....Add to that no hair dye,no waxing/plucking ,not in the same league as what you mention but interfering with nature all the same, in fact the list is endless.

Exactly, Lee. Let's not interfere with nature and have no makeup, no electricity (to power our hair-straighteners) and no incubators (powered by 'interfering' electricity) to save premature babies either.
Might as well go back to living in caves. Everything humankind has done since they climbed down from the trees has been an interference with nature. Is Videostar (who made the original comment) also against all western agriculture that feeds us as well, because it's against the natural order of things?

I think those who believe they are another gender to what they were born have a mental disorder....if those of you accept that mental disorder and say it's natural to Nadia then if you continue that theme....some of those who hear voices (or think they hear voices)  now to me they are mentaly ill,  but to those of you who accept transgender peoples attitudes someone who thinks they hear voices in their head must be accepted as normal and we should believe that theres nothing wrong in it.


It's the same type of issue, mental disorder.

Exactly Deman,each and every one of us * interfere with nature* every day in one way or another and we're darn well glad we do.

I like Nadia and think she's very pretty and if she's have been born a woman I'd still stay she looked like a trucker with tits in that horrendous dress....

It sounds like you're confusing gender dysmorphia with schizophrenia. I'd suggest you go away and learn a bit more about both before you lump them in together.

'Mental disorders' can be presented in many forms. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you are saying is that if people accept anyone with a wish to change gender as someone who does not have a mental disorder, then the same people must automatically assume that those who hear 'voices' in their head mustn't have a mental disorder also?

Anything else you think we'd be likely to accept as the norm while you're there?

Yeah, those folk whose genes or chromosomes or whatever naff up are just mental innit.  Down Syndrome, doesn't exist, they just need to get a grip and see a shrink.

Well I for one am grateful for the disposable razor. Can you imagine the abundance of hair on this planet if it were never invented? You'd be fighting through an army of pubes at the tills at Tescos. And forget trying to get into the post office on Pension day

 I wouldn't give it one.But plenty of other (paying) punters would.How much for a happy ending Nads?.£50 for the Full Monty honey?.

As humans, that's what we do. But it's only OK with some people as long as it fits into their own bigoted view.
I HATE that censorious crap! First and foremost, I'm a humanist and believe everyone should have the right to live their life in the way that makes them happiest. We all have one life to live, why live it in denial? It's no skin off my nose what they do, so why should I care?
But according to some in this thread, that makes me an 'extreme left winger'  who wants to make all their kids 'extreme left wingers' too.

Thing is nature can often get it very wrong,I'd say the closed mindset of some is itself testament to that.

 Lee.Are you the same C4 FM who i remember .Your house burned down and you live in ROI?.
You had a 'pram' thread?.

Consider yourself well smooched for that like

Bloody well said.

I can't in all conscience stand by when some people are so traumatised by their brains/hearts/souls being in such conflict with their bodies that they'd rather die than exist?  I know that's the story for a lot of TS people.  Feck that.  Really...feck it.  Let people be happy, let people live.

I also do genuinely believe in gender dysmorphia...it's perfectly rational to me that someone's X's and Y's might get messed up...genes/chromosomes/DNA (I am ill educated on TS issues) mess up all the frickin' time.

Yup, if we all thought that way, we'd all still be living in caves and ostracising the one bright soul in our midst who'd thought of the wheel, because it was 'against nature'.

Hi Goury ,yes it's me how are you?....It was the exterior of my house that was burnt and I live in N Ireland but you weren't too far wrong,the pram is in storage but if things get much worse here I'll be forced to get it out.

I honestly cannot "get" the mindset of anyone who would rather folks were suicidal than have an operation to make themselves feel "right"...or more right, no doubt they have a lot of trauma to work through.

Please, FFS just let people be happy, there's too much misery in this world, why let wonky rules dictate who is allowed to be happy or content.

I know a lad who was born with both genitalia, lucky for him he was born in an era where doctors would do a hormone and other tests to see what was more dominant so he was made a boy, if it was left to the likes of Vid should he have been left both?....

Smooching you back, Leccs (and not a pathetic John James smooch either)  

It just irritates me that people who are never going to be affected by it still take massive affront to other people admitting they can't live in the body they were born with.
It doesn't affect me personally, but of course I can empathise - what would it FEEL like to know the image in the mirror is so wrong? It would be awful, I couldn't live like that.
Judgmental souls should put themselves in that person's shoes. Or if they can't, they should consider whether someone else's life is any of their business anyway, before they get all puffed up about it being 'against nature'.

 I'm very well thanks Lee.Hope you are too?.I'm not going senile after all then!.
Funny,the things you remember after all this time isn't it?.
I didn't post much with you.But i rememeber thinking(from your posts), how devasted you were at the events that had occured.
Hope it all sorted itself out.

Wouldn't it be nice if there was the Worzel Gummidge option of putting on whatever head suited you for that day, or a Mr.Ben stylee life where you could be whatever you wanted just by going to a shop. One day a greengrocer, the next flying a 747 over the Atlantic.

