quote:Originally posted by fracas:
Oh well, that's completely different then
It is. What can I say. The two statements are obviously not equivalent. It's 1+1=3 to say they are.
It is. What can I say. The two statements are obviously not equivalent. It's 1+1=3 to say they are.
quote:Originally posted by Blizzie:quote:Originally posted by china:
can we not argue
cos i'll be honest, i get offended, i mean deeply offended when someone sticks up for me because of my background, colour, whatever
and that person has probably never stepped foot on a ferry to jersey out of england
not EVERY brown, yellow, black face takes offence to things
in fact me and my mates (not all, but most) can find it funny
life is for living, not argueing (sp)
so dont stick up for us
chill out and join us-its more fun
Aww, china, that's all very well, but when you watch a documentary about an Asian lady running a village shop, with secret cameras recording countless 'locals' of all ages, shouting P*ki through the door, all through the day, or coming in and treating her like dirt, it makes you want to change things.
If I'm now allowed to mock Mr Patel's accent, the next time he gets my newspaper bill wrong and gets a bit arsey with me, then we're moving backwards, IMO.
I'll bet that half the people clapping Marcus's stand, will also be first in line to demand immigrants learn English pretty sharpish on arrival, or before they arrive. Do they also expect complete eradication of the accent too?
With reagrd to your comment about immigrants learning English before they come to this country, surely it makes sense to have a working knowledge of the language of the country you are going to live in before becoming a resident of that country. It makes my blood boil when you hear of people who have gone to live in France or Spain who don't learn the language first.
No right minded person would think it was right to use the p**i or n****r word, yet I have noticed younger members of both communties use both words when talking to each other.
We are evolving into a, I use the term warily "multi cultural society" but all processes take time.
Just my views.
quote:Originally posted by Eugene's Lair:quote:Originally posted by Daniel J*:quote:Originally posted by Rekaf:
your motives are good and in the examples ...problems to challenges...works very well when in the seminar for company unity and its good in some instances but sometimes not so good in the real world. political correctness must be challenged like everything else....nothing can be absolute or it ends up corrupted absolutely....we do have nonsensical pc...ba ba black sheep, manhole covers, blackboards, whitewash, flying certain flags....i realise that a lot of the negatives get a lot more publicity than the positives but it points out what may happen if its unrestrained, and without pc this country, like most of western europe has managed to have democratic governments, social security, welfare systems, old age pensions and everything else that goes with it.....
I don't think you'll find many liberals like me saying that political correctness or anything else shouldn't be challenged. Quite the opposite, really. The trouble with 'political correctness' is mostly that it's been hijacked, satired, co-opted by the left, satired again, co-opted by the right, mis-used, misunderstood, and that the satire has been taken as truth at times. It's almost meaningless, really, except as an insult.
This discussion keeps coming up every year, and the basic fact as described above by Daniel remains unchanged: The term "Politically Correct" no longer has any meaning in a positive sense, and is only ever used now in the negative.
True "PC" is simply about avoiding undue offense to others, and (getting back to the original point of this thread), I saw nothing in Marcus's comments last night that the truly PC would actually disagree with - his point was not that we should be allowed to mock others, but that everyone should be treated equally.
BTW: I'm not sure about all the examples quoted by Rekaf, but the banning of "Ba ba black sheep" and "blackboard" are actually myths created by the right-wing press...
TRADITIONAL nursery rhymes are being rewritten at nursery schools to avoid causing offence to children.
Instead of singing “Baa baa, black sheep” as generations of children have learnt to do, toddlers in Oxfordshire are being taught to sing “Baa baa, rainbow sheep”.
The move, which critics will seize on as an example of political correctness, was made after the nurseries decided to re-evaluate their approach to equal opportunities.
Stuart Chamberlain, manager of the Family Centre in Abingdon and the Sure Start centre in Sutton Courtenay, Oxfordshire, told the local Courier Journal newspaper: “We have taken the equal opportunities approach to everything we do.
“This is fairly standard across nurseries. We are following stringent equal opportunities rules. No one should feel pointed out because of their race, gender or anything else.”
