quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:
I would like it lots if they extended this new thinking through all other areas of government and corporate life with a particular emphasis on income tax.

What has this to do with The Queen and Someone O'Gara? I hear you ask. Indeed!

Indeed!

Oh, and no idea!

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:
What has this to do with The Queen and Someone O'Gara? I hear you ask. Indeed!

Well, the OP has said that the Queen should not be treated with any more respect than anyone else. Is that true? Perhaps not as a human being but she has a role as Queen. It's a cultural institution and symbol. In some ways, the symbol is like a flag. Is it disrepectful for someone to burn a flag but not disrespectful for someone to treat the Queen as a normal person rather than a monarch in our culture?

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:
What has this to do with The Queen and Someone O'Gara? I hear you ask. Indeed!

Well, the OP has said that the Queen should not be treated with any more respect than anyone else. Is that true? Perhaps not as a human being but she has a role as Queen. How does this make her better than anyone else? What has she achieved to be treated any better than anyone else?

It's a cultural institution and symbol. In some ways, the symbol is like a flag. Is it disrepectful for someone to burn a flag but not disrespectful for someone to treat the Queen as a normal person rather than a monarch in our culture? You are comparing chalk and cheese, burning a flag is intentional disrespect, having your hands in your pocket when greeting the queen although not ideal manners it's hardly disrespectful. Like someone else said why can Lizzie wear gloves when greeting people without anyone else commenting on it?

quote:

Originally posted by Irish-Princess:
Like someone else said why can Lizzie wear gloves when greeting people without anyone else commenting on it?[/b]

Hairy palms?

quote:

Originally posted by Irish-Princess:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:
What has this to do with The Queen and Someone O'Gara? I hear you ask. Indeed!

Well, the OP has said that the Queen should not be treated with any more respect than anyone else. Is that true? Perhaps not as a human being but she has a role as Queen. How does this make her better than anyone else? What has she achieved to be treated any better than anyone else?

It's a cultural institution and symbol. In some ways, the symbol is like a flag. Is it disrepectful for someone to burn a flag but not disrespectful for someone to treat the Queen as a normal person rather than a monarch in our culture? You are comparing chalk and cheese, burning a flag is intentional disrespect, having your hands in your pocket when greeting the queen although not ideal manners it's hardly disrespectful. Like someone else said why can Lizzie wear gloves when greeting people without anyone else commenting on it?

Well in my opinion Her Majesty is above reproach in her dealings with people. And she does represent her country and is therefore entitled to respect as a figurehead in just the same way as a national flag is.

quote:

Originally posted by squiggle:
You make a gigantic leap from a society where injustice is inherent and regard that as the status quo and therefore a culture.

You make an assumption that equality is justice. Why is equal treatment just? Isn't that just a cultural thing to think that we all ought to be treated as equal in, say, law? Furthermore, why treat, say, men and women equally? The genders are different. Was it unjust that men did business away from the home and women raised children and organised the home? Perhaps their society worked more efficiently that way to almost everyone's benefit.

What was wrong inherently with the feudal system? It was believed by almost everyone that the monarch was a monarch through divine right. If people were born into a level in society then that was their place because it was the will of god. It was probably almost heretical to aspire to another level. People within a level were equal but not people of different levels.

I think you're applying a modern liberal democratic way of thinking about justice to the past where it is probably not appropriate.

I'll try and put this as not to offend but I think when the royal family and the queen is involved there is an element of brain washing involved, look at the nation anthem for instance.

There is also an element of superority over other nations.

O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix,
Oh, save us all!


also there was once an anti-scottish verse inserted:

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King.

There you go. The results of nationalism and patriotism again. We'd probably be better off toning down our national identities and just getting on with stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by Irish-Princess:
I'll try and put this as not to offend but I think when the royal family and the queen is involved there is an element of brain washing involved, look at the nation anthem for instance.

There is also an element of superority over other nations.

O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix,
Oh, save us all!


also there was once an anti-scottish verse inserted:

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King.

Luckily, most of us only ever hear the first verse and only half of us know the words to that!

Please don't all jump down my neck, but do any of you think this discussion has now been done to death?

quote:

Originally posted by Hollygolightly:
Please don't all jump down my neck, but do any of you think this discussion has now been done to death?

But we are sorting out the future of humanity!

I don't think anyone is upset, are they?

quote:

Originally posted by Blizzie:

quote:

Originally posted by Hollygolightly:
Please don't all jump down my neck, but do any of you think this discussion has now been done to death?

But we are sorting out the future of humanity!
:

I don't think anyone is upset, are they?

