Karyn Maughan ‏@karynmaughan 10m10 minutes ago
State has proposed 18 November for date of #OscarPistorius leave to appeal application. Defense hasn't agreed, wants date in Dec @eNCAnews

 Pengy 

the appeal points 

4 and 7 ring very true for me 

From the DCS Act: "The electronic monitoring device must be fitted to the ankle or wrist without causing a risk to the person’s health."

Oscar Pistorius 'could be denied early release because he has no ankles to attach an electronic tag'

The Paralympian was given a five year sentence for the manslaughter of his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp - but hoped to qualify for home detention curfew

 

Getty

 

Oscar Pistorius may be denied early release from his gang-ridden prison because he has no ankles, making it impossible to attach an electronic tag.

The Paralympian, 27, was given a five-year sentence for the manslaughter of his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp at his home in Pretoria, South Africa.

He had hoped to qualify for home detention curfew with a tag after 10 months.

However, prison bosses have told him he is ineligible for their tagging scheme, which began in April, because he has no ankle to which they can attach the device.

The tags cannot be put on offenders' wrists as they can be removed too easily.

Pistorius, who had both legs amputated as a child, believed his lack of previous convictions for violence made him suitable to spend the majority of his sentence at his uncle's home in Waterkloof, where there is a gym and swimming pool

But he is currently being kept in isolation in Pretoria's Kgosi Mampuru prison, where he enjoys few luxuries to his cell two-by-three-metre cell.

The athlete - dubbed Blade Runner - is said to have calmed down after an initial meltdown - inmates are said to have heard him sobbing himself to sleep.

He wakes at 5.30am every day and is served a breakfast of porridge and coffee or juice. At midday, he is brought a basic meal, before slices of buttered bread and a hot drink at 4pm - the final meal of the day.

Prison sources told Mail Online: "We cannot use [tags] on false limbs which could be left somewhere static while the offender goes missing."

Pistorius was jailed last month after admitting shooting dead his former girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp in the early hours of Valentine's Day last year.

He insisted it was a tragic accident when he mistook the 29-year-old model and presenter for an intruder.

 

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/w...denied-early-4603151

 

 

TALKING POINT: If leave for appeal is granted, #OscarPistorius can apply for bail and possibly be released on bail. Have your say.

appeal day tomorrow for OP 

I'm going to have to wait for the news...if you're about can you stick some spam in the thread Pengy...I have a school run and my lovely little grandsons nativity play..he's a shepherd and probably a sweary one 

will do   it's not being televised anyhoo which doesn't matter as today is the last day of my Sky subscription so wouldn't be able to get it anyway 

but it would have been on line...I can't see Masipa saying no, otherwise it's heading for the Supreme Courts (think)...is that what it is in SA? 

I have a feeling it will be going to Bloemfontain which is the Supreme Court - he shouldn't in my view get bail - he's been found guilty - think it's the State that is bringing it so can't see why he should get bail 

exactly, it makes no sense 

Still reckon we'll be done by lunchtime. Barry Roux gives an assurance he will be 'very short'. Looks pensive, considering Nel's argument.

Nel, not all circumstantial evidence is accepted in cases. #OscarPistorius #OscarTrial Various reason for rejection. #BarryRoux

this Barry Roux account is actually David Dadic 

I love how we tell judges that they are wrong but we do it politely "M'lady with the utmost respect..." #OscarPistorius #BarryRoux

#OscarPistorius Nel argues OP must have reasonably foreseen he would shoot someone behind the door. What else did he intend. Just to shoot?

