quote:Originally posted by electric6:
Except a link was posted in this thread that said it was Leukaemia.
Facts shmacts.
I think you're confusing the facts with the issues here.
I think you're confusing the facts with the issues here.
Ronnie Biggs cocked a snook at the Police for years from the comfort of his Brazilian pad. He also aided and abetted the theft of money.
He had Slipper running round like a headless chicken, and he laughed and he laughed. He married and fathered a son in Brazil which in turn gave him residency in Brazil and beyond the reach of the Police. He could not be extradited.
He is old now, but he will never be forgiven by the Establishment. Stealing money as a crime is higher up the food chain than murder. Laughing at the Police is the ultimate crime. Hence the intransigence in the Ronnie Biggs matter.
He had Slipper running round like a headless chicken, and he laughed and he laughed. He married and fathered a son in Brazil which in turn gave him residency in Brazil and beyond the reach of the Police. He could not be extradited.
He is old now, but he will never be forgiven by the Establishment. Stealing money as a crime is higher up the food chain than murder. Laughing at the Police is the ultimate crime. Hence the intransigence in the Ronnie Biggs matter.
quote:Originally posted by Twee Surgeon:
Ronnie Biggs cocked a snook at the Police for years from the comfort of his Brazilian pad. He also aided and abetted the theft of money.
He had Slipper running round like a headless chicken, and he laughed and he laughed. He married and fathered a son in Brazil which in turn gave him residency in Brazil and beyond the reach of the Police. He could not be extradited.
He is old now, but he will never be forgiven by the Establishment. Stealing money as a crime is higher up the food chain than murder. Laughing at the Police is the ultimate crime. Hence the intransigence in the Ronnie Biggs matter.
I think that you are more than likely right there
quote:Originally posted by FGG Aka Crocodile Rock:quote:Originally posted by Suzi-Q:
It does seem as though the justice system is a bit screwed up. As far as I am aware, Biggs has done no other crimes since he escaped. What is the point of keeping him in? Surely it would save the taxpayers a few quid if he were released.
I don't understand it. That Mandolf bloke got 150 years for conning several people out of billions, and murderers are given a lot less time.
That's beside the point....if he wanted to have been out and free by now he should have stayed in prison where he was originally and he'd have been out a long time ago....instead he decided to live it up in Brazil for 30 years!
I'm with you omn that croc .....the 'establishment' will never, ever forgive him for rubbing there noses in it to such an extent. If he hadn't escaped he would have served his time years ago.
The saying is true 'what goes around comes around.'
Perhaps he shouldn't have courted the press so widely and been such an arrogant arse.
quote:Originally posted by Kaytee:
When you see the sentences that some people get for much worse crimes these days. Then Biggs' original sentence was excessive.
OK he escaped, but no matter that the guard was hit,nobody died
He served one year.
quote:Originally posted by Kaytee:quote:Originally posted by Liverpoollass:quote:Originally posted by Kaytee:
When you see the sentences that some people get for much worse crimes these days. Then Biggs' original sentence was excessive.
OK he escaped, but no matter that the guard was hit,nobody died
The guard died a few years later, which was said to be because of being hit over the head during the raid.
Can we really know that LL? If so, then Biggs deseves to finish his sentence
It's said it hastened his demise ....in all honesty bludgeoning someone over the head with a heavy object is pretty bad whether the guy died as a direct result or not isn't it? The fact is he could well have died on the spot as a result so ...........I find the umming and ahhing over it to be irrelevant. I dont for one moment think that they thought ....ooooooh let's not hit him too hard as it might be dangerous.
quote:Originally posted by Soozy woo:
It's said it hastened his demise ....in all honesty bludgeoning someone over the head with a heavy object is pretty bad whether the guy died as a direct result or not isn't it? The fact is he could well have died on the spot as a result so ...........I find the umming and ahhing over it to be irrelevant. I dont for one moment think that they thought ....ooooooh let's not hit him too hard as it might be dangerous.