Pardon me M'uh Lady...doffs cap :blush - not upset but slightly ever so in above my head 'maam

The chancellor of the university I went to was a member of the royal family. When I went on stage to collect my rolled up thingy, I refused to bow my head.

quote:

Originally posted by Hollygolightly:
Pardon me M'uh Lady...doffs cap :blush - not upset but slightly ever so in above my head 'maam

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
The chancellor of the university I went to was a member of the royal family. When I went on stage to collect my rolled up thingy, I refused to bow my head.

I have heard talk of such 'practices', but I didn't realise they did it on stages!

Dunno what you're all arguing about.
The English tyrannised the Irish for centuries,but the Irish are now tryannising(sp) the world with Bono.Does that not restore the balance?

quote:

Originally posted by Mazzystar:
Dunno what you're all arguing about.
The English tyrannised the Irish for centuries,but the Irish are now tryannising(sp) the world with Bono.Does that not restore the balance?

and bewitched

quote:

Originally posted by Shizzlex:

quote:

Originally posted by Mazzystar:
Dunno what you're all arguing about.
The English tyrannised the Irish for centuries,but the Irish are now tryannising(sp) the world with Bono.Does that not restore the balance?

and bewitched

And Louis Walsh

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

I think you're applying a modern liberal democratic way of thinking about justice to the past where it is probably not appropriate.

I think you and I will agree to disagree about injustice being inherently unstable. It is my firm belief that there is a natural law that right will prevail. I think you yourself referred to the feudal system of the past as being wrong, which it was. Strong people can force others into subjugation but my belief is that any inherently unjust system is doomed to failure, which, perhaps, history shows us to be true.

As I say I think you will look at things your way and I will look at things my way. I don't think I could cope with your mindset which, to my way of thinking, seems very fatalistic.

quote:

Originally posted by Mazzystar:

quote:

Originally posted by Shizzlex:

quote:

Originally posted by Mazzystar:
Dunno what you're all arguing about.
The English tyrannised the Irish for centuries,but the Irish are now tryannising(sp) the world with Bono.Does that not restore the balance?

and bewitched

And Louis Walsh

And the NOLAN Sisters

If the queen was going past my house i wouldnt even get up to look out the window

quote:

Originally posted by Hollygolightly:

quote:

Originally posted by Mazzystar:

quote:

Originally posted by Shizzlex:

quote:

Originally posted by Mazzystar:
Dunno what you're all arguing about.
The English tyrannised the Irish for centuries,but the Irish are now tryannising(sp) the world with Bono.Does that not restore the balance?

and bewitched

And Louis Walsh

And the NOLAN Sisters

Now you're going too far, do not diss the Nolan Sisters!

quote:

Originally posted by squiggle:

quote:

Originally posted by Hollygolightly:

quote:

Originally posted by Mazzystar:

quote:

Originally posted by Shizzlex:

quote:

Originally posted by Mazzystar:
Dunno what you're all arguing about.
The English tyrannised the Irish for centuries,but the Irish are now tryannising(sp) the world with Bono.Does that not restore the balance?

and bewitched

And Louis Walsh

And the NOLAN Sisters

Now you're going too far, do not diss the Nolan Sisters!

Beggin yer pardon maam

quote:

Originally posted by Hollygolightly:

quote:

Originally posted by Mazzystar:

quote:

Originally posted by Shizzlex:

quote:

Originally posted by Mazzystar:
Dunno what you're all arguing about.
The English tyrannised the Irish for centuries,but the Irish are now tryannising(sp) the world with Bono.Does that not restore the balance?

and bewitched

And Louis Walsh

And the NOLAN Sisters

And Boyzone

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by squiggle:
You make a gigantic leap from a society where injustice is inherent and regard that as the status quo and therefore a culture.

You make an assumption that equality is justice. Why is equal treatment just? Isn't that just a cultural thing to think that we all ought to be treated as equal in, say, law? Furthermore, why treat, say, men and women equally? The genders are different. Was it unjust that men did business away from the home and women raised children and organised the home? Perhaps their society worked more efficiently that way to almost everyone's benefit.

What was wrong inherently with the feudal system? It was believed by almost everyone that the monarch was a monarch through divine right. If people were born into a level in society then that was their place because it was the will of god. It was probably almost heretical to aspire to another level. People within a level were equal but not people of different levels.

I think you're applying a modern liberal democratic way of thinking about justice to the past where it is probably not appropriate.

