I dont think Ben Kinsella was a racist attack i think they would have killed anybody of any colour. Quite a few of the knife crimes are black on black attacks.

quote:

Originally posted by The Devil In Diamante:
..did anyone see GMTV this Morning? Apparently Nick Griffin has made a statement about the brutal death of Anthony Walker stating that is WAS NOT a racist attack, he made the film from the place where Anthony was killed.....

Anthonys Sister said that if Anthony was white he would still be alive Today, which I firmly believe.

...this got me thinking about the story of Ben Kinsella that's been in the papers this week...not once has the 'R' word been mentioned over this brutal stabbing, even though the perpetrators were black.....

What do you think about this?...I believe Anthonys Sister is right, it WAS a racist attack, however, I also believe that Ben Kinsella may still be alive Today if he was Black...

Now, this thread isn't to start arguments, I was just wondering if anybody thinks the same?

Hmmmm I do agree with you there. There are people who believe that black on white crime, is not racist and cannot be racist. But white on black crime is and should be treated as such

That is all.

*runs*

quote:

Originally posted by longcat:
I dont think Ben Kinsella was a racist attack i think they would have killed anybody of any colour. Quite a few of the knife crimes are black on black attacks.

Yes, there is that, though I was wondering why the Media have never mentioned the 'R' word in the Ben Kisella Murder...

....personally I don't care what colour, creed, religion, size, shape, sexuality or sex a person is, we're all people, however, I do believe that the way racism is reported in these cases is mostly one way!

quote:

Originally posted by The Devil In Diamante:

quote:

Originally posted by longcat:
I dont think Ben Kinsella was a racist attack i think they would have killed anybody of any colour. Quite a few of the knife crimes are black on black attacks.

Yes, there is that, though I was wondering why the Media have never mentioned the 'R' word in the Ben Kisella Murder...

....personally I don't care what colour, creed, religion, size, shape, sexuality or sex a person is, we're all people, however, I do believe that the way racism is reported in these cases is mostly one way!

I kind of understand what your saying. People seem to think black people cannot be racist towards white people or that it isnt racism. But i still say Bens case was not a racist attack so thats probably why it hasn't been mentioned.

Nick Griffin should **** off back where he came from.

quote:

Originally posted by longcat:

quote:

Originally posted by The Devil In Diamante:

quote:

Originally posted by longcat:
I dont think Ben Kinsella was a racist attack i think they would have killed anybody of any colour. Quite a few of the knife crimes are black on black attacks.

Yes, there is that, though I was wondering why the Media have never mentioned the 'R' word in the Ben Kisella Murder...

....personally I don't care what colour, creed, religion, size, shape, sexuality or sex a person is, we're all people, however, I do believe that the way racism is reported in these cases is mostly one way!

I kind of understand what your saying. People seem to think black people cannot be racist towards white people or that it isnt racism. But i still say Bens case was not a racist attack so thats probably why it hasn't been mentioned.

That's exactly what I'm trying to say! Even if Bens attack wasn't racist, if it was the other way round the 'R' word would be the main headliner!!

Either way, it is so sad that people have to comit such brutal crimes, not only taking a life but also destroying the lives of the Victims Families and also their own Families...do people not realise how precious life is!!! So sad

quote:

Originally posted by Raggy♥Doll:
Nick Griffin should **** off back where he came from.

I agree 100%....evil Man!

quote:

Originally posted by Raggy♥Doll:
Nick Griffin should **** off back where he came from.

his rock is still where he left it

Nick Griffins an odious bastard.

regarding the article not the person.....when are we going to start seeing people as people not as a colour? I personally am sick of all of this racist crap. Grow up people we live in a multicultural society & can't afford to throw the racist word/comment around every 5 seconds.

quote:

Originally posted by Koala Brother:
regarding the article not the person.....when are we going to start seeing people as people not as a colour? I personally am sick of all of this racist crap. Grow up people we live in a multicultural society & can't afford to throw the racist word/comment around every 5 seconds.

I agree completely! As I said in an earlier post, I don't care what colour, religion, size, sexuality etc...a person is! We are all people with thoughts and feelings, family & friends....such a sad state of affairs don't you think!

quote:

Originally posted by Liverpoollass:

quote:

Originally posted by The Devil In Diamante:
..did anyone see GMTV this Morning? Apparently Nick Griffin has made a statement about the brutal death of Anthony Walker stating that is WAS NOT a racist attack, he made the film from the place where Anthony was killed.....

Anthonys Sister said that if Anthony was white he would still be alive Today, which I firmly believe.