This is not the first time, however, that the nursery rhyme — written in 1744 satirising the taxes imposed on wool exports — has fallen foul of political correctness. In 2000 Birmingham City Council tried to ban the rhyme, after claiming that it was racist and portrayed negative stereotypes. The council rescinded the ban after black parents said it was ludicrous.
Last year, a nursery school in Aberdeen caused uproar, when teachers changed the lyrics to “Baa baa, happy sheep”.
Margaret Morrissey, of the National Confederation of Parent Teachers Association, said: “It’s really sad. Children for generations have loved and enjoyed nursery rhymes and it’s very sad if adult political correctness doesn’t allow them to grow up in an unbiased world.”
quote:Originally posted by china:
cos people think its US and its not
How does "ba ba rainbow sheep" even rhyme??
quote:Originally posted by fracas:quote:Originally posted by china:
cos people think its US and its not
Most people don't think that though.
quote:Originally posted by fracas:quote:Originally posted by china:
cos people think its US and its not
TA!
at last someone who knows what im on about
quote:Originally posted by fabienne:quote:Originally posted by fracas:quote:Originally posted by china:
cos people think its US and its not
Most people don't think that though.
sadly, some do
quote:Originally posted by china:quote:Originally posted by fabienne:quote:Originally posted by fracas:quote:Originally posted by china:
cos people think its US and its not
Most people don't think that though.
sadly, some do
But should we cater only to the thickos?
quote:Originally posted by Rekaf:
TRADITIONAL nursery rhymes are being rewritten at nursery schools to avoid causing offence to children.
Instead of singing “Baa baa, black sheep” as generations of children have learnt to do, toddlers in Oxfordshire are being taught to sing “Baa baa, rainbow sheep”.
The move, which critics will seize on as an example of political correctness, was made after the nurseries decided to re-evaluate their approach to equal opportunities.
Stuart Chamberlain, manager of the Family Centre in Abingdon and the Sure Start centre in Sutton Courtenay, Oxfordshire, told the local Courier Journal newspaper: “We have taken the equal opportunities approach to everything we do.
“This is fairly standard across nurseries. We are following stringent equal opportunities rules. No one should feel pointed out because of their race, gender or anything else.”
This is not the first time, however, that the nursery rhyme — written in 1744 satirising the taxes imposed on wool exports — has fallen foul of political correctness. In 2000 Birmingham City Council tried to ban the rhyme, after claiming that it was racist and portrayed negative stereotypes. The council rescinded the ban after black parents said it was ludicrous.
Last year, a nursery school in Aberdeen caused uproar, when teachers changed the lyrics to “Baa baa, happy sheep”.
Margaret Morrissey, of the National Confederation of Parent Teachers Association, said: “It’s really sad. Children for generations have loved and enjoyed nursery rhymes and it’s very sad if adult political correctness doesn’t allow them to grow up in an unbiased world.”
A story debunked years ago by Private Eye, but which unfortunately refuses to die. See
http://www.septicisle.info/200...ainbow-bollocks.html
quote:Originally posted by PinkBabe1966:
With reagrd to your comment about immigrants learning English before they come to this country, surely it makes sense to have a working knowledge of the language of the country you are going to live in before becoming a resident of that country. It makes my blood boil when you hear of people who have gone to live in France or Spain who don't learn the language first.
couldn't agree more - i was jobhunting in southern spain a few weeks ago, and there are british expats who've lived there for as much as 8 years and haven't bothered to learn even basic spanish. how arrogant and discourteous can you get?
and don't even get me started on the way they've attempted to impose the very worst of british culture on what was probably once a lovely region. i found a supermarket called 'Spainsburys' ffs
the race card is certainly not one-sided.
quote:Originally posted by china:quote:Originally posted by fracas:quote:Originally posted by china:
cos people think its US and its not
TA!
at last someone who knows what im on about
I do mate, I do. It'd be funny if it weren't such a pain in the...ah, sod it, it's just funny
quote:Originally posted by china:
im going to blitish telly
luv ya
Ta ra!
quote:Originally posted by china:
im going to blitish telly
luv ya
Would China please come to the Diary Room...
