the country: teaching its children; tending its sick; inventing things; building up industries and business. They have built parks and libraries, hospitals and schools. They gave something back. They didn't just take.

Now, they can't give anything back because everything has been taken from them. And still the government wants more.

'Tis spurious bolleaux.
We pay 20% tax. Anything we earn over approx £35,000 we pay 40% tax. Are you suggesting that people can't survive another tax band say at £100,000?
The middle classes are not facing poverty but probably need a few lessons on how to manage vast sums of money.

I see 3 Coronation Street "stars" asking for 5 figure pay increases in todays paper - FIRE THEM bring in fresh talent - ( the 3 in question have ALL taken drugs ).Dont mess about - just get rid and bring in young blood and SAVE 100,000 quid a year each.

all these tax avoidance schemes really piss me off, i've always paid my uk tax and i really dont see why all the so called loopholes arent closed as that would bring in plenty of extra taxes without the need to increase the tax on those who already pay it, that said some cuts could also easily take place, does anyone earning over £75k really need child benifits or tax credits and at the other end should those who pay taxes be paying them to support baby making machines.

I find the whole tax system crazy.
It needs a complete overhaul.
Anyone earning under £15000 PA should not pay Income tax. After that it should be one rate, e.g 25%.
No loopholes, no credits, no anything.
The money saved on not needing the legions of tax inspectors etc would save the country a fortune.

quote:

Originally posted by luxor:
I find the whole tax system crazy.
It needs a complete overhaul.
Anyone earning under £15000 PA should not pay Income tax. After that it should be one rate, e.g 25%.
No loopholes, no credits, no anything.
The money saved on not needing the legions of tax inspectors etc would save the country a fortune.

Alas! We will always need tax inspectors.