...this got me thinking about the story of Ben Kinsella that's been in the papers this week...not once has the 'R' word been mentioned over this brutal stabbing, even though the perpetrators were black.....

What do you think about this?...I believe Anthonys Sister is right, it WAS a racist attack, however, I also believe that Ben Kinsella may still be alive Today if he was Black...

Now, this thread isn't to start arguments, I was just wondering if anybody thinks the same?

Hmmmm I do agree with you there. There are people who believe that black on white crime, is not racist and cannot be racist. But white on black crime is and should be treated as such

That is all.

*runs*

Rubbish. If a black person commits a crime against a white person purely on the basis of them being 'white' - it would, and should be treated as a racially motivated crime. However, most of the 'black-on-black' crimes indicate their 'indiscriminate' characteristic on a large scale - hence 'Trident'.

On the other hand, 'white' on black crime has shown an 'historical' trend of being racially motivated i.e. chants of racist abuse during the criminal act. But to reiterate, if a crime is committed purely on the basis of 'colour' it's a racist crime - NOT because the people involved are of a different colour.

........is an arse.

quote:

Originally posted by The Devil In Diamante:

quote:

Originally posted by Koala Brother:
regarding the article not the person.....when are we going to start seeing people as people not as a colour? I personally am sick of all of this racist crap. Grow up people we live in a multicultural society & can't afford to throw the racist word/comment around every 5 seconds.

I agree completely! As I said in an earlier post, I don't care what colour, religion, size, sexuality etc...a person is! We are all people with thoughts and feelings, family & friends....such a sad state of affairs don't you think!

definately. I was brought up in a country that was made up of people from other countries so I really got it good as I got to explore so many other cultures. I hadn't heard the word racism really used a lot until we moved here. I myself have had several racial attacks made against my family even though we are (& I hate saying this) white, english with an accent, speaking people. And it was other of the same sort that were doing this. Racism was never a word used when I was growing up because people were people & like you said have different religions, colours etc.

If I have offended anyone with my inept way of trying to describe people please forgive me now. I feel so naive when discussing this because I'm never sure how to explain.

I wish they would go back under their rocks, this party has caused so much trouble in my personal life it's terrible. They say you should never talk about politics but when someone's views are so different to your own it's very hard to ignore it.

Poor Ben Kinsella was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
The Lawrence murderers went out with the specific intention of attacking black people, as I recall.

Anthony Walker was murdered by thugs who shouted racial abuse, before attacking him.

Ben Kinsella was murdered by thugs who thought they had been 'disrespected' by some of Ben's friends, during a spat in a pub.

Ben could easily have been a black sixteen year old and suffered the same fate.

Nick Griffin is doing this to cause division, offence, and publicity for himself, and his hateful views.

quote:

Originally posted by Koala Brother:
regarding the article not the person.....when are we going to start seeing people as people not as a colour? I personally am sick of all of this racist crap. Grow up people we live in a multicultural society & can't afford to throw the racist word/comment around every 5 seconds.

Totally agree

quote:

Originally posted by Senora Reyes:
Nick Griffin is doing this to cause division, offence, and publicity for himself, and his hateful views.

He really is an odious little Man isn't he! He is going to take 'race relations' back to the dark ages if he has his way!!! I am so disappointed in the Burnley Constituents for voting this pillock in!!

quote:

Originally posted by Koala Brother:

quote:

Originally posted by The Devil In Diamante:

quote:

Originally posted by Koala Brother:
regarding the article not the person.....when are we going to start seeing people as people not as a colour? I personally am sick of all of this racist crap. Grow up people we live in a multicultural society & can't afford to throw the racist word/comment around every 5 seconds.

I agree completely! As I said in an earlier post, I don't care what colour, religion, size, sexuality etc...a person is! We are all people with thoughts and feelings, family & friends....such a sad state of affairs don't you think!

definately. I was brought up in a country that was made up of people from other countries so I really got it good as I got to explore so many other cultures. I hadn't heard the word racism really used a lot until we moved here. I myself have had several racial attacks made against my family even though we are (& I hate saying this) white, english with an accent, speaking people. And it was other of the same sort that were doing this. Racism was never a word used when I was growing up because people were people & like you said have different religions, colours etc.

If I have offended anyone with my inept way of trying to describe people please forgive me now. I feel so naive when discussing this because I'm never sure how to explain.

Well said!

