quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Suzi-Q:
I suppose I try to relate the same concept to people from other cultures. For me, they are first and foremost a person with personality traits and characteristics that I like.

To you, maybe. However, study after study over time shows that a CV with an ethnic name on it is significantly less likely to go further than the same CV with an indigenous British name on it. Strange, that.

And thast is why all the Indian Call centre employees always say, "This is Jane, I am calling on behalf of (some British company) even though it comes up on caller ID as Out of Area and they talk with a heavy accented Indian voice.

The point I am trying to make is that I feel it's bad to make concessions based on a person's background as it is to make concessions because they are from a certain background.

For me, if I dislike a person it's because I don't like their characteristics, not because of the colour of their skin.

quote:

Originally posted by ѕρι∂єямσηкєγ:
I bet he's made a few enemies among the viewers tonight.

Thoroughly entertaining though. One of the few occasions in BB10 when I found myself laughing out loud.

He will have gained far more fans than any number of enemies he may have made. He was brilliant!

quote:

Originally posted by Suzi-Q:
The point I am trying to make is that I feel it's bad to make concessions based on a person's background as it is to make concessions because they are from a certain background.

I'm not sure I get that. Do you mean you think it is as bad to make concessions because of a person's background as it is to discriminate because of a person's background?

In the disability example, we could say that if there are only steps into workplaces or shops then it's tough shit for wheelchair users and they will have to get by without working in or visiting those buildings. Alternatively, we could give the whole group concessions by forcing companies and shops to pay for and make special allowances for wheelchair access. The first is simply not caring whether the wheelchair user might encounter problems that most people don't have to cope with. The second is about encouraging equality of access, not just to buildings but to an everyday life the rest of us enjoy.

I think there's a parallel between the ethnic minority case and the disability case.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
True 'political correctness' is about the relationship between words and thoughts. We not only put our thoughts into words, we also think in certain ways over time because of the words we use. It's the second of those that gives political correctness its power and makes it quite desirable if used properly.

For instance, describing someone as 'disabled' is making an implicit and potentially wide-reaching distinction between 'normal' people and 'disabled' people. Their particular disability might simply be that they can't walk very far.

I would much prefer to describe myself as disabled rather than saying "I have a disablity". I don't mind anyone else calling me disabled either and I will be the first to say I am not "normal" as I have no idea what "normal" is!

quote:

Originally posted by *BB*:
I would much prefer to describe myself as disabled rather than saying "I have a disablity".

Why?

Sorry, but he sounded like a defensive, aggressive tosser, to me.

He has picked on Sree constantly, belittling him at every chance, especially when the tasks arrived, and he doesn't expect Sree to be offended by his ridiculing of his accent?

I remember the days before PC and it wasn't pretty. I could never defend the current backlash.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by *BB*:
I would much prefer to describe myself as disabled rather than saying "I have a disablity".

Why?

Two reasons. The first being it's quicker to say disabled and believe me I have to tell people this on many occasions, usually over the telephone and it gets tiresome, and the second reason is if I say I have a disability most people always reply with the question "what is your disability?" and want to know my medical history when they really don't need to know. But I really dislike the term "disabled" being used in the context of - disabled parking space, disabled toilet etc, as they are not disabled. They are there for the use of the disabled.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
True 'political correctness' is about the relationship between words and thoughts. We not only put our thoughts into words, we also think in certain ways over time because of the words we use. It's the second of those that gives political correctness its power and makes it quite desirable if used properly.

For instance, describing someone as 'disabled' is making an implicit and potentially wide-reaching distinction between 'normal' people and 'disabled' people. Their particular disability might simply be that they can't walk very far.

But if you changed "disabled" to "physically challenged" or some other word or phrase, then that new phrase takes the place of the old one, and becomes just as encumbered with connotations. The PC brigade don't seem to understand that.

quote:

Originally posted by electric6:
I'm PC to the point of annoyingness and I think Marcus was right.

Oh no, do I have to hand my badge in?

So am I usually but BB was so wrong there.

quote:

Originally posted by jennywren:
But if you changed "disabled" to "physically challenged" or some other word or phrase, then that new phrase takes the place of the old one, and becomes just as encumbered with connotations. The PC brigade don't seem to understand that.

Again, who exactly are the PC Brigade?

