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Originally Posted by Blizz'ard:
Originally Posted by ~ Babette ~:

When did the transition from real RnB take place PeterCat? I never saw it happen but all of a sudden they had got away with it.  Who did it?  RnB was British and then it became American crap...



RnB, as in Rhythm and Blues?

I believe it was American crap first!
American it may have been but crap it was not.  Rhythm and blues started with Black American music that originated in the 1940s or even earlier.  In America it was only produced for Black people to enjoy. Those recording were imported to the UK and formed the source for a generation of British Blues rockers. Much of the great blues rock legacy of the 60s and beyond was produced by musicians who drew their inspiration from those American sources.  To me this was the original RnB and I have albums that are called RnB featuring this music.
My principal beef with the reclassification of the RnB label is that what we have ended up with is not what it was.  What it is now may be popular with many who have few musical skills or appreciation of those skills, but it isn't what it should be.  In evolving the name to apply to something different it has diluted the roots and origins of the music to a point that it is almost homeopathic.  It has been diluted so often that not a molecule of the original exists. 
~ Babette ~
Originally Posted by ~ Babette ~:
My principal beef with the reclassification of the RnB label is that what we have ended up with is not what it was.  What it is now may be popular with many who have few musical skills or appreciation of those skills, but it isn't what it should be.  In evolving the name to apply to something different it has diluted the roots and origins of the music to a point that it is almost homeopathic.  It has been diluted so often that not a molecule of the original exists. 
Karma_
Originally Posted by ~ Babette ~:
American it may have been but crap it was not.  Rhythm and blues started with Black American music that originated in the 1940s or even earlier.  In America it was only produced for Black people to enjoy. Those recording were imported to the UK and formed the source for a generation of British Blues rockers. Much of the great blues rock legacy of the 60s and beyond was produced by musicians who drew their inspiration from those American sources.  To me this was the original RnB and I have albums that are called RnB featuring this music.
My principal beef with the reclassification of the RnB label is that what we have ended up with is not what it was.  What it is now may be popular with many who have few musical skills or appreciation of those skills, but it isn't what it should be.  In evolving the name to apply to something different it has diluted the roots and origins of the music to a point that it is almost homeopathic.  It has been diluted so often that not a molecule of the original exists. 
I understand it's origins and that was my point! 

Oh, and I don't think it's 'crap', but that was your word for it.
I should have used quotation marks. 

You can't claim it was British, just because it was embraced by British artists and you happened to be around at the same time, surely? 

Yes, it has evolved, just as all music does, and that's one of the reasons I don't find myself able to subscribe to certain genres and dismiss others. It's all music, to me, and I either enjoy it, or I don't.
Blizz'ard
As far as I recall, sometime in the early 90s commercial soul took on a rap image and influence and was rebranded as R&B.  In the interim there was a type of transitional hip hop flavoured music marketed as "New Jack Swing" which would be marketed as soul in the 80s and R&B now.

IMO, R&B brand has little to do with the musical style of the artists or the music but just seems to have been a way to imply more integrity to a product that had become a bit too smooth and commercial for its own good and was too associated with dancing around hand bags.  Thus, IMO, 'soul' music became 'R&B' to appropriate the perceived street cool of hip hop while mixing the commercialism of big label soul. 

All in my opinion of course!
Carnelian
Originally Posted by PeterCat:
.

Stock, Aitken & Waterman and all their foul descendants (especially the Cowell creature).

Ooh PC. I was just about to give them a dishonourable mention.
I can listen to just about any sort of music - even if only for a few minutes - but I loathe, loathe, loathe opera.
It's not the music I hate it's the shouting/screeching that winds me up. The music by itself is ok, some of it is really nice.
But not Wagner obviously. Wagner I truly loathe
FM
Originally Posted by Carnelian:
As far as I recall, sometime in the early 90s commercial soul took on a rap image and influence and was rebranded as R&B.  In the interim there was a type of transitional hip hop flavoured music marketed as "New Jack Swing" which would be marketed as soul in the 80s and R&B now.

IMO, R&B brand has little to do with the musical style of the artists or the music but just seems to have been a way to imply more integrity to a product that had become a bit too smooth and commercial for its own good and was too associated with dancing around hand bags.  Thus, IMO, 'soul' music became 'R&B' to appropriate the perceived street cool of hip hop while mixing the commercialism of big label soul. 

All in my opinion of course!
I think you make some good points.

Although hiphop inspired artists such as Johnny Gill, Tony! Toni! Tone, Mary J. Blige, Big Daddy Kane and others were heralded as a soul nouveau in the late 80's/early 90's; the mainstream still had room for more traditional balladeers such as Freddie Jackson and Anita Baker - and new artists such as Will Downing, who arrived with a Jazz fused approach. 

From the mid-90's onwards, what we now refer to as RnB dominated the mainstream. Of course, many artists fell into sub genres such as nu-soul - and other phrases like organic appeared within the urban music dictionary. With the arrival of the new Millennium artists such as Angie Stone and Jill Scott were gaining critical and commercial recognition - producing music that appealed to a broader, perhaps even adult orientated market (maybe those pre-hiphop days balladeer fans) - with little in the way of rapping or looped drum beats.

Thank goodness for the soul underground and independent labels that continue to release music regardless of mainstream trends and unit shifting concerns or restraints.
Cold Sweat
I've got to post it. When my granddaughter was 4 years old a friend of mine gave me a doll for her which had a tape recorder in the back of her. The thing struck me as a Chucky in the first place, but when I got it my daughter and I put in an Eminem tape and the doll was singing very bad language songs. I know it's really childish, but it was very funny. Needless to say, my granddaughter never got to hear it.
cologne 1
Originally Posted by Carnelian:
I'm only pulling your leg, Prom,

I have loads of time for goth music but if I take The Sisters of Mercy "First and Last and Always" album then to my mind that's quite a boring album where most of the songs sound the same. 

Goth in the mid 1980s really lacked the innovation it had in the early 80s. The Sisters of Mercy were quite clichÃĐd lyrically resorting to camp repetition of horror movie imagery and musically bland production - IMO of course.

Goth in the 1990s and 2000s became another MTV clichÃĐ much like hair metal. Marilyn Mansun was pathetic.

I used to think I knew what goth was having been in a goth band myself but now when people talk about it I wonder if I ever did. The Sisters and Bauhaus were goth to me. The Cure? Robert Smith with spikey hair and a bit of a makeup doesn't make them a goth band in my eyes yet that's how they seem to have been remembered. There really weren't very many goth bands at all. Thinking back on it now I'm surprised it merits its own genre.
Prometheus
Originally Posted by Leccy Endellion:
Cologne, haha

There's a lot of C&W hate in here, I love a bit of Dolly or Loretta....oooh and Patsy. Just the thing for a spotify sing sesh.  And Johnny Cash, I love him.

When there was a country&western channel on the tele in the mid 90's the logo was cnt and all the letters were really close together. I thought it was c**t tv for ages
Karma_

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