I doubt very much that the Kinsella murder was racially motivated from the little I know about it. It sounds like he did what I would do where I live: not run away if a group was chasing another group on the assumption that if I wasn't involved then I wouldn't be attacked.

quote:

Originally posted by Blizzie:
Anthony Walker was murdered by thugs who shouted racial abuse, before attacking him.

Ben Kinsella was murdered by thugs who thought they had been 'disrespected' by some of Ben's friends, during a spat in a pub.

Ben could easily have been a black sixteen year old and suffered the same fate.

Spot on.

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:
Poor Ben Kinsella was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
The Lawrence murderers went out with the specific intention of attacking black people, as I recall.

They attacked others as well....previously to the Lawrence murder a couple of them had stabbed a white kid, just missing his heart.

quote:

Originally posted by Koala Brother:
regarding the article not the person.....when are we going to start seeing people as people not as a colour? I personally am sick of all of this racist crap. Grow up people we live in a multicultural society & can't afford to throw the racist word/comment around every 5 seconds.

But if a minority group is systematically discriminated against for their colour/ethnicity then racism is what it is. Wishing it away doesn't help. Inevitably, some people will get a victim mentality, cry racism first, and then consider the facts later but that doesn't change what happens to other people who are actually discriminated against.

The reason Nick Griffin was so angry at the egg thrower was that they hadn't seperated the whites first!


Don't blame me, it was on LBC this morning!

quote:

Originally posted by kittyuk:
The reason Nick Griffin was so angry at the egg thrower was that they hadn't seperated the whites first!


Don't blame me, it was on LBC this morning!

Ah ha!.. bastards.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Koala Brother:
regarding the article not the person.....when are we going to start seeing people as people not as a colour? I personally am sick of all of this racist crap. Grow up people we live in a multicultural society & can't afford to throw the racist word/comment around every 5 seconds.

But if a minority group is systematically discriminated against for their colour/ethnicity then racism is what it is. Wishing it away doesn't help. Inevitably, some people will get a victim mentality, cry racism first, and then consider the facts later but that doesn't change what happens to other people who are actually discriminated against.

I agree with you except for the wishing it away bit (I live in the real world ) . As I said in another post where I live now we have been racially discriminated against even though we are white, english (with an accent) speaking living in an all white area. I mean things are getting so bad now that if you move into our area with say a Mancurian (sp?) accent - God help ya.

quote:

Originally posted by Lagerfiend:
if it had been a gang of white kids who had killed a black kid, racism would have been bought into it. As it is racism has not been mentioned.

Warning: what I'm going to write now is probably not going to be popular.

Black on white racism is not as 'bad' as white black racism. Why? Because while negative discrimination based on prejudice is a bad thing, white on black racism is systematic and that makes it a power relations thing too, which is doubly bad.

Prejudice is natural and discrimination is an unfortunate effect of that. That's the same in all directions. Yet systematic discrimination amongst the majority group holds minority groups down, causing systematic and potentially dangerous injustice, and that's why it merits special attention. Not because racism itself is especially bad out of fat-ism, ginger-ism, and various other -isms.

quote:

Originally posted by Koala Brother:
I mean things are getting so bad now that if you move into our area with say a Mancurian (sp?) accent - God help ya.

As a former liverpudlian, I'm struggling to see the issue here.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Lagerfiend:
if it had been a gang of white kids who had killed a black kid, racism would have been bought into it. As it is racism has not been mentioned.

Warning: what I'm going to write now is probably not going to be popular.

Black on white racism is not as 'bad' as white black racism. Why? Because while negative discrimination based on prejudice is a bad thing, white on black racism is systematic and that makes it a power relations thing too, which is doubly bad.

Prejudice is natural and discrimination is an unfortunate effect of that. That's the same in all directions. Yet systematic discrimination amongst the majority group holds minority groups down, causing systematic and potentially dangerous injustice, and that's why it merits special attention. Not because racism itself is especially bad out of fat-ism, ginger-ism, and various other -isms.

It probably feels the same if you are the one on the end of it though,.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
Warning: what I'm going to write now is probably not going to be popular.

Black on white racism is not as 'bad' as white black racism.

While you may have valid and understandable reasons for making that statement, it is just the kind of Grauniad reading, guilty white liberal speak that is alienating a lot of the English urban white working class and making them feel that the only people who understand their concerns are the lunatics of the BNP.

Now I don't know what it feels like to be a person from an ethnic minority in this country and be discriminated against but I can certainly tell you how it feels to be a white person who has been on the receiving end of 6 years of unwarranted violence, intimidation and mental torture at the hands of a family who play the race card every single time they are questioned about their criminal behaviour and how that makes me feel.

