I agree- I've never understood the criticism of Kate's way of coping - I think people expect everybody to behave in the same way they themselves do - I really don't understand people sometimes...which is why I'm not staying in this thread

I agree. Strikes me as very amusing that those who are most critical and judgemental have never been a parent.

And on that note I'll take my leave re this thread.

I get far to vocal  about it.

That's not harsh Baz, that poor little girl Like Cinds said her being dead isnt the worst out come

None of it bears thinking about does it Jen  

That's a bit too broad stroked a judgement itself Sooz. I've never been a parent but have been a big sister and aunt. Whats more, I'd never dream of criticising the McCanns in their ordeal until there was a reason to do so. 

So if the mother and father (or any of the adults in their group) stayed in that room with the kids the girl still would have been kidnapped?

If that's the case then Im in the wrong, if not then they have to take their share of the blame.

Judgemental... Yes, factual... Yes, am I a parent... No, do you have to be a parent to understand obvious common sense... No.

it may not be an exact science but with anything there are a certain set of common sense rules and surely one would be you don't leave the most precious things in the world to you, I'd presume that is what you'd think of your kids, all alone in a strange country  while you go off gallivanting with your mates.  I guarantee you they locked their money and passports up safely..

but pardon me for commenting in a thread where it appears you can only comment if you are a parent.. blimey it's a wonder anyone left their kids with me to look after over the years.. not to mention teaching a full classroom of them..  what we me not being part of the club an all

I don't think anyone has suggested they ought to apologise for someone taking their child. I think a lot of people feel the McCanns have never really accepted that their selfish and negligent actions allowed someone to take their child.

I don't believe that two well educated, intelligent people like them, thought it was safe to leave three young children alone in an apartment. They were aware that Madeleine and Sean had woken and been crying the previous evening, and yet they still chose to leave the children again. IMO, they put what they wanted to do, before the safety of their children. You don't need to be a parent to know that leaving three young children alone in an apartment is a risk - common sense ought to tell you that.

I'm a mum of three and now a grandmother. I didn't always get things right and my children had minor accidents, in spite of my efforts to protect them, but I would never have left them alone so that I could go out socialising. Their safety was always my first priority.

I saw, in the clips of the Crimewatch programme prior to its airing, Kate McCann said, 'We did nothing wrong', however I noticed, during last night's programme, what she said appeared to have changed to, 'we didn't commit a crime'. Their continued failure to accept that they acted selfishly and irresponsibly, beggars belief.

Exactly Yogi, it's their inability to take some of the blame for leaving the kids open to all sorts of danger.. that's not me saying they had anything to do with it or deserved it it's just me saying they didn't help matters by being so incredibly irresponsible in the first place..

but hey what do I know .. and how dare I comment... not being a mum and all.. but I do feel for the mother of Baby Ben who went missing in Greece all those yrs ago. .and the parents of all missing kids who don't get the sort of help the McCanns are getting to find out what happened.. 

Exactly Olly, nobody is saying they deserved it - the loss of a child is something you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy. It's the inability to accept that their actions put their children at risk and allowed someone to take Madeleine.

I don't think you need to be a parent to comment on this situation, your opinion is ever bit as valid as those of us with kids. 

I completely agree with you about Ben Needham's mum and other parents whose children have gone missing. I'm not sure quite why the McCanns seem to be treated as a special case.

OK – The only reason I had a pop at those who are highly critical and not parents is because I believe that no one can possibly even begin to understand what it is to be a parent until they are. I had been a very pro active , hands on auntie but becoming a parent completely knocked me for six. Nothing can prepare you. I smile {usually) at the people who say ….’I’d never let my kids do this –and – you should be doing it like that’ etc. When these same people become parents themselves it's a whole different ball game.

I’m gonna go all out here and say that I have done in the past what the McCann’s did that night whilst on holiday. Shock/horror it used to be positively encouraged with baby listening patrols - indeed there was a baby listening patrol at that very resort which for some reason wasn’t on offer. I only did it on one holiday and didn’t feel comfortable so never did it again. My only defence is that for some reason you feel more relaxed and lulled into a false sense of security.

For many, many years this was common place in holiday camps throughout the UK and some resorts abroad.Every single holiday I went on as a child my parents used a baby listening service/patrol as did absolutely hundreds of others at holiday camps .  I look back now and think OMG! But …..There for the grace of God go I.