#OscarPistorius says if there is a set of facts, you need to apply the law to it MV

Masipa ignored state of room following evidence that police mishandled crime scene. @eNCAnews #OscarPistorius

Nel says court wrong to not take into account state of #OscarPistorius room - which he says show OP was lying @eNCAnews

#OscarPistorius Nel says the court didn't deal with circumstantial evidence - things that would have rendered OP's version impossible MV

Eskom: No daytime load shedding on Tuesday http://bit.ly/1yv6fPB .

  thought I'd slip that one in and aren't we lucky we don't get load shedding here although you never know 

#OscarPistorius Nel: the court did not deal with the circumstantial evidence that rendered Pistorius’s version impossible. BB

#OscarPistorius Nel: the court excluding circumstantial evidence is a question of law - e refers to case law. BB

#OscarPistorius Nel says the court should either have accepted or rejected OP's version - not construct one MV

Nel peppering his remarks to Masipa with "with respect" and "with utmost respect" as he tries to demolish her judgment. #Pistorius

#OscarPistorius Nel says the court accepted 1 of a plethora of versions - he says the court constructed a version - it shouldn't have MV

it's anti corruption day in SA so there are more tweets about that 

Nel argues Masipa was forced to construct a version of shooting for #OscarPistorius: that he intended to shoot, not to kill @eNCAnews

#OscarPistorius Nel focusing now on 'intention' and the courts reliance on OP's 'plethora of versions'. Nel says court erred here.

#OscarPistorius Nel reads through the judgment - where Masipa made ref to Steenkamp and how OP couldn't have know it was her MV

#OscarPistorius Nel: When he armed himself and went to the toilet, he had the intention to shoot #sabcnews

Hippo kills Limpopo man http://bit.ly/1zIirJP .

dangerous place that SA 

#OscarPistorius Nel says it should have been asked if OP could have foreseen killing whoever was behind the door MV

Nel: "The court asked the wrong question. Those questions that should have been asked were never asked." #Pistorius

MT @athi_saba: #OscarPistorius Nel argues there's no way one could shoot through a door of a tiny cubicle and not know of fatal consequences

#OscarPistorius Nel says to say OP never intended to kill because he says so is an incorrect application MV

Nel: Dolus eventualis "will find it's inconceivable that he had any intention other than to kill that person or accepted that he may".

#OscarPistorius Nel says another court (applying dollus eventualis) might find that OP accepted that he may kill MV

Nel: we argue that Appeal Court likely to find that #OscarPistorius foresaw that he could kill person behind door,accepted he may @eNCAnews

#OscarPistorius Nel questions finding OP intended to shoot but never to kill - he says the intention was never really dealth with MV

#OscarPistorius Nel: court found that the accused had the intention to shoot, but found he never intended to kill. What was his intention?

Nel cites J Arthur Brown appeal ruling, which found Brown had criminal intent despite not wanting results of his actions - dolus eventualis

Nel: He stood at the door, knowing there was a person on the other side, intending to shoot. That was dolus eventualis. #Pistorius

Nel: The accused was trained in the use of a firearm, knew a person was in there. Why would he not have foreseen the fatal consequences?

I am convinced this is a question of law by application of fact . Question of fact would be "how did it happen?" Of law "what is the effect?

#OscarPistorius Nel: trained in the use of firearms, knowing how big the cubicle was - how did he not foresee the consequences? BB

#OscarPistorius Nel reads case law - it is possible that he may in the eye of the law have the intention, even though he does not wish it.

Nel argues that the finding of negligence is not factual but an application of law. #Pistorius

#OscarPistorius Nel: says the application of the law principles to the facts is a question of law. BB

#OscarPistorius Nel saying if found that court applied principle of dolus eventualis incorrectly OP is guilty of murder MV

#OscarPistorius the defence is opposing the state’s application arguing that the state intends appealing on matters of fact, now law. BB

#OscarPistorius Nel addressing central issue of appeal - whether state is appealing on law or on fact. He says on law. Defence says on fact.

#OscarPistorius Nel: further questions whether the legal principles pertaining to circumstantial evidence were properly applied. BB

#OscarPistorius Nel says OP should have been convicted on count 1, the murder charge MV

Nel: "I don't have to convince this court that I'm correct." I only have to convince it that supreme court of appeal will hear the case.

Nel argues state believes it can persuade Appeal Court to hear #OscarPistorius appeal "even though there was culpable homicide conviction"

Masipa listens intently, chin resting on hand. Legal expert James Grant hands Nel a note on an iPad. Two police officers stand by dock.