quote:Originally posted by china:
i object-and so do many others of my 'ilk' to people thinking they know whats good for me-they bloody do not
Have you considered that it's not just for the good of your ilk, as you put it. Certain ethnic groups, Bangladeshi for example, do less well on average than other ethnic groups, such as East African Indians. Well meaning, say, educational achievement and employment status. Should we, as a society and our government, simply ignore that? What if that difference breeds resentment and it causes social unrest. As it has done in the past. What if more social security payments need to be meted out to that group? What causes the difference? A inherent stupidity in Bangladeshis? An internal cultural issue? A bias against them by the local population or the state system? That's all on top of the loss of potential we as a whole might be experiencing as far as industry innovation, academic research, or tax revenues are concerned.
quote:Originally posted by Eugene's Lair:
I saw nothing in Marcus's comments last night that the truly PC would actually disagree with - his point was not that we should be allowed to mock others, but that everyone should be treated equally.
Yes, that was very PC of him wasn't it.....oh the irony
quote:Originally posted by Eugene's Lair:quote:Originally posted by Rekaf:
TRADITIONAL nursery rhymes are being rewritten at nursery schools to avoid causing offence to children.
Instead of singing “Baa baa, black sheep” as generations of children have learnt to do, toddlers in Oxfordshire are being taught to sing “Baa baa, rainbow sheep”.
The move, which critics will seize on as an example of political correctness, was made after the nurseries decided to re-evaluate their approach to equal opportunities.
Stuart Chamberlain, manager of the Family Centre in Abingdon and the Sure Start centre in Sutton Courtenay, Oxfordshire, told the local Courier Journal newspaper: “We have taken the equal opportunities approach to everything we do.
“This is fairly standard across nurseries. We are following stringent equal opportunities rules. No one should feel pointed out because of their race, gender or anything else.”
This is not the first time, however, that the nursery rhyme — written in 1744 satirising the taxes imposed on wool exports — has fallen foul of political correctness. In 2000 Birmingham City Council tried to ban the rhyme, after claiming that it was racist and portrayed negative stereotypes. The council rescinded the ban after black parents said it was ludicrous.
Last year, a nursery school in Aberdeen caused uproar, when teachers changed the lyrics to “Baa baa, happy sheep”.
Margaret Morrissey, of the National Confederation of Parent Teachers Association, said: “It’s really sad. Children for generations have loved and enjoyed nursery rhymes and it’s very sad if adult political correctness doesn’t allow them to grow up in an unbiased world.”
A story debunked years ago by Private Eye, but which unfortunately refuses to die. See
http://www.septicisle.info/200...ainbow-bollocks.html
ah, it says so in private eye.....then it must be true.....
I did a google search on "Stuart Chamberlain, manager of the Family Centre in Abingdon". Looks like loads of the papers picked that story up and strangely managed to include that phrase word for word.
As an American, I can see more similarities than differences in the "PC Brigade".
My sister-in-law, for example, is Mexican. She is quite proud of her heritage and made the point of bringing up her daughters to be proud of that. Fine by me, BUT she had a terrible loathing for what she called "wet backs" - people from Mexico who entered the country illegally by swimming across the Rio Grande.
When my husband I become engaged and were trying to decide whether to live in the UK or the US, we investigated all the immigration rules for both countries and it was a lot easier for me to emmigrate than it would be for him.
When I moved from my midwest city to North Carolina, I was shocked at the amount of racism there. It was very obvious and the use of the "N" word was an everyday occurance. The US is not the "melting pot" that they want the rest of the world to perceive.
I had always thought that the UK was much more tolerant than the US. When a black friend of mine came to visit a few years ago with her white husband, he was concerned about how they would be viewed as a couple. Even now, with a black President, there are still a lot of undercurrents.
Ok, I'm waffling again!
My sister-in-law, for example, is Mexican. She is quite proud of her heritage and made the point of bringing up her daughters to be proud of that. Fine by me, BUT she had a terrible loathing for what she called "wet backs" - people from Mexico who entered the country illegally by swimming across the Rio Grande.
