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Prometheus
I watched a film last night called Zodiac. It was about a serial killer from the late 60s/70s. He killed less than a dozen people but was the subject of endless press coverage back then and had a movie made about who he may or may not have been very recently.

Moat. Killed a few people. A nation shocked. Jack The Ripper, Myra Hindley... insert the name of any serial killer you care to mention and the whole world is shocked.

Yet we talk about mass murder in terms that are almost passive. World War I and 2. That's the 'acceptable' face of murder. You have a uniform and a gun and the express permission of some cowardly fat f*ck in government to kill as many people as you can possibly manage in the name of gaining a bit of land or forcing your religious beliefs on others or just because they pissed you off and you wanted to get even.

Murder. If we're so shocked at a few people getting killed by some loon here and there while our governments and others kill hundreds of thousands 'just because' do we even know what the word f*cking means?
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SS spongebob squarepantsMember
i suppose it boils down to you join the armed forces  in this day and age you're going to have to kill or be killed.........you know what you're signing up for........whereas someone walking down the street getting shot by derek bird is a different kettle of fish.......or a child being abused by someone like hindley/west etc then murdered is also shocking...

that said....many innocent people lose their lives in war too.........

it's just a shit world........
SS
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FM Former Member
Originally Posted by spongebob squarepants:
i suppose it boils down to you join the armed forces  in this day and age you're going to have to kill or be killed.........you know what you're signing up for........whereas someone walking down the street getting shot by derek bird is a different kettle of fish.......or a child being abused by someone like hindley/west etc then murdered is also shocking...

that said....many innocent people lose their lives in war too.........

it's just a shit world........
      Sorry but I have nothing more to say than that. It's been quite a shit week for me
FM
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Karma_Karma_Member
Originally Posted by spongebob squarepants:
i suppose it boils down to you join the armed forces  in this day and age you're going to have to kill or be killed.........you know what you're signing up for........whereas someone walking down the street getting shot by derek bird is a different kettle of fish.......or a child being abused by someone like hindley/west etc then murdered is also shocking...

that said....many innocent people lose their lives in war too.........

it's just a shit world........
Wot Spongey said ^^^^
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PrometheusPrometheusMember
I knew everyone would miss the point. Blair and Bush are war criminals. How many people did they kill in their search for imaginary WMD? But that's okay it's 'our boys' against powerless civilians or an 'army' of enraged rebels. Murder is f*cking murder. End.

Some poor soul will get murdered next week and it will be in the press. You can all weep and pat each other on the back about how caring you are towards your fellow man. Good on you. Angels all.
Prometheus
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Karma_Karma_Member
Originally Posted by Prometheus:
I knew everyone would miss the point. Blair and Bush are war criminals. How many people did they kill in their search for imaginary WMD? But that's okay it's 'our boys' against powerless civilians or an 'army' of enraged rebels. Murder is f*cking murder. End.

Some poor soul will get murdered next week and it will be in the press. You can all weep and pat each other on the back about how caring you are towards your fellow man. Good on you. Angels all.

Generalising a tad there, no? I don't see anyone agreeing with the acts of war
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PrometheusPrometheusMember
Originally Posted by Karma_:
Originally Posted by Prometheus:
I knew everyone would miss the point. Blair and Bush are war criminals. How many people did they kill in their search for imaginary WMD? But that's okay it's 'our boys' against powerless civilians or an 'army' of enraged rebels. Murder is f*cking murder. End.

Some poor soul will get murdered next week and it will be in the press. You can all weep and pat each other on the back about how caring you are towards your fellow man. Good on you. Angels all.

Generalising a tad there, no? I don't see anyone agreeing with the acts of war

I was trying to make the point we are de-sensitised to murder on a massive scale yet claim to be incredibly shocked on a very minor scale. I suppose that's how the powers that be get to send young men out to die and murder hundreds of thousands of innocents in the process.

Nobody wants to see an innocent person murdered they hate reading it in the papers it's such a shock to the system but if we murder thousands and it's officially authorised well that's okay we'll cheer for it just like all other f*cked up nations in the world. That was my point.
Prometheus
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Karma_Karma_Member
Originally Posted by Prometheus:
Originally Posted by Karma_:
Originally Posted by Prometheus:
I knew everyone would miss the point. Blair and Bush are war criminals. How many people did they kill in their search for imaginary WMD? But that's okay it's 'our boys' against powerless civilians or an 'army' of enraged rebels. Murder is f*cking murder. End.