I agree Daniel, as long as I get more then you, and you do as I say because i'm better then you.

quote:

Originally posted by ilovewillyoung:
If the queen was going past my house i wouldnt even get up to look out the window

quote:

Originally posted by squiggle:

quote:

Originally posted by Irish-Princess:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:
What has this to do with The Queen and Someone O'Gara? I hear you ask. Indeed!

Well, the OP has said that the Queen should not be treated with any more respect than anyone else. Is that true? Perhaps not as a human being but she has a role as Queen. How does this make her better than anyone else? What has she achieved to be treated any better than anyone else?

It's a cultural institution and symbol. In some ways, the symbol is like a flag. Is it disrepectful for someone to burn a flag but not disrespectful for someone to treat the Queen as a normal person rather than a monarch in our culture? You are comparing chalk and cheese, burning a flag is intentional disrespect, having your hands in your pocket when greeting the queen although not ideal manners it's hardly disrespectful. Like someone else said why can Lizzie wear gloves when greeting people without anyone else commenting on it?

Well in my opinion Her Majesty is above reproach in her dealings with people. And she does represent her country and is therefore entitled to respect as a figurehead in just the same way as a national flag is.

World peace romanticism AND blind adoration for the establishment figure, somewhat illogical I have to say.

Well I'd have to agree that its a hard compromise twixt the two

quote:

Originally posted by squiggle:
As I say I think you will look at things your way and I will look at things my way. I don't think I could cope with your mindset which, to my way of thinking, seems very fatalistic.

Well, you have a peculiar definition of culture which I don't recognise and your aspirations seem to be some sort of totalitarian utopia which I could never accept. I think human nature inevitably leads to diversity and progress follows from that, especially in times of need. In fact, genius flourishes and innovation happens because people don't "believe in their values and are all agreed".

That's why I respect a right to have an alternative opinion. As John Stuart Mill says, the opinion might not be wholly right but it might contain some truth which is useful, the fact that it dissents helps keep the current way of thinking fresh and on its toes, the current way of thinking is not certain to be right anyway, and allowing dissent encourages people to think of different and possibly better ways of doing things. That doesn't sound "fatalistic" to me.

quote:

Originally posted by JasmineJ:

quote:

Originally posted by squiggle:

quote:

Originally posted by Irish-Princess:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:
What has this to do with The Queen and Someone O'Gara? I hear you ask. Indeed!

Well, the OP has said that the Queen should not be treated with any more respect than anyone else. Is that true? Perhaps not as a human being but she has a role as Queen. How does this make her better than anyone else? What has she achieved to be treated any better than anyone else?

It's a cultural institution and symbol. In some ways, the symbol is like a flag. Is it disrepectful for someone to burn a flag but not disrespectful for someone to treat the Queen as a normal person rather than a monarch in our culture? You are comparing chalk and cheese, burning a flag is intentional disrespect, having your hands in your pocket when greeting the queen although not ideal manners it's hardly disrespectful. Like someone else said why can Lizzie wear gloves when greeting people without anyone else commenting on it?

Well in my opinion Her Majesty is above reproach in her dealings with people. And she does represent her country and is therefore entitled to respect as a figurehead in just the same way as a national flag is.

World peace romanticism AND blind adoration for the establishment figure, somewhat illogical I have to say.

Not adoration Jasmine J, respect. There is a difference you know.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by squiggle:
As I say I think you will look at things your way and I will look at things my way. I don't think I could cope with your mindset which, to my way of thinking, seems very fatalistic.

Well, you have a peculiar definition of culture which I don't recognise and your aspirations seem to be some sort of totalitarian utopia which I could never accept. I think human nature inevitably leads to diversity and progress follows from that, especially in times of need. In fact, genius flourishes and innovation happens because people don't "believe in their values and are all agreed".

That's why I respect a right to have an alternative opinion. As John Stuart Mill says, the opinion might not be wholly right but it might contain some truth which is useful, the fact that it dissents helps keep the current way of thinking fresh and on its toes, the current way of thinking is not certain to be right anyway, and allowing dissent encourages people to think of different and possibly better ways of doing things. That doesn't sound "fatalistic" to me.

Where did you pick up from my threads any hint of totalitarianism? Very far from my way of thinking and of course dissent is a necessary part of any society. That does not preclude a belief in a respect for one's fellow human beings and a goal of working towards all men and women having a right to reach their full potential without being bullied or subjugated. Where this differs from your way of thinking I have no idea.

quote:

Originally posted by squiggle:

quote:

Originally posted by JasmineJ:

quote:

Originally posted by squiggle:

quote:

Originally posted by Irish-Princess:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:
What has this to do with The Queen and Someone O'Gara? I hear you ask. Indeed!