Absolutely Soozy
quote:It's said it hastened his demise ....in all honesty bludgeoning someone over the head with a heavy object is pretty bad whether the guy died as a direct result or not isn't it? The fact is he could well have died on the spot as a result so ...........I find the umming and ahhing over it to be irrelevant. I dont for one moment think that they thought ....ooooooh let's not hit him too hard as it might be dangerous.
I agree. In the 60s, when the GTR happened, there was not the same medical expertise to determine whether or not Mr Mills suffered brain damage. It is also irrelevant in this case. Mr Mills was lucky that the person who hit him did not kill him instantly. They did not care really because all they were interested in was getting away with the lolly. Sad, but true.
quote:Originally posted by Soozy woo:quote:Originally posted by Kaytee:quote:Originally posted by Liverpoollass:quote:Originally posted by Kaytee:
When you see the sentences that some people get for much worse crimes these days. Then Biggs' original sentence was excessive.
OK he escaped, but no matter that the guard was hit,nobody died
The guard died a few years later, which was said to be because of being hit over the head during the raid.
Can we really know that LL? If so, then Biggs deseves to finish his sentence
It's said it hastened his demise ....in all honesty bludgeoning someone over the head with a heavy object is pretty bad whether the guy died as a direct result or not isn't it? The fact is he could well have died on the spot as a result so ...........I find the umming and ahhing over it to be irrelevant. I dont for one moment think that they thought ....ooooooh let's not hit him too hard as it might be dangerous.
The train driver was never the same after the attack, it affected him really badly and, as has been said, the gang didn't give a fig for what they did. Biggs was quite happy to escape British justice for years and literally stick 2 fingers up at us from the safety of Brazil. If he had served his sentence he would have been out years ago.
Why on earth did they want to steal a train anyway? Wouldn't it have been really difficult to hide?
quote:Originally posted by Daniel J*:
Why on earth did they want to steal a train anyway? Wouldn't it have been really difficult to hide?
Because it was great?
quote:Originally posted by longcat:
The only reason the train robbers got such high sentences was because they made a fool of the police and the government.
Yep
What's that all about too: the male train they robbed? Why are trains either male or female yet ships are always female? 
quote:Originally posted by Daniel J*:
What's that all about too: the male train they robbed? Why are trains either male or female yet ships are always female?
It was a friend of Dorothys and under 21 years old at the time Daniel
They only got 1 year for the robbery, the other 29 were for gross indecency
quote:Originally posted by Daniel J*:
What's that all about too: the male train they robbed? Why are trains either male or female yet ships are always female?
Cos it had sacks?
I agree .... I'm sure people get less time for murder. He has been in prison for 30 yrs now ...surely he's done enough time, for the crime.quote:Originally posted by Lockes no 1 fan:
the man is nearly at deaths door I think he should be released now
Apparently, he is repentant ... it was Jack Straw who said he was unrepentant.
quote:Originally posted by Poker Face:
He has been in prison for 30 yrs now ...surely he's done enough time, for the crime.
Erm ...
quote:Originally posted by Poker Face:
I agree .... I'm sure people get less time for murder. He has been in prison for 30 yrs now ...surely he's done enough time, for the crime.
Prison, or Brazil?
quote:Originally posted by Daniel J*:quote:Originally posted by Poker Face:
He has been in prison for 30 yrs now ...surely he's done enough time, for the crime.
Erm ...
HAHAHA!!
lets see
1 year in nick,....35 years on the run and a few years making use of the free health care in the country cos he got old and ill and had no money left to cover medical bills in his adopted Brazil...
He'd have been out by the mid 70's had he stayed here....
quote:Originally posted by Poker Face:I agree .... I'm sure people get less time for murder. He has been in prison for 30 yrs now ...surely he's done enough time, for the crime.quote:Originally posted by Lockes no 1 fan:
the man is nearly at deaths door I think he should be released now
Apparently, he is repentant ... it was Jack Straw who said he was unrepentant.