Some poor soul will get murdered next week and it will be in the press. You can all weep and pat each other on the back about how caring you are towards your fellow man. Good on you. Angels all.

Generalising a tad there, no? I don't see anyone agreeing with the acts of war

I was trying to make the point we are de-sensitised to murder on a massive scale yet claim to be incredibly shocked on a very minor scale. I suppose that's how the powers that be get to send young men out to die and murder hundreds of thousands of innocents in the process.

Nobody wants to see an innocent person murdered they hate reading it in the papers it's such a shock to the system but if we murder thousands and it's officially authorised well that's okay we'll cheer for it just like all other f*cked up nations in the world. That was my point.

But how do you know 'we' are de-sensitised to war killings? Just because it is done as a 'job' when a country goes to war still doesn't make it 'right'.

Are you saying that soldiers are celebrated as heroes and as they kill when at war, then it's wrong to do so?
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PrometheusPrometheusMember
Originally Posted by Karma_:
Are you saying that soldiers are celebrated as heroes and as they kill when at war, then it's wrong to do so?
I don't think they should be celebrated they should be pitied. Do you think they wanted to murder people? I am saying the governments who decide what constitutes murder and therefore merits taking someone's life from them in prison are guilty of much, much worse but as it's officially sanctioned that's okey dokey.

And people accept that. Kitten up a f*cking tree is a nightmare but thousands of our young men dying or murdering other men with wives and families is 'nothing' because they're fighting for the flag or some f*cking halfwit like Blair who says yes sir no sir would you like me to suck it now or later sir to a braindead f*ckwit like Bush.
Prometheus
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FM Former Member
Originally Posted by Prometheus:
Originally Posted by sproooot:
My way of thinking is.......yes we hear it in the news, and I do believe I've become de-sensitised to it  given how much we hear it nowadays.  Does that make me a nasty person 
No sprout it does not 
Thanks Prom.  That didn't come out the way it should've. What I meant to say was...........I abhor all kinds of conflict, but one thing leads to another and most of us are powerless to stop it aren't we? It happens..........although I hate to hide behind 'saying it'
FM
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PrometheusPrometheusMember
Originally Posted by sproooot:
Originally Posted by Prometheus:
Originally Posted by sproooot:
My way of thinking is.......yes we hear it in the news, and I do believe I've become de-sensitised to it  given how much we hear it nowadays.  Does that make me a nasty person 
No sprout it does not 
Thanks Prom.  That didn't come out the way it should've. What I meant to say was...........I abhor all kinds of conflict, but one thing leads to another and most of us are powerless to stop it aren't we? It happens..........although I hate to hide behind 'saying it'

We are absolutely powerless but we are not powerless to question why it happens and what happens as a result, but we never do. You can't question 'the law'.
Prometheus
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Blizz'ardBlizz'ardMember 10 years
Originally Posted by Prometheus:

And people accept that. Kitten up a f*cking tree is a nightmare but thousands of our young men dying or murdering other men with wives and families is 'nothing' because they're fighting for the flag or some f*cking halfwit like Blair who says yes sir no sir would you like me to suck it now or later sir to a braindead f*ckwit like Bush.
What about the Libyian rebels, flying the old flag?

How would you deal with a dictator, Prom?
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Karma_Karma_Member
Well my take on the subject is that it's circumstantial. Judging whether taking someone's life is right or wrong totally depends on what led that to happen. I recently had a massive argument with someone on a forum because I believed Ian Brady deserved to die as slow and as painfully as possible. I was told he still had human rights. To me he doesn't.
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Karma_Karma_Member
Originally Posted by Prometheus:
Originally Posted by Karma_:

And people accept that. Kitten up a f*cking tree is a nightmare but thousands of our young men dying or murdering other men with wives and families is 'nothing' because they're fighting for the flag or some f*cking halfwit like Blair who says yes sir no sir would you like me to suck it now or later sir to a braindead f*ckwit like Bush.
But who is saying it's 'nothing'? Just because it isn't talked about every day does not mean that people are oblivious to it or don't care.
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PrometheusPrometheusMember
Originally Posted by Xochiquetzal:
OK Prom/NonProm.

What has made you have these uncharacteristic and, may I say, very passionate statements? You are making all sorts of presumptions about all sorts of things you perceive me/us to think. 

Have you decided not to write me off as being blind drunk then as was your earlier inclination? Well how kind. I didn't expect that from you. If you must know I watched a film last night that was almost three hours long and it concentrated on the desperate attempts of various police departments to catch a serial killer who it turned out had lost their trail for the most part five years previous.