Take the label 'coloured' as an example of a word which is now out of favour. The reason it is out of favour, I believe, is because it implies two groupings in the UK: white, and everyone else who is not white. Seeing certain people as being from the 'coloured' group simply encourages a focus on their being not-white irrespective of someone being an East Africa Indian, which is very different from an Indian national, which is very different from a Trinidadian, which is very different from a Jamaican even though Trinidadians and Jamaicans are both from the Caribbean.

Do you understand why it is better to identify someone from their ethnic origins, if indeed a difference needs to be noted at all, than their simply not being white? I do. And I recognise that a 'Ugandan Indian' as a term does not end up being encumbered with the same connotations as 'coloured'.

quote:

Originally posted by jennywren:
But if you changed "disabled" to "physically challenged" or some other word or phrase, then that new phrase takes the place of the old one, and becomes just as encumbered with connotations. The PC brigade don't seem to understand that.

Yes, I think they do. It will be a constant battle, until people understand why PC exists and what it is all about - which may be never, sadly.

I think they just think it's wrong to use these words to attack or demean others. We used to use the word Spastic, but the use of the word became a term of ridicule or aggression and so Cerebral Palsy replaced it. Still it seems that the word has been creeping back into use, mainly by those who don't remember those days.

If you complain, people will describe it as PC gone mad.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Suzi-Q:
Perhaps someone could explain to me what the "PC Brigade" is?

I hear it touted all the time on this forum, but have never understood what it means.

It's a term often used by closet or unconscious racists who regret that they can't speak their mind openly in polite society anymore, in my experience anyway.

yes in my experience too Daniel ...well put

Rodrigo seemed to understand Sree's point of view.

quote:

Originally posted by Blizzie:

quote:

Originally posted by jennywren:
But if you changed "disabled" to "physically challenged" or some other word or phrase, then that new phrase takes the place of the old one, and becomes just as encumbered with connotations. The PC brigade don't seem to understand that.

Yes, I think they do. It will be a constant battle, until people understand why PC exists and what it is all about - which may be never, sadly.

I think they just think it's wrong to use these words to attack or demean others. We used to use the word Spastic, but the use of the word became a term of ridicule or aggression and so Cerebral Palsy replaced it. Still it seems that the word has been creeping back into use, mainly by those who don't remember those days.

If you complain, people will describe it as PC gone mad.

I have never heard the word disabled used in the same nasty way spastic was. I think this is where people get annoyed at PC going too far. I mean you have to have a word to cover a group of people who need to have parking spaces and ease of access to buildings etc. Otherwise the language just breaks down to stupidity the word "special" already has negative connotations because of people trying too hard like this.

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
I have never heard the word disabled used in the same nasty way spastic was. I think this is where people get annoyed at PC going too far. I mean you have to have a word to cover a group of people who need to have parking spaces and ease of access to buildings etc. Otherwise the language just breaks down to stupidity the word "special" already has negative connotations because of people trying too hard like this.

I'm not saying that it can't go too far and get silly and confusing, but the backlash seems to include all PC, not just the silly examples.

If people can think more carefully about what they say and how it could offend, then that's a good thing all round. No need to go from one extreme to another.

PC to me is very subjective. To me, context is everything, and sensitivity should be applied dependant on situation. Being too sensitive can actually put a maginifying glass to something that just isn't there, and can cause real divison and is completely destructive. PC'ness should be applied with common sense.

I am pretty un pc when it comes to humour, but I know there are always some boundaries and common sense should be applied on how far those boundaries can be pushed.

For example, calling someone an offensive name that has historical negative connotations is unacceptable. Using language or physicality to make a section of society inferior because of their race, age, class, gender, religious belief or sexuality is un pc.

With regard to Marcus, I am absolutely behind his stance, he was right to challenge as there was no discriminatory malice behind his actions and I would have been deeply offended if I was him to be covertly accused of such. Go Marcus.

quote:

Originally posted by Blizzie:

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
I have never heard the word disabled used in the same nasty way spastic was. I think this is where people get annoyed at PC going too far. I mean you have to have a word to cover a group of people who need to have parking spaces and ease of access to buildings etc. Otherwise the language just breaks down to stupidity the word "special" already has negative connotations because of people trying too hard like this.

I'm not saying that it can't go too far and get silly and confusing, but the backlash seems to include all PC, not just the silly examples.

If people can think more carefully about what they say and how it could offend, then that's a good thing all round. No need to go from one extreme to another.

Yep I agree and for me BB went too far with it this time and leccy felt the same. If they really think mimicking an accent can be perceived as being racist then there are a hell of a lot of TV programmes they should take off the air right now. Starting with the Iranian comedian who I forget the name of.