#OscarPistorius So... as warned... this appeal is extremely technical with dense legal argument. Very academic debate.

Karyn Maughan ‏@karynmaughan <small class="time"> 1h1 hour ago</small>

Nel argues that Seekoei ruling - from the 80s - has been superseded by a constitutional court judgement. No longer relevant @eNCAnews

That's pretty much what happened until I got here 

#OscarPistorius Nel says all there has to be is a resonable chance they will convince the SCA MV

#OscarPistorius Nel says it is difficult to tell between a factual and a legal question - he goes into the detail MV

#OscarPistorius matter resumes with Nel concluding his argument. BB

#OscarPistorius Court resumes. Nel back on his feet tying up a few loose ends and then Count Four which is the ammunition charge.

#OscarPistorius Nel says he is almost done MV

quick and to the point   wonder how long Masipa will take - questions being asked on twitter why is it that two female judges have both failed the female victims in these cases (Dewani as well) 

#OscarPistorius says he is sure there will be argument that State is trying to mask its argument as questions of law, when it's fact MV

Nel and Roux share a joke across court during the tea break. #Pistorius

Nel: "We are convinced that in our argument, the points we make are not points of fact but points of law." #Pistorius

Nel says he expects #OscarPistorius lawyers to argue state trying to disguise its dispute of factual findings as questions of law@eNCAnews

#OscarPistorius Nel oves on to the acquittal on the illegal possession of ammunition charge. BB

Nel moves onto ammunition charge - says mere possession of illegal ammunition makes #OscarPistorius guilty @eNCAnews

Nel on ammunition charge: "Ownership of the ammunition is irrelevant. The fact the accused had possession of them in his safe is sufficient"

#OscarPistorius was acquitted on possession of ammunition because of 'intent'. Nel says possession is sufficient to convict.

#OscarPistorius Nel says it would never have been the legislature's intention that people can hold ammo if it doesn't belong to them MV

#OscarPistorius Nel concludes - now for Mr Roux. BB

looks like Nel got assistance from James Grant the lecturer of law at Wits University - he said through the sentencing he thought Masipa got it wrong on the basis of applying the law 

#OscarPistorius Roux says they won't go into detail, but will simply highlight certain points MV

#OscarPistorius Roux says he is satisfied that the court has already seen his written heads. He’ll highlight main points. BB

Barry Roux now argues for #OscarPistorius, opposing leave to appeal on both conviction and sentence @eNCAnews

Roux: In every single paragraph where the state alleges a failure by the court, it's not correct. #Pistorius

Roux: Every single point raised by the state in its application, we show in the record the court took took that into account. #Pistorius

Roux: You cannot simply say another court might reach a different conclusion. There have to be "material misdirections" and there are not.

#OscarPistorius Roux argues OP didn't just get 10months - Nel argued this point MV

#OscarPistorius Roux: the trial court makes a value judgment (on sentencing) and it better placed to make the decision. BB

#OscarPistorius Roux says the sentence is not 'only ten months' as State argues. Says it's discretionary. Incorrect to say 'light sentence'.

#OscarPistorius Roux: to appeal the state must show a misdirection. BB

Roux: it's not correct to say #OscarPistorius will be released after ten months. He only becomes eligible for release then @eNCAnews

Roux: when #OscarPistorius is released, he will be placed under correctional supervision. This isn't a light sentence @eNCAnews

#OscarPistorius Roux says it isn't "for the State to get over some hurdles. It must first get out of the starting blocks" MV

Roux argues state hasn't got through starting blocks: showing that it is mounting a challenge to a legal finding, not factual one @eNCAnews

#OscarPistorius Roux responding now to State's argument on State vs Seekoei and how Nel is wrong on interpretation.