Well, the OP has said that the Queen should not be treated with any more respect than anyone else. Is that true? Perhaps not as a human being but she has a role as Queen. How does this make her better than anyone else? What has she achieved to be treated any better than anyone else?

It's a cultural institution and symbol. In some ways, the symbol is like a flag. Is it disrepectful for someone to burn a flag but not disrespectful for someone to treat the Queen as a normal person rather than a monarch in our culture? You are comparing chalk and cheese, burning a flag is intentional disrespect, having your hands in your pocket when greeting the queen although not ideal manners it's hardly disrespectful. Like someone else said why can Lizzie wear gloves when greeting people without anyone else commenting on it?

Well in my opinion Her Majesty is above reproach in her dealings with people. And she does represent her country and is therefore entitled to respect as a figurehead in just the same way as a national flag is.

World peace romanticism AND blind adoration for the establishment figure, somewhat illogical I have to say.

Not adoration Jasmine J, respect. There is a difference you know.

It doesn’t detract from the point – you can’t on the one hand be a proponent of equality and mutual respect whilst deeming a figurehead for (among other things) sexual and religious discrimination ‘beyond reproach and worthy of respect’.
As I said, it’s illogical (you know).

quote:

Originally posted by squiggle:
Where did you pick up from my threads any hint of totalitarianism? Very far from my way of thinking and of course dissent is a necessary part of any society. That does not preclude a belief in a respect for one's fellow human beings and a goal of working towards all men and women having a right to reach their full potential without being bullied or subjugated. Where this differs from your way of thinking I have no idea.

From here (p19):

"You make a gigantic leap from a society where injustice is inherent and regard that as the status quo and therefore a culture. [...] Where there is injustice you will always have a change to come. That is not a true culture that is, maybe, a false sense of beliefs which is posing as a believable culture. There is a vast difference between that and a society where people believe in their values and all are agreed."

To get people to believe in their values where all are agreed, I think you'd need to operate a totalitarian state. Values are instilled. To get a complete takeup of cultural values, the state would have to practically brain-wash people. Compare this with our current structure where individuals have their own interests and aspirations, individuals form interest groups, and the state arbitrates between the interests of those groups using a core set of cultural values. Individuals are products of the culture they're born into but they're also products of their DNA and the environment. They will never all believe in the same things and agree on them because human nature ultimately leads away from that.

Your earlier comment to Baz "At least Baz with our way of thinking there is hope, with Daniel J's way of thinking the future seems very bleak." implied that you share Baz's flawed idealism. I've shown the flaws there already. You probably don't actually believe in Baz's fluffeh idealism in reality: that if everyone was respectful and tolerant of each other at individual and government level then we'd all be happier. It's just fluff, isn't it? It takes no account of competing interests and scare resources. It won't work and probably shouldn't work.

quote:

Originally posted by JasmineJ:


It doesn’t detract from the point – you can’t on the one hand be a proponent of equality and mutual respect whilst deeming a figurehead for (among other things) sexual and religious discrimination ‘beyond reproach and worthy of respect’.
As I said, it’s illogical (you know).

You are seeing the Queen as a figurehead for those things. I am merely according the Queen of my country the respect which she deserves.

[/QUOTE]
To get people to believe in their values where all are agreed, I think you'd need to operate a totalitarian state.

That may be your view, it is not mine.

I have given up looking through the dictionary at all the meanings of these big words now

I think the Queen is great

quote:

Originally posted by Bovrilking:
I have given up looking through the dictionary at all the meanings of these big words now

I think the Queen is great

So do I Bov but dare we say so?

quote:

Originally posted by squiggle:

quote:

Originally posted by Bovrilking:
I have given up looking through the dictionary at all the meanings of these big words now

I think the Queen is great

So do I Bov but dare we say so?

We dare say what we want. I will repeat that she is mostly harmless and a convenient target for those who know nothing of, the real naughty people, high level tax evasion, and corruption.

quote:

Originally posted by squiggle:
To get people to believe in their values where all are agreed, I think you'd need to operate a totalitarian state.

That may be your view, it is not mine.

Has it ever happened, anywhere in the world? Even in overwhelmingly religious countries? No. Why? Because human nature dictates against it. Can you say otherwise and explain how it could conceivably happen?

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by squiggle:
To get people to believe in their values where all are agreed, I think you'd need to operate a totalitarian state.

That may be your view, it is not mine.

Has it ever happened, anywhere in the world? Even in overwhelmingly religious countries? No. Why? Because human nature dictates against it. Can you say otherwise and explain how it could conceivably happen?

Dear Daniel J, I think we've done this one to death now, don't you?