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
I have never heard the word disabled used in the same nasty way spastic was. I think this is where people get annoyed at PC going too far. I mean you have to have a word to cover a group of people who need to have parking spaces and ease of access to buildings etc. Otherwise the language just breaks down to stupidity the word "special" already has negative connotations because of people trying too hard like this.

You also get strangers treating wheelchair users as stupid and talking to the people pushing the wheelchair about the person in the wheelchair as though they are not there. They're just 'disabled', whatever that means.

Parking spaces for the disabled are also interesting. Some people 'play the disabled card' and use the spaces to park even if they don't need the facility. Some people appear as though they have no disability and are abused for parking there when they do need it.

Ironically, people are becoming less sympathetic towards those blue badges because the media has highlighted cases of their abuse, especially in London. Echoes of the 'race card' there?

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
I have never heard the word disabled used in the same nasty way spastic was. I think this is where people get annoyed at PC going too far. I mean you have to have a word to cover a group of people who need to have parking spaces and ease of access to buildings etc. Otherwise the language just breaks down to stupidity the word "special" already has negative connotations because of people trying too hard like this.

You also get strangers treating wheelchair users as stupid and talking to the people pushing the wheelchair about the person in the wheelchair as though they were not there. They're just 'disabled', whatever that means.

Parking spaces for the disabled are also interesting. Some people 'play the disabled card' and use the spaces to park even if they don't need the facility. Some people appear as though they have no disability and are abused for parking there when they do need it.

Ironically, people are becoming less sympathetic towards those blue badges because the media has highlighted cases of their abuse, especially in London. Echoes of the 'race card' there?

Yep people are arseholes but changing the word disabled isnt going to stop some idiots thinking someone in a wheelchair is brain dead. Ive witnessed it myself when someone has spoken right over a person in a wheelchair to the person pushing it as if he wasnt there.

The badge thing needs to be policed better there was someone some people I know were complaining about having a disabled parking badge in their car. You know the kind of bitching why does he need that etc etc. He died last week of a horrific illness. Now they feel really shit.

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
Yep I agree and for me BB went too far with it this time and leccy felt the same. If they really think mimicking an accent can be perceived as being racist then there are a hell of a lot of TV programmes they should take off the air right now. Starting with the Iranian comedian who I forget the name of.

Their point was that it could be seen as offensive to different cultures. They never used the term racist.

And, as Sree and Rodrigo agreed, they don't mind jokey, or good humoured, references to their accents or abilities in speaking English. They both agreed that when done in anger, it does offend them.

quote:

Originally posted by Blizzie:

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
Yep I agree and for me BB went too far with it this time and leccy felt the same. If they really think mimicking an accent can be perceived as being racist then there are a hell of a lot of TV programmes they should take off the air right now. Starting with the Iranian comedian who I forget the name of.

Their point was that it could be seen as offensive to different cultures. They never used the term racist.

And, as Sree and Rodrigo agreed, they don't mind jokey, or good humoured, references to their accents or abilities in speaking English. They both agreed that when done in anger, it does offend them.

I know what words they used but we all know what they meant OK I shall use their own words then. Should they look at programmes they are broadcasting that may be seen as offensive to different cultures. Starting with any commedians that use different race accents in their act. Just to show where I am coming from here "Goodness gracious me" comes under that.

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
Yep people are arseholes but changing the word disabled isnt going to stop some idiots thinking someone in a wheelchair is brain dead. Ive witnessed it myself when someone has spoken right over a person in a wheelchair to the person pushing it as if he wasnt there.

I think the 'disabled' label is on the edge of what is sensible to change, myself. However, I think the general approach is sound. In that case, being wheelchair-bound may simply mean that a company has to make provision for access to the building and perhaps a height-adjustable desk. Yet they are 'disabled' whereas an 'able-bodied' person, that is a 'normal' person in terms of disability, may suffer from depression for a couple of months or have severe migraines periodically and no-one thinks of them as 'disabled'. They're all, silly though it sounds, just 'differently abled' and this is just the sort of thing I was talking about when I said words (or labels) influence the way we think about stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
Yep people are arseholes but changing the word disabled isnt going to stop some idiots thinking someone in a wheelchair is brain dead. Ive witnessed it myself when someone has spoken right over a person in a wheelchair to the person pushing it as if he wasnt there.