When my husband I become engaged and were trying to decide whether to live in the UK or the US, we investigated all the immigration rules for both countries and it was a lot easier for me to emmigrate than it would be for him.
When I moved from my midwest city to North Carolina, I was shocked at the amount of racism there. It was very obvious and the use of the "N" word was an everyday occurance. The US is not the "melting pot" that they want the rest of the world to perceive.
I had always thought that the UK was much more tolerant than the US. When a black friend of mine came to visit a few years ago with her white husband, he was concerned about how they would be viewed as a couple. Even now, with a black President, there are still a lot of undercurrents.
Ok, I'm waffling again!
quote:Originally posted by Rekaf:
ah, it says so in private eye.....then it must be true.....
I'd trust PE over the tabloid press TBH Rekaf
quote:Originally posted by Rekaf:
ah, it says so in private eye.....then it must be true.....
Have you read the quoted link? Private Eye did their research and showed that the Birmingham and Aberdeen stories were not based on the actual facts. The playgroup was not removing the word "black", but rather adding additional verses which included other colours such as "blue", "white", etc, and action words such as "bouncing" and "hopping" which the children could act out.
There was never any "PC" agenda - the playgroup was just trying to make the song more fun and increase its educational value (by increasing vocabulary).
quote:Originally posted by fracas:quote:Originally posted by Rekaf:
ah, it says so in private eye.....then it must be true.....
I'd trust PE over the tabloid press TBH Rekaf
so would i as well.....
quote:Originally posted by Eugene's Lair:quote:Originally posted by Rekaf:
ah, it says so in private eye.....then it must be true.....
Have you read the quoted link? Private Eye did their research and showed that the Birmingham and Aberdeen stories were not based on the actual facts. The playgroup was not removing the word "black", but rather adding additional verses which included other colours such as "blue", "white", etc, and action words such as "bouncing" and "hopping" which the children could act out.
There was never any "PC" agenda - the playgroup was just trying to make the song more fun and increase its educational value (by increasing vocabulary).
calm down eugene, you will make yourself ill and blame me....you're not ethnic are you..i could be in trouble.....
quote:Originally posted by Eugene's Lair:
There was never any "PC" agenda - the playgroup was just trying to make the song more fun and increase its educational value (by increasing vocabulary).
The Birmingham 'Winterval replacing Christmas' story is a good one too. It just won't die, presumably because of the affection we have for being outraged by PC Gone Mad.
quote:Originally posted by fracas:quote:Originally posted by Rekaf:
ah, it says so in private eye.....then it must be true.....
I'd trust PE over the tabloid press TBH Rekaf
It's just not Private Eye, though. Other newspapers have rebuffed those claims. What really gets me though, it's not the people who are offended, but others who are offended on their behalf that make the complaints.
We saw that recently when an Asian that Prince Charles played polo with, and he was known to the others, and to his face as something the press picked up on as being offensive. There was a big uproar on behalf of the man in question, but he wasn't offended at all.
quote:Originally posted by Rekaf:calm down eugene, you will make yourself ill and blame me....you're not ethnic are you..i could be in trouble.....
Heheh... I'll happily admit here and now that all my health issues are self-inflicted.
As for your second point: define "ethnic"...
quote:Originally posted by Suzi-Q:
We saw that recently when an Asian that Prince Charles played polo with, and he was known to the others, and to his face as something the press picked up on as being offensive. There was a big uproar on behalf of the man in question, but he wasn't offended at all.
You know that Sooty would have been completely ostracised by the Upper Class if he had said he was quietly offended.
quote:Originally posted by Suzi-Q:
It's just not Private Eye, though. Other newspapers have rebuffed those claims. What really gets me though, it's not the people who are offended, but others who are offended on their behalf that make the complaints.
.
To be fair Suzi, articles like these are meant specifically to inflame, and it is surprising how many people will swallow it and soon it becomes a 'truth'. It's right wing propaganda, but I think any extreme is dangerous. I'm just for common sense!
quote:Originally posted by Daniel J*:
Sooty
Would Deej please come to the Diary Room.