I cannot comprehend how anyone cannot have sympathy for parents who have lost a very dearly loved and cherished child. If that makes me a bad parent so be it. I look and think there for the grace of God go I.

We all have roles in life as children, sisters, brothers, parents and as someone has said it isn’t an exact science. There isn’t one cap that fits all.

FWIW – I think they made a dreadful error of judgement but I can see how it happened. They are living with the dreadful consequences and I have nothing but sympathy.

I’m not getting at anyone, everyone is entitled to an opinion on it and these are mine.

No offence meant to anyone.

You have summed my feeling on the matter up perfectly Yogi . I certainly wasn't a perfect parent , and made lots of mistakes ( as no doubt my kids will attest to ) . Of course you can't be with them 24/7 ...they have to take a few knocks and learn by their own mistakes ....that's part of growing up . But to leave three children , two of whom were babies , alone at night ( or even during the day) as they did is totally beyond my comprehension I'm afraid   I was also quite shocked to find out that this doesn't appear to have been a one night thing  

Leaving their kids alone was a terrible decision.

I also feel very sad for their loss and pain.

You summed it up too, what i was going to say Yogi. I was shocked too when Gerry said that Maddie had woken up the night before, but they still went out again that fateful night, as they had done for the last 5 nights they said. I am a mother and grandmother too, not perfect by any manner of means but no way would leave 3 very small children alone in a foreign country and go off to socialise , quite a bit distance away i may add, with no childcare organised. I am not inhumane that i dont feel some sympathy but i am more angry now after watching last nights programme, especially after Kate,s comment that they arent responsible for what happened to Maddie. 
I dont think you have to be a parent to give an opinion either.

This is very true - I was talking to a friend who said that lots of people used to do the baby listening thing - and it was indeed encouraged.

I personally, wouldn't have done what they did - but I truly think they were very naive, rather than arrogant or selfish

I have tried and deleted about 5 attempts to reply to Suzy post. .but I will try again and not go into too much of a rant..

the line "no offence intended to anyone" is what I find offensive. .if you dismiss those of us that are childless as we cannot possibly know how it feels it is offensive.. and I do take offence to that..  it may not be the same kind of love but if you have loved or do love then you would be just as protective of and distraught if any harm came to those you loved..

I am all for parents going on holidays with kids and using the crèche or child minding services. . leaving them, and such young ones too, completely alone in a  strange country however is a totally different matter.. how could you not worry like mad that babies were alone in a room which was also unlocked... it doesn't bear thinking about..  it's not like you are leaving them alone in the old days within  a community where people would notice a 'stranger' it's a foreign country where you don't know anyone... if you want a grown up holiday with grown up eating times and bed times then don't take the kids. . if you do take them then take care of them or ensure somebody is doing it if it's not you. .

*hopes didn't get too ranty this time *

I agree Olly when you say about family holidays, sorry cant highlight, and been on holidays in caravans /chalets. You either go out in the evening in relays, if you are with another family, or simply stay in if the children are sleeping. If you do want to go out in the evening as a family get the children having a nap in the afternoon then take them out with you. I have been on many holidays with my sister and the kids and we make a plan. Never, ever would think of getting them to bed, then go out and leave them. If you want an adult only holiday then leave the kids at home. Its really just common sense and being responsible.

Scatts, I think the phrase "used to" is important.

Parents used to put children in cars without seat belts or car seats, and used to smoke around children, but only the most negligent and selfish of parents would continue to do those things nowadays - imo. 

I do feel for them, because I wouldn't wish this situation on my worst enemy but my sympathy is mostly reserved for Madeleine.

I agree with both of you. The safety of the children should always be a parent or guardian's first priority.

Before i leave this thread, as i have said all i wish to do so here, give a thought to Maddies siblings, yes i know their names but dont wish to say them, one day they will ask questions, and i do hope the parents can answer. 
 for Madeleine, wherever she is.

I think the parents need to take some of the blame, as others have said if they wanted to go out at night then either go on a adults only holiday or take the children with you, in my experience they love getting ready and going to places where they have discos 

They both knew that the children had been upset the night before but still choose to do it again and leave them in an unlocked room where anything could have happened (ie a fire etc) in this case the worst happened and the parents imo have to take some of the blame, personally I'd be ashamed to go on TV, the only innocent in all of this is Madeline 

I second Olly and Yogi's comments.