Thanks for the warning though

quote:

Originally posted by FGG Aka Crocodile Rock:
It probably feels the same if you are the one on the end of it though,.

As it probably does if you're fat and randoms throw abuse at you because of it. We don't have incitement to fatty hatred laws though. At least not yet.

I've been subject to racial discrimination, and sometimes racial abuse, but my life chances are not significantly inhibited as a result.

On that basis, I'm lucky. Not so lucky in terms of sexuality and the discrimination, potential violence, and the related rest of it, though but there ya go.

quote:

Originally posted by Veggieburger:
Now I don't know what it feels like to be a person from an ethnic minority in this country and be discriminated against but I can certainly tell you how it feels to be a white person who has been on the receiving end of 6 years of unwarranted violence, intimidation and mental torture at the hands of a family who play the race card every single time they are questioned about their criminal behaviour and how that makes me feel.

The same race laws apply to you, you know. I'm trying to explain why I think they're there, not say that black-on-white racism doesn't matter at all.

Also, I'm not feeling guilty as a white, Guardian-reading, liberal or, indeed, as a member of the majority ethnic group in the UK. I'm just applying an 'academic' view to it.

Lots of people complain about PC-Gone-Mad and it does seem like that about race (which really means ethnicity in people's minds) laws. There's something qualitatively different about a white-on-black insult and, say, a Scottish-on-English one, or even a Liverpudlian-on-Manchunian one. I think it's worth looking at why that is ... if it is ... and trying to justify why we have race laws but not regional differences laws.

quote:

Originally posted by Veggieburger:
it is just the kind of Grauniad reading, guilty white liberal speak that is alienating a lot of the English urban white working class and making them feel that the only people who understand their concerns are the lunatics of the BNP.

The chances of us achieving true hegemonic power or influence seems remote. I suspect that the alienated urban white working class are getting their info elsewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:

quote:

Originally posted by Veggieburger:
it is just the kind of Grauniad reading, guilty white liberal speak that is alienating a lot of the English urban white working class and making them feel that the only people who understand their concerns are the lunatics of the BNP.

The chances of us achieving true hegemonic power or influence seems remote. I suspect that the alienated urban white working class are getting their info elsewhere.

yeah I get what you're saying Joe The Grauniad would not be the rag of choice amongst that particular demographic.
The point I was trying to make really to Daniel (and probably not making very well) was just that that kind of statement is exactly what the alienated urban white working class in England are having quoted at them by the likes of the BNP as 'evidence' that the system is against them.
People who feel alienated will just hear the 'headline' quote and not actually see the reasoning behind the statement - which may be quite sound.
Someone posted a link in the TT to a story in the Daily Mail (where else ) about traveller communities receiving preferential treatment in healthcare.
There may be good reasons why some of these policy changes are being implemented but of course what the dissaffected will see is that someone is getting preferential treatment because they are non white.
I really don't know what the answer is btw but we urgently need to have some sort of debate on all these things before the BNP become unstoppable and we all suffer

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
The same race laws apply to you, you know. I'm trying to explain why I think they're there, not say that black-on-white racism doesn't matter at all.

Also, I'm not feeling guilty as a white, Guardian-reading, liberal or, indeed, as a member of the majority ethnic group in the UK. I'm just applying an 'academic' view to it.

Lots of people complain about PC-Gone-Mad and it does seem like that about race (which really means ethnicity in people's minds) laws. There's something qualitatively different about a white-on-black insult and, say, a Scottish-on-English one, or even a Liverpudlian-on-Manchunian one. I think it's worth looking at why that is ... if it is ... and trying to justify why we have race laws but not regional differences laws.

yes I would agree that we need to take a look at how we define discrimination but of course we would never end up with a definition that would satisfy everyone.
As for the same race laws applying to me - yes in theory you are right but in practice it is very different I can assure you.

quote:

Originally posted by Veggieburger:
As for the same race laws applying to me - yes in theory you are right but in practice it is very different I can assure you.

Well, there have been definite instances recently where race laws have been applied to black-on white and brown-on-white racism. The police are now obliged to investigate incidents as racist if someone involved feels that they've been the victim of racism. That's the result of the Stephen Lawrence inquiry.

One of my favourite moments on here in recent days had to be when a poster wrote along the lines of, "They come across here, filling up schools, filling up hospitals, getting free phones and cars, shagging our women, taking our jobs....... I don't support the BNP!"
I'm sorry pet! You do!