This is actually a very intellectual point about context
quote:Originally posted by Daniel J*:quote:Originally posted by Suzi-Q:
We saw that recently when an Asian that Prince Charles played polo with, and he was known to the others, and to his face as something the press picked up on as being offensive. There was a big uproar on behalf of the man in question, but he wasn't offended at all.
You know that Sooty would have been completely ostracised by the Upper Class if he had said he was quietly offended.
I don't think so. When my husband was still playing, it was the upper class that were always "borrowing" fags from him.
If "Sooty" was offended, he could have made a mint. My point is that so many of the "PC Brigade" seem to be intent on not causing offense that they go completely overboard. Instead of treating people as equals, regardless of colour or creed, we, as a society, are going the opposite way and making more of the differences than what is the similarities.
At the end of the day, people are people the world over. We have the same needs - food, shelter, etc. We have the same desires - love, acceptance, etc.
quote:Originally posted by fracas:quote:Originally posted by Suzi-Q:
It's just not Private Eye, though. Other newspapers have rebuffed those claims. What really gets me though, it's not the people who are offended, but others who are offended on their behalf that make the complaints.
.
To be fair Suzi, articles like these are meant specifically to inflame, and it is surprising how many people will swallow it and soon it becomes a 'truth'. It's right wing propaganda, but I think any extreme is dangerous. I'm just for common sense!
Yep! Exactly right. It's a good thing we have had the expenses scandal to unite us all together against a common enemy!
quote:Originally posted by Daniel J*:quote:Originally posted by china:
i object-and so do many others of my 'ilk' to people thinking they know whats good for me-they bloody do not
Have you considered that it's not just for the good of your ilk, as you put it. Certain ethnic groups, Bangladeshi for example, do less well on average than other ethnic groups, such as East African Indians. Well meaning, say, educational achievement and employment status. Should we, as a society and our government, simply ignore that? What if that difference breeds resentment and it causes social unrest. As it has done in the past. What if more social security payments need to be meted out to that group? What causes the difference? A inherent stupidity in Bangladeshis? An internal cultural issue? A bias against them by the local population or the state system? That's all on top of the loss of potential we as a whole might be experiencing as far as industry innovation, academic research, or tax revenues are concerned.
it was always believed that black kids did not do as well as white kids, some people blamed the teachers who they say (unwittingly) thought the black kids would not do as well anyway so did not push them, if you remember, trevor phillips came in for some severe stick when he suggested that the problem could be that some black kids may condider that its not 'cool' to get good marks, now, last week we are told that its the white males who are lagging behind just about everyone....whats going on?, what can we believe, we are all quoting different sources who is telling the truth, but apart from all this, is it possible that some kids are cleverer than others....is it possible that some kids are more artistic than others, is it possible that some kids revel in the abstract rigidity of maths and some would rather create a story..i'm not talking about ethnic groups just individual children, why this obsession with uniformity, i have read and heard so many contradictions that my head spins with it all, pc is about equality and uniformity its about not calling someone an imbecile or retarded but saying they have 'learning difficulties'...swapping one label for another because when wayne goes to the corner shop and beats the crap out of the owner, he isn't a violent thug, he has 'learning difficulties'...i'm all for helping people but calling a blind man visually challenged doesn't help him, you think that by changing labels you will change thought and thereby change perceptions, you wont......rant over goodnight.
quote:Originally posted by Suzi-Q:
Yep! Exactly right. It's a good thing we have had the expenses scandal to unite us all together against a common enemy!
Well, there is that!
quote:Originally posted by Eugene's Lair:quote:Originally posted by Rekaf:calm down eugene, you will make yourself ill and blame me....you're not ethnic are you..i could be in trouble.....
Heheh... I'll happily admit here and now that all my health issues are self-inflicted.
As for your second point: define "ethnic"...