It concentrated on how shocking the whole experience was for the American people and how important it was for this man to be caught. It mirrors the shock in this country when some loon goes loco and shoots a few people and everyone is horrified. I'd like to put the same people in Iraq while Bush and Blair murdered thousands and give them a close up view just to give them a bit of perspective I hope I've made my viewpoint a bit clearer now so you can stop insulting me and instead give your opinion if you have one.
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FM Former Member
Originally Posted by Karma_:
Well my take on the subject is that it's circumstantial. Judging whether taking someone's life is right or wrong totally depends on what led that to happen. I recently had a massive argument with someone on a forum because I believed Ian Brady deserved to die as slow and as painfully as possible. I was told he still had human rights. To me he doesn't.
That person obviously wasn't thinking straight 
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PrometheusPrometheusMember
Originally Posted by Blizz'ard:
Originally Posted by Prometheus:

And people accept that. Kitten up a f*cking tree is a nightmare but thousands of our young men dying or murdering other men with wives and families is 'nothing' because they're fighting for the flag or some f*cking halfwit like Blair who says yes sir no sir would you like me to suck it now or later sir to a braindead f*ckwit like Bush.
What about the Libyian rebels, flying the old flag?

How would you deal with a dictator, Prom?

I'd shoot him, not everyone who supported him. Guess what? They'd stop.
Prometheus
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PrometheusPrometheusMember
Originally Posted by Karma_:
Originally Posted by Prometheus:
Originally Posted by Karma_:

And people accept that. Kitten up a f*cking tree is a nightmare but thousands of our young men dying or murdering other men with wives and families is 'nothing' because they're fighting for the flag or some f*cking halfwit like Blair who says yes sir no sir would you like me to suck it now or later sir to a braindead f*ckwit like Bush.
But who is saying it's 'nothing'? Just because it isn't talked about every day does not mean that people are oblivious to it or don't care.

It doesn't register Karma. It doesn't happen in their neighbourhood hence they don't care. If it ever does, they might have a re-think.
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XochiXochiMember Memoriam
Another list then.

a) I did not insult you. I asked you'd had a few.

b) the Prom I have become a bit familiar with would not antagonise anyone here in the inflammatory way you have done. viz. my response here.

c) I watched the news and read the Guardian website also most of the afternoon. Did you hear about the director of the LSE's resignation and read the issues around it, for example? 

Just asking politely, you understand.
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PrometheusPrometheusMember
Originally Posted by Xochiquetzal:
Another list then.

a) I did not insult you. I asked you'd had a few.

b) the Prom I have become a bit familiar with would not antagonise anyone here in the inflammatory way you have done. viz. my response here.

c) I watched the news and read the Guardian website also most of the afternoon. Did you hear about the director of the LSE's resignation and read the issues around it, for example? 

Just asking politely, you understand.

No Xoch I haven't seen that. I honestly started this thread having seen a movie which I thought undervalued human life in the great scheme of things. I thought you were sniping at me and couldn't understand why we have never fallen out. I really shouldn't have brought this up it's one of those things you should think about but not bring up for discussion I have already fallen out with my OH just for having these views  so I'm going to leave it here.

No hard feelings I hope
Prometheus
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FM Former Member
Originally Posted by Prometheus:
It doesn't register Karma. It doesn't happen in their neighbourhood hence they don't care. If it ever does, they might have a re-think.
Yep, I think maybe it's because we're distanced from it. I remember watching the CNN coverage of missiles heading past the hotel the press were in, and it was like watching a movie. Surreal. Then you realise that when that thing hits, people are dying and being maimed. 

I think it was that particular war that spawned the phrases " collateral damage " ( dead civilians) and " friendly fire" ( dead allied forces members) . There's spin involved too to kind of sanitise it all as much as possible, but dropping bombs on people and firing missiles at folk is murder.
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PrometheusPrometheusMember
Originally Posted by Slinkiwitch x:
Originally Posted by Prometheus:
It doesn't register Karma. It doesn't happen in their neighbourhood hence they don't care. If it ever does, they might have a re-think.
Yep, I think maybe it's because we're distanced from it. I remember watching the CNN coverage of missiles heading past the hotel the press were in, and it was like watching a movie. Surreal. Then you realise that when that thing hits, people are dying and being maimed. 

I think it was that particular war that spawned the phrases " collateral damage " ( dead civilians) and " friendly fire" ( dead allied forces members) . There's spin involved too to kind of sanitise it all as much as possible, but dropping bombs on people and firing missiles at folk is murder.