#OscarPistorius Roux responding now to State's argument on State vs Seekoei and how Nel is wrong on interpretation.

tweets aren't coming through atm 

@JacaNews 12: #PistroiusTrial - State says court showed too much mercy & emotional Yolande #Korkie forgives "Too much hate in the world"

#OscarPistorius Roux: arguing that Nel’s application of Seekoei and the Basson ConCourt finding have been incorrectly interpreted. BB

must be boring, dry legal testimony from both advocates 

#Roux argues state hasn't got through starting blocks: showing that it is mounting a challenge to a legal finding, not factual one

Roux: The state has no right to appeal on an error of fact. Even if it's wrong, and we say it's not. #Pistorius

#OscarPistorius Roux: A 'proven fact' is not a fact that is before the court. It is a fact that is proven by the court to be true.

#OscarPistorius Roux: delving into case law - seldom in a murder case is there direct evidence related to accused’s state of mind… BB

#OscarPistorius Roux: inference must be drawn in relation to the accused’s state of mind - which the court accepts as proven facts. BB

Gerrie Nel tries to demolish Oscar verdict and sentence >> http://www.enca.com/south-africa/gerrie-nel-tries-demolish-oscar-verdict-and-sentence … #OscarPistorius

#OscarPistorius Roux dealing with what a fact is - says a proven fact isn't a fact before the court, but fact proven by court to be true MV

#OscarPistorius Roux addressing whether State is appealing on fact or on law - adamant that Nel is arguing on facts before court.

Roux quoting case law: Seldom in a murder case is there direct evidence relating to the accused's state of mind. #Pistorius

Roux: the one thing the state won't include in argument is court's finding that #OscarPistorius intended to shoot but NOT to kill @eNCAnews

I really do hope everyone is following the argument by Roux comprehensively. Technical argument, yes. But incredible jurisprudence.

#OscarPistorius Roux asks if the factual finding is that OP didn't intend to kill, can it ever be dolus eventualis? MV

Roux: this court dealt with the law correctly, but found on facts that #OscarPistorius did not intend to kill @eNCAnews

Roux: On what basis can it be suggested on the factual finding that it was dolus in any form? #Pistorius

If you're an aspirant lawyer or legal aficionado then legal argument from Roux and Nel is master class. For the layman, not so much.

Roux: the law is that you can't appeal against factual findings. @eNCAnews #OscarPistorius

#OscarPistorius Roux says the State can't say it isn't a factual finding - ref again to State not getting out of the starting blocks MV

#DewaniTrial #Breaking Shrien Dewani has arrived at CT airport and has passed through security. RE

#OscarPistorius Roux says once you find it's a question of law, then you can look if another court can make another finding MV

Roux: "You can only reserve a question of law if it is a question of law... They must first establish it is a question of law." #Pistorius

#OscarPistorius Roux argues the State doesn't get past step 1 - so question if another court would make another finding doesn't work here MV

#OscarPistorius Roux says that is the end of the matter and moves on MV

Roux: The court made a factual finding that he did not foresee the possibility. Even if it's a serious mistake of fact, we cannot interfere.

#OscarPistorius Roux turns to count 4 - the ammo charge MV

#OscarPistorius Roux says there are 2 steps - meaning of possession, fault in possession MV

#OscarPistorius Roux: there is no way the state can overcome the problem of the factual findings. BB

Roux wraps up: there is no way the state can overcome the problem that this court's finding on dolus eventualis was a factual one @eNCAnews

Roux: I would ask the state to read your judgment and say which part of the law you got wrong. You didn't @eNCAnews #OscarPistorius

Roux on the state: "The problem is they don't like, they don't appreciate your factual finding... I would ask them to read your judgment."

#OscarPistorius Roux impassioned about application of dolus eventualis: You absolutely correctly applied it. They just don't like it!

#OscarPistorius Roux is finished. Nel has nothing to add.

#OscarPistorius Roux pointing his finger and gesticulating for emphasis as he assures Masipa she did absolutely the right thing in judgment.

#OscarPistorius Masipa says she wants to think about it, we adjourn until tomorrow MV

Mansion will deliver appeal ruling tomorrow #OscarPistorius @eNCAnews

#OscarPistorius Masipa thanks counsel. Back tomorrow for judgment. BB

that's it until tomorrow 

hope that was enough spam for your Dameship 

Had to nip out this morning, will now read back. Thanks for spamming, Pengy, it is much appreciated.

 I may need to google SA load shedding.