quote:

Originally posted by Mazzystar:
It was common practice here a few years back to do that.Its only because we went so long without a recession that employers stopped doing it.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Mazzystar:
It was common practice here a few years back to do that.Its only because we went so long without a recession that employers stopped doing it.

That happened to a friend who worked in a small shop fairly recently. I think he wasn't doing very well and didn't want to pay her redundancy if he folded so told her to go before her 2 years were up.

I've been quite conscious of it myself when I've changed jobs. It's a risk, for sure, but I'm lucky enough to be in an industry where it's not systematic.

The thing is though, the law can simply be changed without needing to go back to a unionised workforce. There's always going to be capitalist tension in the workplace for people who sell their labour for wages.

That's why (say) software engineers are paid £35K a year and shop assistants £6 an hour. Shop assistants are usually easily replaced so they can't really demand higher wages. And if they were paid much higher wages then shop prices would go up accordingly.

For all the catastrophic consequences of Mrs Thatcher's radicalism, the country needed a radical change in industrial relations to survive. The interesting thing is that we need something radical again now. We won't be able to support the country's debts very soon without a lot of painful pruning and carefully targetted taxation.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Mazzystar:
It was common practice here a few years back to do that.Its only because we went so long without a recession that employers stopped doing it.

That happened to a friend who worked in a small shop fairly recently. I think he wasn't doing very well and didn't want to pay her redundancy if he folded so told her to go before her 2 years were up.

I've been quite conscious of it myself when I've changed jobs. It's a risk, for sure, but I'm lucky enough to be in an industry where it's not systematic.

The thing is though, the law can simply be changed without needing to go back to a unionised workforce. There's always going to be capitalist tension in the workplace for people who sell their labour for wages.

That's why (say) software engineers are paid £35K a year and shop assistants £6 an hour. Shop assistants are usually easily replaced so they can't really demand higher wages. And if they were paid much higher wages then shop prices would go up accordingly.

For all the catastrophic consequences of Mrs Thatcher's radicalism, the country needed a radical change in industrial relations to survive. The interesting thing is that we need something radical again now. We won't be able to support the country's debts very soon without a lot of painful pruning and carefully targetted taxation.

quote:

Originally posted by Mazzystar:
It upsets me when they still get such a bad press.They work very much alongside bosses rather than against them.And we take for granted many of the benfits they negotiated for us for granted.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

My brother's a shop steward, for my sins.

Union relations are generally much, much better now, of course, than in the 70s. We have a staff council where I work instead of a union. The union tried to set up but no-one was interested.

Speaking of industrial action and given that the weather is turning out nice, isn't it time the French air traffic controllers went on strike again?

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Mazzystar:
It upsets me when they still get such a bad press.They work very much alongside bosses rather than against them.And we take for granted many of the benfits they negotiated for us for granted.

My brother's a shop steward, for my sins.

Union relations are generally much, much better now, of course, than in the 70s. We have a staff council where I work instead of a union. The union tried to set up but no-one was interested.

Speaking of industrial action and given that the weather is turning out nice, isn't it time the French air traffic controllers went on strike again?

quote:

Originally posted by old hippy guy:
oh god I am NOT wishing for a return to the sheer MADNESS of the 70s

quote:

Originally posted by Bigdaddyostrich:
In my limited experience of employment tribunal cases, unions and their shop stewards are only too happy to drop their members like a sack of bricks when the going gets tough

quote:

Originally posted by old hippy guy:

quote:

Originally posted by Bigdaddyostrich:
In my limited experience of employment tribunal cases, unions and their shop stewards are only too happy to drop their members like a sack of bricks when the going gets tough

well, I once tried to take a boss to a tribunal WITHOUT a union behind me....the boss I was talking about earlier as it happens,....needless to say I failed...and so did the appeal

quote:

Originally posted by Bigdaddyostrich:

quote:

Originally posted by old hippy guy:
oh god I am NOT wishing for a return to the sheer MADNESS of the 70s

I always rather liked One Step Beyond...

quote:

Originally posted by old hippy guy:

quote:

Originally posted by Bigdaddyostrich:

quote:

Originally posted by old hippy guy:
oh god I am NOT wishing for a return to the sheer MADNESS of the 70s

I always rather liked One Step Beyond...

quote:

Originally posted by electric6:
FILTH!

quote:

Originally posted by Bigdaddyostrich:

quote:

Originally posted by old hippy guy:

quote:

Originally posted by Bigdaddyostrich:
In my limited experience of employment tribunal cases, unions and their shop stewards are only too happy to drop their members like a sack of bricks when the going gets tough

well, I once tried to take a boss to a tribunal WITHOUT a union behind me....the boss I was talking about earlier as it happens,....needless to say I failed...and so did the appeal

should have tried it with a decent barrister in front of you

quote:

Originally posted by old hippy guy:

quote:

Originally posted by Bigdaddyostrich:

quote:

Originally posted by old hippy guy:

quote:

Originally posted by Bigdaddyostrich:
In my limited experience of employment tribunal cases, unions and their shop stewards are only too happy to drop their members like a sack of bricks when the going gets tough

well, I once tried to take a boss to a tribunal WITHOUT a union behind me....the boss I was talking about earlier as it happens,....needless to say I failed...and so did the appeal

should have tried it with a decent barrister in front of you

it was a joke, my boss even admitted that he LIED to me!!
BUT, as I stupidly believed his "promises" when he set me on and had NO written contract, it was, "dont let the door hit you in the arse on the way out"

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
I'm also all for fining or punishing people for not voting.