30years???????????????? Where you getting your info from? he has served 9 years of a thirty tear sentence ....for over twenty years he was living the high life in Brazil.
If he'd served 30 years or even 20 I'd be inclined to agree with you but ...........you do the crime you take the time! He took pleasure in parading his noteriety for all to see .....living life as a celeb. When he got ill ........he came home to UK so he could be sorted out on the NHS!
I think we're all mistaking the facts for the issues again.
quote:Originally posted by Daniel J*:
I think we're all mistaking the facts for the issues again.
Facts are facts ......issues can be viewed subjectively.
Call me callous but ............I really dont have much sympathy TBH!
Fissues!!
*having only served a third of his 30 yr sentence*
ahh ... I see what you mean
but in all honesty, he's hardly likely to re-offend at the age of 79.
ahh ... I see what you mean
but in all honesty, he's hardly likely to re-offend at the age of 79.
quote:Originally posted by Poker Face:
but in all honesty, he's hardly likely to re-offend at the age of 79.
True, but should all criminals be allowed to defer their sentences, until they are over seventy?
quote:Originally posted by Poker Face:
*having only served a third of his 30 yr sentence*
ahh ... I see what you mean
but in all honesty, he's hardly likely to re-offend at the age of 79.
So what?
He was sentance to 30 years and served only 1 before he went on the run...the fact that he lived free for 35 years when he should have been in prison as far as I am concerned means he should serve the lot.
Prison is also about punishment not just rehabilitation otherwise anyone could say sorry and expect to be let out without having served evena fraction of their sentence.
quote:Originally posted by Poker Face:
*having only served a third of his 30 yr sentence*
ahh ... I see what you mean
but in all honesty, he's hardly likely to re-offend at the age of 79.
I dont think that's the total reasoning behind a prison sentence TBH. I have no idea how old you are but ...........if you'd lived through it I think you may have a better understanding.
I apologise if that's patronising and I may well be wrong but .....................I really dont have too much sympathy for the man.
quote:Originally posted by Soozy woo:quote:Originally posted by Daniel J*:
I think we're all mistaking the facts for the issues again.
Facts are facts ......issues can be viewed subjectively.
Sorry, it's a joke phrase meaning: why worry about the facts when the issues are much more interesting.
Maybe some people are suggesting that regardless of the crime, people might be released from prison because of their age. That's an interesting theory - one I wouldn't necessarily dismiss...
quote:Originally posted by fabienne:
Maybe some people are suggesting that regardless of the crime, people might be released from prison because of their age. That's an interesting theory - one I wouldn't necessarily dismiss...
I dunno. Would it depend on the crime?
quote:Originally posted by Liverpoollass:quote:Originally posted by fabienne:
Maybe some people are suggesting that regardless of the crime, people might be released from prison because of their age. That's an interesting theory - one I wouldn't necessarily dismiss...
I dunno. Would it depend on the crime?
Not sure. If someone had committed an horrendous crime, but is now too old to be able to do it again, maybe that would mean they should be let out?
30 years sentence was far to harsh in the first place in my opinion ,I dont understand why he is unrepentant not doing himself any favours if this is true ,I think he should now be released .
quote:Originally posted by Liverpoollass:quote:Originally posted by fabienne:
Maybe some people are suggesting that regardless of the crime, people might be released from prison because of their age. That's an interesting theory - one I wouldn't necessarily dismiss...
I dunno. Would it depend on the crime?
Hi LL. The GTR and the Moors Murders happened around about the same time, so should Ian Brady get released from Broadmoor? He is getting old too, probably in his late sixties. Would the same criteria apply to him? I think not. It is reported that RB has Alzheimer's Disease so it is a form of cruelty to keep him incarcerated when he probably doesn't even know his own history. It smacks of revenge imo.
quote:Originally posted by Twee Surgeon:
Hi LL. The GTR and the Moors Murders happened around about the same time, so should Ian Brady get released from Broadmoor? He is getting old too, probably in his late sixties. Would the same criteria apply to him? I think not. It is reported that RB has Alzheimer's Disease so it is a form of cruelty to keep him incarcerated when he probably doesn't even know his own history. It smacks of revenge imo.