And whatever has happened - oh please God don't let the little girl have suffered  

Joe i'm a parent of 3 and i wouldn't dream of leaving them on their own at 3yrs old and under... That's like me popping round to my friends house a few doors down the road for dinner while my kids were asleep at home alone.

Now I'm sure they never thought for one minute one of them would be kidnapped because that is a rare danger when leaving your kids alone... To me there were other dangers though.... fire.... flood.... one of them took really ill... all of which are reasons young children shouldn't be left

well said Jen

Do you know what I was thinking about.. all the times I have been somewhere where there have been young children present I have never been able to relax properly because I cannot stop keeping my eye on them to make sure they are ok.. and they weren't even mine.. especially if it has been a BBQ or summat.. so I would imagine those lucky enough to not be childless would find it even harder to not keep an eye on their young uns in those circumstances.. hence my inability to understand the McCanns reasoning that it is ok to leave children little more than babies alone. .

it also amazes me that their mates thought it was ok to leave the kids and didn't say a word to them... I know I'd say to a mate of mine no, we'll stay in and eat or bring the kids but we ain't going if you are leaving them alone .. 

 Good points, Jen.

I agree with what you say Yogi about the 'used to' that's correct. 

I, however, have avoided reading most of the vile comments about the McCanns, because whatever terrible thing they did by leaving their children alone in their bedroom (and I personally would never have done this before this happened), they have the most awful life sentence hanging over them every day - they will never have a 'proper life'.  I know a lot of people have terrible things to deal with, but I can't slag off and criticise people when I myself am far from perfect and cannot bear to think about what they go through all the time.  If people feel no compassion for their suffering, then I think it says more about the attackers.  It's done - they made an horrific mistake - I think they were very, very wrong and I cannot let my two out of my sight ever, but I find this nastiness towards them horribly depressing

On CrimeWatch at 28mins 20sec Kate says,

"I did persecute myself over our decision to eat at the tapas restaurant ... why did we think that was ok?"

Scatterby you've pretty much summed up how I feel. I never have and never will say anything accusatory towards the McCann's because they will have blamed themselves for the last 6 years, with Kate McCann admitting she's had thoughts of suicide. Every time there's a new article or tv show highlighting their situation there's always been a section of the public wanting to vent their anger at the McCann's - and I understand that because this is about an innocent child coming into contact with one or more who had evil intent - but then the news dies down and everyone naturally gets on with their life while the McCann's still have to live with it every day of every year since it happened.

On a more positive note, since Crime Watch they've received around a thousand calls with 2 people giving the same name to the e fit pic Why it's taken so long for the new timeline to come to light shows how lacking the earlier investigations have been. I hope that at last this new investigation will lead to the truth and truly hope Maddie is still alive.

Very true.

I hope so too - it would be so helpful to them to know what had happend and if it turned out that she was still alive, that would obviously be unbelievably wonderful

I've just watched the Crimewatch, and I still feel, like I did originally, if they hadn't left her, she would not have gone missing. (And I still refuse to say she was abducted from the apartment). 

What bothered the life out of me when they said she (Madaliene) had asked them at breakfast the morning before she disappeared, where had they been when she was crying in the night?

I have read back on the thread and can understand where Joe and Soozy are coming from, but in the same breath, they (respectfully) are a decade older than I am.  

I think the point I want to get is, I understand that 30 odd years ago it was accepted to leave your children, but in my opinion, due to the advent of the internet, peadophilia is much more prevalent.

Reading back, I've merged posts. 

I just hope you get what I am trying to say.

"And I still refuse to say she was abducted from the apartment"

Why do you think that Cinds?

I'm interested as i haven't really followed the case closely.

My opinion, the parents openly admitted that she had woke up crying the night prior to her disappearance, and she knew where they went to dine, so could it not be said that she woke up, saw they were not there and tried to wander down to the dining place and was taken then, or wandered too far and ended up in the ocean? 

I'd never thought of that as an option - but i suppose it's possible she could have left the building by herself.

I doesn't explain the window being open though.