*click* Heil!

Why not? It's a civic duty, like jury service. Even if the vote is none of the above or a message across the voting form. I've done the latter before now.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Mazzystar:
It upsets me when they still get such a bad press.They work very much alongside bosses rather than against them.And we take for granted many of the benfits they negotiated for us for granted.

My brother's a shop steward, for my sins.

Union relations are generally much, much better now, of course, than in the 70s. We have a staff council where I work instead of a union. The union tried to set up but no-one was interested.

Speaking of industrial action and given that the weather is turning out nice, isn't it time the French air traffic controllers went on strike again?

quote:

Originally posted by Penny Gabrielwise:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
I'm also all for fining or punishing people for not voting.

*click* Heil!

Why not? It's a civic duty, like jury service. Even if the vote is none of the above or a message across the voting form. I've done the latter before now.

It is compulsory here. My husband got fined last year

quote:

Originally posted by Mazzystar:
So's my OH!!

BDO,sorry about your experience of Trades Unions.Mines very different.My OH happily represents anyone even if they only join the union to face a tribunal

quote:

Originally posted by Bigdaddyostrich:

quote:

Originally posted by Mazzystar:
So's my OH!!

BDO,sorry about your experience of Trades Unions.Mines very different.My OH happily represents anyone even if they only join the union to face a tribunal

Good for him!

not so long ago I had to get a witness summons for a shop steward who refused to come without one. For 2 chaps who had paid their dues for over 20 years

quote:

Originally posted by Mazzystar:

quote:

Originally posted by Bigdaddyostrich:

not so long ago I had to get a witness summons for a shop steward who refused to come without one. For 2 chaps who had paid their dues for over 20 years

That stinks

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:
What do you mean "for your sins?" my Marmite hating friend. You should be proud.
Union relations are only better from the perspective of the boss class employers because they have workers over a barrel. The union of HR scum depts. regularly meet up and share ideas on how to spread misinformation. They don't care. They are evil!
I hope that you never need a Union, well respected fellow warrior against yeast based products.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:
What do you mean "for your sins?" my Marmite hating friend. You should be proud.
Union relations are only better from the perspective of the boss class employers because they have workers over a barrel. The union of HR scum depts. regularly meet up and share ideas on how to spread misinformation. They don't care. They are evil!
I hope that you never need a Union, well respected fellow warrior against yeast based products.

My brother is a Tory voter too. I'm the black sheep of the family there, being a Liberal and inclined to vote LibDem when I'm not being tactical.

I think industrial relations now are good for the country at large. Large organisations are interested in public relations and bad industrial relations are bad for public relations and investor confidence. The relationship between labour force and management and share holders will always be in flux because of the changing economic environment. It mustn't distort too much one way or the other, is all.

And we really mustn't end up with wage inflation again because of overly powerful unions. In the early 70s, the NUM with Scargill rising in its ranks, held the country over a barrel with its 45% pay demand and mass picketing. Stuff like that can't be a good thing. Is it any wonder Thatcher was determined to stop it happening again? That was practically a challenge to law and order itself.

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:
.... and I say again, industrial relations are not good for the country at large. They are good for the people who have an interest in continuing a laissez faire capitalist economy. There is no industry. There are no effective unions. Most workers are now reliant for their information from corrupt HR people. When I first started they were called the personel department and they actually looked after the workforce.
I believe that the American entertainer Clint Eastwood had it right when he said in those imortal words, "Don't piss up my back and tell me it's raining!"

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
We don't have a class consciousness mainly because we don't have shared interests.

quote:

Originally posted by Mazzystar:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
We don't have a class consciousness mainly because we don't have shared interests.

I dont think that was true at the time.If you lived in a mining community there was very much a collective conciousness.It is the destruction of that core of working class values that Thatcher is so despised for,particularly bypeople who lived there.It wasn't just jobs that were lost.And,to me,thats significant.

quote:

Originally posted by ~Orchid~:
I have never known a woman to inspire so much admiration and hatred in equal measure.

quote:

Originally posted by ~Orchid~:
I have never known a woman to inspire so much admiration and hatred in equal measure.

quote:

Originally posted by Garage Joe:
I wish you wouldn't keep referring to Scargill and his fellow Marxists and Trots.
Scargill was doing a job representing the Union. I say again, he wouldn't know the difference between a Marxist, a Leninist, a Marxist Leninist, a Trotskyist, or a Stakhanovite, though to be fair I'm not sure about the latter either.

quote:

Originally posted by Mazzystar:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
We don't have a class consciousness mainly because we don't have shared interests.

I dont think that was true at the time.If you lived in a mining community there was very much a collective conciousness.It is the destruction of that core of working class values that Thatcher is so despised for,particularly bypeople who lived there.It wasn't just jobs that were lost.And,to me,thats significant.