quote:

Originally posted by Blizzie:

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
Anyway thanks Daniel and Blizzie for a good convo.

Till the next show...got to go now .

Aww, I had to go and pick up my slightly sozzled son!

Just a couple of points, if you read this tomorrow -

'Coloureds' in South Africa were mixed race, but had a higher status than Blicks (yes, I feel allowed to make a bit of fun of the Sarf Ifricaan accent! ), under Apartheid.

And, my point about the 'Going for an English' sketch, was that it was making fun of people like Marcus, who thought it was OK to treat others as inferior and make fun of their accents.

I think BB had every right to pull him up on it, as it was not done in humour, or affectionately.

Thanks for the discussion though.

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
Marcus was just taking the piss out of him the same way Kris and Lisa have been Freddys accent for the last 2 weeks.

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
You misunderstand where "coloured" came from it was always derogatory in South Africa to label a child of mixed race. Because at the time there were so few of them. It wasnt applied to blacks or whites or Indian in South Africa. It was used incorrectly over here for a number of years by people who didnt know any better and and thankfully stopped being used. It was the peoples attitude to mixed race that made coloured derogatory not the word influencing us.

quote:

Originally posted by Demantoid:
The argument over who first used the term "coloured" is irrelevant.

quote:

Originally posted by Demantoid:
The argument over who first used the term "coloured" is irrelevant.

BB is guilty of the most disgusting double standards, if it's claiming to abhor behaviour or language that could be offensive to HMs' or viewers' culture.

For weeks, they have stood by and done nothing while Freddie's accent was ridiculed in the most hostile manner and he was ostracised and attacked by many in the house purely because of his upper class culture.

And yet someone says "thirteen thirteens" to Sree, and suddenly it's a diplomatic incident

quote:

Originally posted by Demantoid:
BB is guilty of the most disgusting double standards, if it's claiming to abhor behaviour or language that could be offensive to HMs' or viewers' culture.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Demantoid:
The argument over who first used the term "coloured" is irrelevant.

Not to a discussion about the positive power or otheriwse of political correctness itself.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Demantoid:
BB is guilty of the most disgusting double standards, if it's claiming to abhor behaviour or language that could be offensive to HMs' or viewers' culture.

That's not the sub-text though, is it? That's the language it is framed in but the sub-text is that they don't want another Shilpa racial incident involving an ethnic minority. By culture, they mean ethnicity, not social class.

quote:

Originally posted by Demantoid:
They can't have it both ways, as Marcus rightly pointed out. It's been fine to mimic the accents of Freddie, Charlie, Lisa, Noirin and so on, yet suddenly because Sree's Indian it's a problem?

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Demantoid:
They can't have it both ways, as Marcus rightly pointed out. It's been fine to mimic the accents of Freddie, Charlie, Lisa, Noirin and so on, yet suddenly because Sree's Indian it's a problem?

We all know it's because Sree is Indian and BB have warned hms that they need to be careful of being involved in incidents which might be perceived as racist. Politicians do that all the time because they know it's all about perception in the media irrespectively of the facts. Marcus was quite rightly arguing on the facts, and well done to BB for showing all that, but BB was making the point because of perceptions. Sree may well have been 'playing the race card' or he may simply be sensitised to references to his ethnicity as he's an ethnic minority. We're sensitised to racism too which is why people sometimes over-analyse and why we get media panics about racism like the Shilpa Shetty situation and why we get backlashes against self-policing by 'political correctness'.

quote:

Originally posted by Rekaf:
what i found most amusing was the fact that marcus stuck to his guns and refused to back down, bb had obviously expected the usual cringing, appologetic reaction when issuing warnings but came in for a very rude awakening, well done to marcus.....this bb encounter should be held up as a shining example of the phrase 'attack is the best means of defence'

quote:

Originally posted by Demantoid:

quote:

Originally posted by Rekaf:
what i found most amusing was the fact that marcus stuck to his guns and refused to back down, bb had obviously expected the usual cringing, appologetic reaction when issuing warnings but came in for a very rude awakening, well done to marcus.....this bb encounter should be held up as a shining example of the phrase 'attack is the best means of defence'

Bloody right. Why should anyone (never mind someone who's spent the past few days sliming round an attracive black female HM) meekly accept being accused of being a racist?
It's a VERY serious accusation.

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
Hmm actually Blicks as you say despised "coloureds" as much as the indians and whites which is why its such a taboo word its not only whites that can be racist you know they were literally the lowest of the low all three races considered "coloureds" beneath them, the racist ones that is. Surely you should know that. I know it was misused in this country for years but even so.

quote:

Originally posted by *+*Lara*+*:
I thought he did a fantastic job and I give the finger to the PC brigade as well.



I am so fed up with my children coming home from school and saying that they are not allowed to use certain words ie baa baa black sheep, black board etc. With out opening a tin of worms these words have been around for many many years and all of a sudden they are offensive.