....tricky, i'll have to think about that one....
quote:Originally posted by Daniel J*:quote:Originally posted by china:
i object-and so do many others of my 'ilk' to people thinking they know whats good for me-they bloody do not
Have you considered that it's not just for the good of your ilk, as you put it. Certain ethnic groups, Bangladeshi for example, do less well on average than other ethnic groups, such as East African Indians. Well meaning, say, educational achievement and employment status. Should we, as a society and our government, simply ignore that? What if that difference breeds resentment and it causes social unrest. As it has done in the past. What if more social security payments need to be meted out to that group? What causes the difference? A inherent stupidity in Bangladeshis? An internal cultural issue? A bias against them by the local population or the state system? That's all on top of the loss of potential we as a whole might be experiencing as far as industry innovation, academic research, or tax revenues are concerned.
no!
i havent bothered/considered ANYTHING
we're all clever in our own way, be it maths, english etc..
i really dont care
all i know is ive got an army of people behind me that i really dont want
and believe me us 'asians' are getting annoyed with it-read some asian websites!
maaaaan we need to sort out the kids who need to learn to read and write regardless of the their colour
surely thats more important?
well i think it is
quote:Originally posted by Rekaf:quote:Originally posted by Daniel J*:quote:Originally posted by china:
i object-and so do many others of my 'ilk' to people thinking they know whats good for me-they bloody do not
Have you considered that it's not just for the good of your ilk, as you put it. Certain ethnic groups, Bangladeshi for example, do less well on average than other ethnic groups, such as East African Indians. Well meaning, say, educational achievement and employment status. Should we, as a society and our government, simply ignore that? What if that difference breeds resentment and it causes social unrest. As it has done in the past. What if more social security payments need to be meted out to that group? What causes the difference? A inherent stupidity in Bangladeshis? An internal cultural issue? A bias against them by the local population or the state system? That's all on top of the loss of potential we as a whole might be experiencing as far as industry innovation, academic research, or tax revenues are concerned.
it was always believed that black kids did not do as well as white kids, some people blamed the teachers who they say (unwittingly) thought the black kids would not do as well anyway so did not push them, if you remember, trevor phillips came in for some severe stick when he suggested that the problem could be that some black kids may condider that its not 'cool' to get good marks, now, last week we are told that its the white males who are lagging behind just about everyone....whats going on?, what can we believe, we are all quoting different sources who is telling the truth, but apart from all this, is it possible that some kids are cleverer than others....is it possible that some kids are more artistic than others, is it possible that some kids revel in the abstract rigidity of maths and some would rather create a story..i'm not talking about ethnic groups just individual children, why this obsession with uniformity, i have read and heard so many contradictions that my head spins with it all, pc is about equality and uniformity its about not calling someone an imbecile or retarded but saying they have 'learning difficulties'...swapping one label for another because when wayne goes to the corner shop and beats the crap out of the owner, he isn't a violent thug, he has 'learning difficulties'...i'm all for helping people but calling a blind man visually challenged doesn't help him, you think that by changing labels you will change thought and thereby change perceptions, you wont......rant over goodnight.
Good post. A label is a label is a label - no matter how it's dressed.
My beef is not about the labels, I think we will always have those so some bureacrat can tick the box, it's the inherent perceived notion that "I" am better than "you" because I am upper class, middle class, working class, etc.
I don't know, is it something in our DNA that makes us WANT or NEED to show our dominance or superiority over another person? Or is it just our ever increasing need of oil that causes us to invade oil rich countries that have shown no overt threat but may do because some idiot thinks they are a threat?
quote:Originally posted by china:
no!
i havent bothered/considered ANYTHING
we're all clever in our own way, be it maths, english etc..
i really dont care
all i know is ive got an army of people behind me that i really dont want
and believe me us 'asians' are getting annoyed with it-read some asian websites!
maaaaan we need to sort out the kids who need to learn to read and write regardless of the their colour
surely thats more important?
well i think it is
I agree with this. This is what I mean, theories and statistics leading to new directives in trying to tell people how to think is largely irrelevant in real peoples' lives. It is condescending and doesn't consider reality.
Anyway, what's wrong with there being differences between people? Who's to say what is right and wrong? Who decides?
quote:Who's to say what is right and wrong? Who decides?
I have tried to make the same point before. We have extremists everywhere declaring that their views are right and if we don't believe as they do, we will burn in hell.
As for me, I will burn my sage and chant my adoration to Mother Earth.