I think the 'disabled' label is on the edge of what is sensible to change, myself. However, I think the general approach is sound. In that case, being wheelchair-bound may simply mean that a company has to make provision for access to the building and perhaps a height-adjustable desk. Yet they are 'disabled' whereas an 'able-bodied' person, that is a 'normal' person in terms of disability, may suffer from depression for a couple of months or have severe migraines periodically and no-one thinks of them as 'disabled'. They're all, silly though it sounds, just 'differently abled' and this is just the sort of thing I was talking about when I said words (or labels) influence the way we think about stuff.

Wheelchair bound doesnt cover it i am afraid because not everyone who needs special access is in a wheelchair and then the general public will think he hasnt got a wheelchair why is he parking there...and so we go on. Unless you want a sign that covers every single qualifying condition. Words are how we express what we think they dont influence us. Nasty ignorant people will still find a way of being so even if you took away every insulting word in the language.

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
I know what words they used but we all know what they meant OK I shall use their own words then. Should they look at programmes they are broadcasting that may be seen as offensive to different cultures. Starting with any commedians that use different race accents in their act. Just to show where I am coming from here "Goodness gracious me" comes under that.

You mean British Asian actors making fun of their own culture?

That could be going too far. I know that listening to Jim Davidson doing his Chalky impression gave a totally different vibe to Lenny Henry doing his Uncle Thingummy accent!

quote:

Originally posted by Blizzie:

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
I know what words they used but we all know what they meant OK I shall use their own words then. Should they look at programmes they are broadcasting that may be seen as offensive to different cultures. Starting with any commedians that use different race accents in their act. Just to show where I am coming from here "Goodness gracious me" comes under that.

You mean British Asian actors making fun of their own culture?

That could be going too far. I know that listening to Jim Davidson doing his Chalky impression gave a totally different vibe to Lenny Henry doing his Uncle Thingummy accent!

No they used our cultural accents as well. There is no reason why they shouldnt either BTW. The curry restaurant being one of my favourite sketches ever.

Edit to add you hit the nail on the head there its the vibe and what is behind what is being said that is more important.

We seem to be getting caught up in the 'disabled', 'differently abled' etc. argument.

The equivalent to this in Sree's case, is Marcus having an argument with someone with Cerebral Palsy and trying to score points by copying their movements to ridicule them.

I'm not sure how that couldn't be seen as offensive.

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
No they used our cultural accents as well. There is no reason why they shouldnt either BTW. The curry restaurant being one of my favourite sketches ever.

Edit to add you hit the nail on the head there its the vibe and what is behind what is being said that is more important.

I love the 'Going for an English' sketch.

But surely the humour came from reversing a situation we've all seen, where ignorant twonks think it is OK to laugh at the waiter's accent and treat them like dirt?

Imo i think PC has gone way too far, i was talking about this with a friend a wee while back, When u call for a chinease take away does anyone else refer to it in a shorter term and wondered if chinease people see that as an insult for examle i've sometimes been called scottie or haggis from friends and family and also others i've met around the uk and don't take any offence to it just curious to what others think

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
Words are how we express what we think they dont influence us. Nasty ignorant people will still find a way of being so even if you took away every insulting word in the language.

I complete disagree with the first sentence and there's a special branch in philosophy of the mind that deals with exactly that.

The second bit is true but that's where the PC brigade, which no-one seems inclined or perhaps able to identify, comes in. It takes a while for themes to embed themselves in the collective consciousness but we're not seeing "No blacks, no dogs, no Irish" outside B&Bs anymore when at one time that was seen as quite acceptable.

quote:

Originally posted by VelvetHaze:
Imo i think PC has gone way too far, i was talking about this with a friend a wee while back, When u call for a chinease take away does anyone else refer to it in a shorter term and wondered if chinease people see that as an insult for examle i've sometimes been called scottie or haggis from friends and family and also others i've met around the uk and don't take any offence to it just curious to what others think

I think there's affection, and then there's aggression.

Marcus wasn't being affectionate!

quote:

Originally posted by Blizzie:

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
No they used our cultural accents as well. There is no reason why they shouldnt either BTW. The curry restaurant being one of my favourite sketches ever.

Edit to add you hit the nail on the head there its the vibe and what is behind what is being said that is more important.

I love the 'Going for an English' sketch.

But surely the humour came from reversing a situation we've all seen, where ignorant twonks think it is OK to laugh at the waiter's accent and treat them like dirt?

Exactly which is why you can go too far with PC and races and accents and mimicing each other. Its better to focus on the reasons behind it. ie. being really funny and showing ignorant people up .

BB just got this horribly wrong IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
Words are how we express what we think they dont influence us. Nasty ignorant people will still find a way of being so even if you took away every insulting word in the language.