I am now pondering whether Jimmy Krankie, Lily Savage, Dame Edna Everage or any man who plays Widow Twanky in Christmas panto has a mental disorder. Oh pop Dustin Hoffman and Robin Williams into that mix too for their roles as Tootsie and Mrs.Doubtfire.

Woooo!

Sheeesh..l I watched a programme about that subject a few years ago. It was a boy who had minimal genitalia so the doctors decided to turn him into a girl. Horror story - he knew he was a boy from infancy but had to live with being dressed up as a girl and brought up like one. It caused terrible heartache, and in the end i think he got surgery to make him a 'real' boy. But it wrecked his childhood and teenage years.

The story was awful - he was forced to wear frilly dresses and was given dolls, even though all he wanted was jeans and toy cars.
Obviously, they should have left him ambiguous and not forced him into one gender or the other until he was old enough to tell them which applied.

Against nature? What those narrow-minded doctors of the time did definitely was.

I'm a good smoocher

Heehehehhe, I missed this! Karma, get yurr hairy self away!
What really WOULD happen if all we ladies suddenly decided to ditch the Immac and be as hairy as nature made us, eh?
Cause a right riot among the 'it's not natural' brigade.

And I suggest you go away and learn some manners instead of attacking someone with different views to yours.


It's all mental illness what ever type it is.

I don't think anyone was attacking you as a person, just attacking an opinion you hold.

Howay Vids, me and you have battled for years without point scoring, you know you can do it, I know you can. I agree with you (generously) 3% of the time...why is it that we don't fall out?  Because we both know the difference between an opinion and an insult (BTW you are in your 97% zone of being wrong again on this issue )

Yep, you told me to go away and get some 'manners' the last time I disagreed with you.
 I didn't 'attack' you, I disagreed with you, which is what a forum is all about, unless you expect to be able to post whatever you like without contradiction. To quote your original post, I  was just 'being honest'.
I'd suggest you take your own advice - my manners are fine, and at least I was brought up to respect the person for who they are, rather than my own narrow view of them.

And I think my manners are fine, but I can tell the difference between healthy debate and a sly insult..."go away and learn more a bit more about it before you lump in together"  to me that was rude.



Your all but saying that those who agree with your opinion are intelligent and well read up on the subject and those who GOD FORBID disagree with you are thickos,  im fed up with attacks from the PC brigade just because I respectfully disagree with you.

Aren't the opinions we hold a part of who we are as people?   it seems to me that some peoples opinions must be the only ones or else.

Aye, aye apart from the bit where I said (and I quote) I am ill educated on TS issues.



Seriously Grumpy, even leaving all moral issues aside...leaving out your conscience, your political leanings, your rhetoric, your beliefs...it doesn't affect you one way or the other so why the heck do you feel so strongly about it?

I'm playing Devil's Advocate here....coz I DO believe the condition exists...but still...even if it didn't HOW on earth does it affect you and why should you care?

Nadia is an annoyance..no matter what she is.

Who are this 'PC brigade'? Do I get a badge for being a member? As far as I can see, I haven't allied myself to any 'brigade' and yet you're trying to imply you're being ganged up on when there's just me and you.

There were no 'sly insults'. If you know me you'd know I'd say it straight out with no need to be 'sly' about it. You said hearing voices in the head and gender dysmorphia were connected. They are not. Schizophrenia and gender dysmorphia are in no way related. I merely suugested you do some research to confirm that.

If anyone's being rude, it's you. but I'll forgive that. Ignorant people often are.

Leccy, your right it doesn't affect me at all, the only strong opinions I have on this subject is that it's one in many issues that seems to be one way traffic in public opinions these days, no one seems to be allowed to argue that opinion without being shouted down as some kind of evil monster....thats where my passion is,  being told I must think a certain way.


On DS the other day this subject popped up and with total respect and with no harm meant I posted my opinion....a reply I got from someone suggested that I must hate black people too and that I must have a sign in my window saying "no blacks allowed"    now with nasty attacks like that I do get a little pissed off.

LOL well thankyou for showing me such charity.



Oh BTW Demantoid I have never attacked you, just defended myself from your insults.

Scary 3% agreement coming up ...YES the opinions you hold are a part of you as a person to an extent, however, on the internet, as far as beliefs go...I think that opinions are fair game.  Your sexuality/race/gender/physical ability/etc are out of your control but your socio-political leanings aren't.  Your choice and yours alone. Stand by them...

You can't judge folk for what they have no control over but you can judge folks concious decisions.

(I just abused the comma there didn't I?)

No-one has shouted you down or called you an evil monster. Please show me the posts where anyone has done so. All we have done is post views that differ to yours.

Did you expect no-one to contradict you?

Well Leccy, it looks like a certain person has judged me on here.

No not at all, I love debate, just not insults in which you have posted another one in your last post to me.