I am now going to shut up as I will explode.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
True 'political correctness' is about the relationship between words and thoughts. We not only put our thoughts into words, we also think in certain ways over time because of the words we use. It's the second of those that gives political correctness its power and makes it quite desirable if used properly.

quote:

Originally posted by Blizzie:

quote:

Originally posted by jennywren:
But if you changed "disabled" to "physically challenged" or some other word or phrase, then that new phrase takes the place of the old one, and becomes just as encumbered with connotations. The PC brigade don't seem to understand that.

We used to use the word Spastic, but the use of the word became a term of ridicule or aggression and so Cerebral Palsy replaced it. Still it seems that the word has been creeping back into use, mainly by those who don't remember those days.

quote:

Originally posted by ѕρι∂єямσηкєγ:
I bet he's made a few enemies among the viewers tonight.

Thoroughly entertaining though. One of the few occasions in BB10 when I found myself laughing out loud.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
You misunderstand where "coloured" came from it was always derogatory in South Africa to label a child of mixed race. Because at the time there were so few of them. It wasnt applied to blacks or whites or Indian in South Africa. It was used incorrectly over here for a number of years by people who didnt know any better and and thankfully stopped being used. It was the peoples attitude to mixed race that made coloured derogatory not the word influencing us.

You're saying that the label 'coloured' that was used in the UK after the immigration from South Asia and the Caribbean in the 1950s and 1960s comes from South Africa?

I don't think that's true at all. If it comes from anywhere then I reckon it comes from America but I doubt it even comes from there. I think it was probably used by the newspapers and politicians during that time of 'mass' immigration from the Caribbean and South Asia and people simply took to it directly from them. I can't see that mixed race distinctions were even recognised much less misunderstood and misused.

quote:

Originally posted by Lockes no 1 fan:
I lauged when BB said have you anything to say,probably expecting remorse and an apology and Marcus just turned around and said "thats shit"

quote:

Originally posted by Blizzie:

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
Hmm actually Blicks as you say despised "coloureds" as much as the indians and whites which is why its such a taboo word its not only whites that can be racist you know they were literally the lowest of the low all three races considered "coloureds" beneath them, the racist ones that is. Surely you should know that. I know it was misused in this country for years but even so.

From the National Party's Colour Policy, 1948:

The Coloured community takes a middle position between the European and the Natives. A policy of separation (apartheid) between the Europeans and Coloureds and between Natives and Coloureds will be applied in the social, residential, industrial and political spheres. No marriage between Europeans and Coloureds will be permitted. The Coloureds will be protected against unfair competition from the Natives in so far as where they are already established.


The Coloured population even had some voting rights, as long as they voted for Europeans!

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
I stand corrected thanks Blizzie

Damn decent of them wasnt it. lol

quote:

Originally posted by vodka jellyfish:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
True 'political correctness' is about the relationship between words and thoughts. We not only put our thoughts into words, we also think in certain ways over time because of the words we use. It's the second of those that gives political correctness its power and makes it quite desirable if used properly.

absolutely spot on deej - but sadly it works the other way as well...forcing us to think in a certain way by limiting the language we're allowed to use. orwell called it 'newspeak' as someone else said, it can end up causing resentment and ultimately do more harm than good

quote:

Yet I was defined by being normal

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by vodka jellyfish:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
True 'political correctness' is about the relationship between words and thoughts. We not only put our thoughts into words, we also think in certain ways over time because of the words we use. It's the second of those that gives political correctness its power and makes it quite desirable if used properly.

absolutely spot on deej - but sadly it works the other way as well...forcing us to think in a certain way by limiting the language we're allowed to use. orwell called it 'newspeak' as someone else said, it can end up causing resentment and ultimately do more harm than good

It's not like Orwell's Newspeak at all. There isn't a move to limit the dictionary, or reduce the total number of words, or remove nuance by getting rid of synonyms and antomyms. Orwell simply understood the power of words and the theory behind changing the way people think about stuff by changing labels, and put it into a totalitarian backdrop.

Political correctness is no more sinister really than, say, changing 'problems' in the workplace to 'challenges'. People laugh at that, including me, but I have no doubt it works to motivate people if used effectively. Problems are obstacles, challenges are opportunities to succeed. We still have the word 'problem' with all its synonyms and antonyms, of course.

When I was a kid, people used to call people in wheelchairs 'handicapped' probably without thinking about it and almost certainly without malice. Of course, wheelchair users are handicapped when presented with a set of stairs. They're probably no more handicapped than me though when sat at a desk using a computer. Yet I was defined by being normal and they were defined as being handicapped. That's not Orwellian newspeak to discourage people from seeing wheelchair users as 'the handicapped' and encouraging people to see beyond the wheelchair to what they are actually able to do. Negative to positive, you see.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by vodka jellyfish:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
True 'political correctness' is about the relationship between words and thoughts. We not only put our thoughts into words, we also think in certain ways over time because of the words we use. It's the second of those that gives political correctness its power and makes it quite desirable if used properly.

absolutely spot on deej - but sadly it works the other way as well...forcing us to think in a certain way by limiting the language we're allowed to use. orwell called it 'newspeak' as someone else said, it can end up causing resentment and ultimately do more harm than good

It's not like Orwell's Newspeak at all. There isn't a move to limit the dictionary, or reduce the total number of words, or remove nuance by getting rid of synonyms and antomyms. Orwell simply understood the power of words and the theory behind changing the way people think about stuff by changing labels, and put it into a totalitarian backdrop.