I complete disagree with the first sentence and there's a special branch in philosophy of the mind that deals with exactly that.

The second bit is true but that's where the PC brigade, which no-one seems inclined or perhaps able to identify, comes in. It takes a while for themes to embed themselves in the collective consciousness but we're not seeing "No blacks, no dogs, no Irish" outside B&Bs anymore when at one time that was seen as quite acceptable.

I mean they dont influence us in the way you described. Of course reading and education can influence us but having a word for disabled isnt going to turn clever people into ignorant idiots who talk over people in wheelchairs.

As for signs like that I would say that the majority of us have never found it acceptable but we have finally been able to force these people not to show it openly and think everyone supports them. Its taken a long time and we have seen it again when a lot of Polish came over. I certainly liked it as I can now buy some of the german meats and polish beer . We still have a ways to go.

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
BB just got this horribly wrong IMO.

I'm not so sure they did. Afterall, they've overplayed their part which is much better than underplaying it. Especially as far as Ofcom and the Sun are concerned. A win-win situation as they've been seen to take it seriously after the Shilpa incident, and Marcus hasn't been stitched up with a racist label.

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
I mean they dont influence us in the way you described. Of course reading and education can influence us but having a word for disabled isnt going to turn clever people into ignorant idiots who talk over people in wheelchairs.

How about making the term 'coloured' an un-PC thing to say and labeling each ethnic minority group distinctly? Has that perhaps helped shift the collective consciousness from the attitudes of the 1960s and 1970s, where the UK was a white society with newly arrived 'coloured', to the multi-cultural attitudes we have today?

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
BB just got this horribly wrong IMO.

I'm not so sure they did. Afterall, they've overplayed their part which is much better than underplaying it. Especially as far as Ofcom and the Sun are concerned. A win-win situation as they've been seen to take it seriously after the Shilpa incident, and Marcus hasn't been stitched up with a racist label.

I meant the BB person for the first conversation. I dont think he should ever have been called up on that mimicking. The other bit "ill see you outside" etc yes. They could have just shown none of it so I dont think they care what the Sun thinks. The editing as a whole for the programme was good because it enabled us to make up our own minds on it. I just hope there wasnt worse that was cut out or anything like that but we wont know because we dont have LF.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
I mean they dont influence us in the way you described. Of course reading and education can influence us but having a word for disabled isnt going to turn clever people into ignorant idiots who talk over people in wheelchairs.

How about making the term 'coloured' an un-PC thing to say and labeling each ethnic minority group distinctly? Has that perhaps helped shift the collective consciousness from the attitudes of the 1960s and 1970s, where the UK was a white society with newly arrived 'coloured', to the multi-cultural attitudes we have today?

You misunderstand where "coloured" came from it was always derogatory in South Africa to label a child of mixed race. Because at the time there were so few of them. It wasnt applied to blacks or whites or Indian in South Africa. It was used incorrectly over here for a number of years by people who didnt know any better and and thankfully stopped being used. It was the peoples attitude to mixed race that made coloured derogatory not the word influencing us.

As Chris Rock says in a few generations we will all be brown and there wont be a problem anymore.

Anyway thanks Daniel and Blizzie for a good convo.

Till the next show...got to go now .

quote:

You misunderstand where "coloured" came from it was always derogatory in South Africa to label a child of mixed race. Because at the time there were so few of them. It wasnt applied to blacks or whites or Indian in South Africa. It was used incorrectly over here for a number of years by people who didnt know any better and and thankfully stopped being used. It was the peoples attitude to mixed race that made coloured derogatory not the word influencing us.

As Chris Rock says in a few generations we will all be brown and there wont be a problem anymore.

Quite a number of people still use the term coloured here in the west highlands.

Does Chris Rock ride a horse?

quote:

Originally posted by CaptVimes:
Anyway thanks Daniel and Blizzie for a good convo.

Till the next show...got to go now .

Aww, I had to go and pick up my slightly sozzled son!

Just a couple of points, if you read this tomorrow -

'Coloureds' in South Africa were mixed race, but had a higher status than Blicks (yes, I feel allowed to make a bit of fun of the Sarf Ifricaan accent! ), under Apartheid.

And, my point about the 'Going for an English' sketch, was that it was making fun of people like Marcus, who thought it was OK to treat others as inferior and make fun of their accents.

I think BB had every right to pull him up on it, as it was not done in humour, or affectionately.

Thanks for the discussion though.