No way, should Brady ever be released. I just am not sure about Biggs, but agree it does smack of revenge.
As a result of the crime which all the robbers took part in, a man died.. yes it was a long time ago.. but it could have been your Dad/Grandad.. how would you feel then.. 
He did not do his time inside he was free in brazil.having a good time..the same could be said of war criminals.. just 'cos they are old let them off with what they did??? I don't think so..
He did not do his time inside he was free in brazil.having a good time..the same could be said of war criminals.. just 'cos they are old let them off with what they did??? I don't think so..quote:Originally posted by Liverpoollass:quote:Originally posted by Twee Surgeon:
Hi LL. The GTR and the Moors Murders happened around about the same time, so should Ian Brady get released from Broadmoor? He is getting old too, probably in his late sixties. Would the same criteria apply to him? I think not. It is reported that RB has Alzheimer's Disease so it is a form of cruelty to keep him incarcerated when he probably doesn't even know his own history. It smacks of revenge imo.
No way, should Brady ever be released. I just am not sure about Biggs, but agree it does smack of revenge.
Revenge is part of punishment, though. Maybe you're right, and people should be allowed out after a certain age.
I think that there are some criminals that should never be let out - ever.
Not for illness, age or any other consideration.
Some because their crimes are so unacceptable that life should mean life and some because the impulses that led them to commit the crimes can never be neutralised by punishment, therapy etc
I certainly wouldn't put Ronnie Biggs in that bracket or most other robbers tbh.
I
Not for illness, age or any other consideration.
Some because their crimes are so unacceptable that life should mean life and some because the impulses that led them to commit the crimes can never be neutralised by punishment, therapy etc
I certainly wouldn't put Ronnie Biggs in that bracket or most other robbers tbh.
I
quote:Originally posted by Veggieburger:
I think that there are some criminals that should never be let out - ever.
Not for illness, age or any other consideration.
Some because their crimes are so unacceptable that life should mean life and some because the impulses that led them to commit the crimes can never be neutralised by punishment, therapy etc
I certainly wouldn't put Ronnie Biggs in that bracket or most other robbers tbh.
I
I suppose it depends on whether they put other people's lives at risk.
quote:Originally posted by fabienne:quote:Originally posted by Liverpoollass:quote:Originally posted by Twee Surgeon:
Hi LL. The GTR and the Moors Murders happened around about the same time, so should Ian Brady get released from Broadmoor? He is getting old too, probably in his late sixties. Would the same criteria apply to him? I think not. It is reported that RB has Alzheimer's Disease so it is a form of cruelty to keep him incarcerated when he probably doesn't even know his own history. It smacks of revenge imo.
No way, should Brady ever be released. I just am not sure about Biggs, but agree it does smack of revenge.
Revenge is part of punishment, though. Maybe you're right, and people should be allowed out after a certain age.
Hi fab. I agree that revenge has to be part of punishment but only if the person receiving the punishment is aware of it and why it is happening. In Ian Brady's case, he can never be released because he is in a high security hospital wing in Broadmoor. RB is not dangerous imo, he is ill and old, and it would be a mercy to release him and allow his son to enjoy his father's last days.
quote:Originally posted by fabienne:
I suppose it depends on whether they put other people's lives at risk.
yes I think that is really important but I do believe that with the right mix of punishment and rehabilitation a career criminal can be released and would not reoffend.
The fact that a lot of them do shows we haven't got the penal system right.
But when you are dealing with people who are driven my impulses/drives that they cannot control such as serial killers, paedophiles or rapists etc then my own feeling is that they can never be made safe enough to be released