Thank you Slinki that was my point 
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Karma_Karma_Member
Originally Posted by Prometheus:
Originally Posted by Karma_:
Originally Posted by Prometheus:
Originally Posted by Karma_:

And people accept that. Kitten up a f*cking tree is a nightmare but thousands of our young men dying or murdering other men with wives and families is 'nothing' because they're fighting for the flag or some f*cking halfwit like Blair who says yes sir no sir would you like me to suck it now or later sir to a braindead f*ckwit like Bush.
But who is saying it's 'nothing'? Just because it isn't talked about every day does not mean that people are oblivious to it or don't care.

It doesn't register Karma. It doesn't happen in their neighbourhood hence they don't care. If it ever does, they might have a re-think.
The only way I can try to familiarise myself with this is to think about what happens when a drug dealer gets ripped off. The dealer's 'people' will go after the culprit and if they can't find him/her then they move on to the family. (I'm really generalising here because murders happen for a lot of reasons but I'm trying to simplify it as much as I can).

But the end result is the same. Those at the top don't get hurt. They're supporters/fans/whatever you want to call them do. Also, some people get involved in stuff when they don't want to and are forced to carry out acts to save their own lives or those of their family. Which in itself raises another question - if you had to kill to save your loved ones - would you?
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Blizz'ardBlizz'ardMember 10 years
Until all leaders are democratically elected and human rights are respected everywhere, there will be wars and war is ugly. There are enough films about wars to remind us of that, as well as real footage, obviously.

Unfortunately, there will still be instances when there is a case for a 'just' war and the lesser of two evils will necessitate some reaction.
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PrometheusPrometheusMember
Originally Posted by Karma_:
Originally Posted by Prometheus:
Originally Posted by Karma_:
Originally Posted by Prometheus:
Originally Posted by Karma_:

And people accept that. Kitten up a f*cking tree is a nightmare but thousands of our young men dying or murdering other men with wives and families is 'nothing' because they're fighting for the flag or some f*cking halfwit like Blair who says yes sir no sir would you like me to suck it now or later sir to a braindead f*ckwit like Bush.
But who is saying it's 'nothing'? Just because it isn't talked about every day does not mean that people are oblivious to it or don't care.

It doesn't register Karma. It doesn't happen in their neighbourhood hence they don't care. If it ever does, they might have a re-think.
The only way I can try to familiarise myself with this is to think about what happens when a drug dealer gets ripped off. The dealer's 'people' will go after the culprit and if they can't find him/her then they move on to the family. (I'm really generalising here because murders happen for a lot of reasons but I'm trying to simplify it as much as I can).

But the end result is the same. Those at the top don't get hurt. They're supporters/fans/whatever you want to call them do. Also, some people get involved in stuff when they don't want to and are forced to carry out acts to save their own lives or those of their family. Which in itself raises another question - if you had to kill to save your loved ones - would you?

That's an interesting hypothetical scenario and in that scenario yes I would fight for my loved ones but they would be my loved ones not an order on a desk from some general who in turn was given orders from a PM who just got off the phone from America to him I would say 'Are they pissing you off? Go and kill them then I'll wait here and congratulate you when you get back having killed them all'.
Prometheus
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ðŸ’ŊâĪïļðŸ˜‚🎉🙏ðŸĪ”😀ðŸ˜đ👍👎☝ïļðŸ‘ðŸ˜ŧ👀ðŸ‘ŋðŸ˜ĒðŸĪŠðŸĪĢ✅🙄ðŸĪ·ðŸ”Ĩ🏆📈ðŸĪŊ
Blizz'ardBlizz'ardMember 10 years
Originally Posted by Prometheus:
That's an interesting hypothetical scenario and in that scenario yes I would fight for my loved ones but they would be my loved ones not an order on a desk from some general who in turn was given orders from a PM who just got off the phone from America to him I would say 'Are they pissing you off? Go and kill them then I'll wait here and congratulate you when you get back having killed them all'.
If you are trapped, with your loved ones, would you want help from strangers?
Blizz'ard
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ðŸ’ŊâĪïļðŸ˜‚🎉🙏ðŸĪ”😀ðŸ˜đ👍👎☝ïļðŸ‘ðŸ˜ŧ👀ðŸ‘ŋðŸ˜ĒðŸĪŠðŸĪĢ✅🙄ðŸĪ·ðŸ”Ĩ🏆📈ðŸĪŊ
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