Political correctness is no more sinister really than, say, changing 'problems' in the workplace to 'challenges'. People laugh at that, including me, but I have no doubt it works to motivate people if used effectively. Problems are obstacles, challenges are opportunities to succeed. We still have the word 'problem' with all its synonyms and antonyms, of course.

When I was a kid, people used to call people in wheelchairs 'handicapped' probably without thinking about it and almost certainly without malice. Of course, wheelchair users are handicapped when presented with a set of stairs. They're probably no more handicapped than me though when sat at a desk using a computer. Yet I was defined by being normal and they were defined as being handicapped. That's not Orwellian newspeak to discourage people from seeing wheelchair users as 'the handicapped' and encouraging people to see beyond the wheelchair to what they are actually able to do. Negative to positive, you see.

quote:

Originally posted by kimota:

quote:

Originally posted by ѕρι∂єямσηкєγ:
I bet he's made a few enemies among the viewers tonight.

Thoroughly entertaining though. One of the few occasions in BB10 when I found myself laughing out loud.

Probably he'll become a hero for 'white van man' though! Personally I think he had a point on the 'culture' thing, that if Sree mimics him then its ok but not the other way round!, but feel he was definately using threatning language to Sree, whether he meant it to be or not!
I sort of admire his defiance of BB though. Most hms would just meekly apologise but not Marcus!

quote:

Originally posted by The Secretary:

quote:

Yet I was defined by being normal

You sure?

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by vodka jellyfish:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
True 'political correctness' is about the relationship between words and thoughts. We not only put our thoughts into words, we also think in certain ways over time because of the words we use. It's the second of those that gives political correctness its power and makes it quite desirable if used properly.

absolutely spot on deej - but sadly it works the other way as well...forcing us to think in a certain way by limiting the language we're allowed to use. orwell called it 'newspeak' as someone else said, it can end up causing resentment and ultimately do more harm than good

It's not like Orwell's Newspeak at all. There isn't a move to limit the dictionary, or reduce the total number of words, or remove nuance by getting rid of synonyms and antomyms. Orwell simply understood the power of words and the theory behind changing the way people think about stuff by changing labels, and put it into a totalitarian backdrop.

Political correctness is no more sinister really than, say, changing 'problems' in the workplace to 'challenges'. People laugh at that, including me, but I have no doubt it works to motivate people if used effectively. Problems are obstacles, challenges are opportunities to succeed. We still have the word 'problem' with all its synonyms and antonyms, of course.

When I was a kid, people used to call people in wheelchairs 'handicapped' probably without thinking about it and almost certainly without malice. Of course, wheelchair users are handicapped when presented with a set of stairs. They're probably no more handicapped than me though when sat at a desk using a computer. Yet I was defined by being normal and they were defined as being handicapped. That's not Orwellian newspeak to discourage people from seeing wheelchair users as 'the handicapped' and encouraging people to see beyond the wheelchair to what they are actually able to do. Negative to positive, you see.

quote:

Originally posted by vodka jellyfish:
i meant that political correctness has censored the language so much that's it's now only possible to voice one particular opinion. try to voice an independant opinion and you will tie yourself in knots tying to find the right words to express that opinion without sounding offensive

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by vodka jellyfish:
i meant that political correctness has censored the language so much that's it's now only possible to voice one particular opinion. try to voice an independant opinion and you will tie yourself in knots tying to find the right words to express that opinion without sounding offensive

You're talking just about race, and probably immigration in the UK, here right?

quote:

Originally posted by Rekaf:
your motives are good and in the examples ...problems to challenges...works very well when in the seminar for company unity and its good in some instances but sometimes not so good in the real world. political correctness must be challenged like everything else...

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:


When I was a kid, people used to call people in wheelchairs 'handicapped' probably without thinking about it and almost certainly without malice. Of course, wheelchair users are handicapped when presented with a set of stairs. They're probably no more handicapped than me though when sat at a desk using a computer. Yet I was defined by being normal and they were defined as being handicapped. That's not Orwellian newspeak to discourage people from seeing wheelchair users as 'the handicapped' and encouraging people to see beyond the wheelchair to what they are actually able to do. Negative to positive, you see.

quote:

Originally posted by fracas:

quote:

Originally posted by Rekaf:
your motives are good and in the examples ...problems to challenges...works very well when in the seminar for company unity and its good in some instances but sometimes not so good in the real world. political correctness must be challenged like everything else...

Fabulous post

The road to hell is paved with good intentions