quote:

Originally posted by Mummy Maz:
i've just watched a very interesting portugese documentary about it all, it was headed by the guy who was in charge of the investigation over there (before they dismissed him for some reason?) - anyways he thinks she's dead - he provides some interesting facts actually esp the 2 dogs who have never ever been wrong in sensing a 'cadaver' (dead body) and went mental in the apartment - to be precise in the parents Wardrobe and behind the sofa... not to mention the car they hired...

ohhh that sounds like a intresting program would have liked to have seen that.....

quote:

Originally posted by Comrade Ogilvy:
Then there's their story of gross neglect expressed as if it were the most natural thing in the world, which just seemed to me like a badly constructed alibi.

Or parents in denial about their cockup. I've seen loads of people trying to downplay their responsibility for stuff that has gone wrong. Not because they're avoiding punishment as such but because they don't want to think they're culpable.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Comrade Ogilvy:
Then there's their story of gross neglect expressed as if it were the most natural thing in the world, which just seemed to me like a badly constructed alibi.

Or parents in denial about their cockup. I've seen loads of people trying to downplay their responsibility for stuff that has gone wrong. Not because they're avoiding punishment as such but because they don't want to think they're culpable.

I'm not saying that's impossible, they've always seemed very composed though haven't they ?

Just adding my two-penneth worth! No theories/claims about what happened to Madeline have been sufficiently proven or disproven, so anything is still possible. Hence we will all have our personal opinions based on what we have seen/read/heard/attributed to individuals' presentation and behaviour, simple fact is none of us know for sure, so seems to me all theories are still up for grabs! Accidental death, Murder, Manslaughter, Abduction etc. who knows?
Re the neglect isssue, and, for what it's worth, I personally consider what they did was neglectful, but guess that's less important than the law and interpretation of it! English law (Children and Young Persons Act 1933) says that parents can be prosecuted for wilful[/B neglect if they leave a child alone or unsupervised in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering or injury to health (can lead to up to 10 yrs imprisonment.). However as the potential 'offence' was committed in Portugal, Portugese law applies, my understanding is that their law is very similair and intent needs to apply. I understand that the Portugese authorities did consider charges of neglect/abandonment and they were never brought- presumably because they didn't feel that their was sufficient evidence/it would be succesfully defended given the alleged regular checking and proximity to the apartment?
With regard to the issue of the siblings being subject to a child protection plan,(formerly known as on the at risk /child protection register) then, under current legislation, this will only happen if the children are considered to be at [B]continuing risk of significant harm. So, for example, if parents are considered to have 'learnt from their mistakes' and vow never to leave their children unsupervised again, then they would not be subject to a child protection plan and there would be no involvement from Children's social care (formerly known as Social Services.)

oops, only the word wilful was supposed to be in bold in my previous post!

[URL=http://blip.tv/file/2036418 ]An other view...[/URL]

Hi guys, for anyone that would wanna see this i've posted the link - its 50 minutes so its not short! I found it really interesting though, especially the dogs...Its in portuagese but is subtitled....

quote:

Originally posted by Comrade Ogilvy:
I'm not saying that's impossible, they've always seemed very composed though haven't they ?

Some people are. They're also medical staff and she's a doctor so presumably she's done a stint in a hospital on the front line too. I guess people learn to construct a professional face in jobs like that.

quote:

Originally posted by Supercalifragilistic:
simple fact is none of us know for sure, so seems to me all theories are still up for grabs! Accidental death, Murder, Manslaughter, Abduction etc. who knows?

Well, that's true but I doubt most of us have all the facts and I'm pretty sure none of us has attended all the interviews of the people involved. Hence, they're hypotheses and speculation rather than theories and in many cases probably outright rubbish if they're relying on tabloid 'facts'.

quote:

Originally posted by Mummy Maz:
[URL=http://blip.tv/file/2036418 ]An other view...[/URL]

Hi guys, for anyone that would wanna see this i've posted the link - its 50 minutes so its not short! I found it really interesting though, especially the dogs...Its in portuagese but is subtitled....

I have heard about this docu - its been blocked from being shown here apparently (makes u wonder why)?? I could be wrong, but I think its a Sky programme - and Sky have been told NOT to show it over here?

working now?

if this doesnt work i give up!!

I am disgusted and appalled by the attitude and behaviour of the Portuguese police, media and even some of the Portuguese people. They gave up so quickly in their investigations and now it's as if they want to brush the whole incident under the carpet and pretend it never happened.

When I saw holiday programmes of Portugal I thought what a beautiful country, but now I doubt I'll ever set foot in the place and judging by what was said on the programme it looks like a lot of people think the same way.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Comrade Ogilvy:
I'm not saying that's impossible, they've always seemed very composed though haven't they ?

Some people are. They're also medical staff and she's a doctor so presumably she's done a stint in a hospital on the front line too. I guess people learn to construct a professional face in jobs like that.

In a professional setting yes but we're talking about one of the most extreme personal crisis' that can befall a person. In such circumstances I'd expect even the most hardened professional to be upset.

Just my opinion and not arguing with you Daniel, just debating. hope that's understood.

quote:

Originally posted by Mummy Maz:
working now?

if this doesnt work i give up!!

Works for me.

Not had a chance to watch it yet but I intend to now.

quote:

Originally posted by BARMY BRUMMIE:

I have heard about this docu - its been blocked from being shown here apparently (makes u wonder why)?? I could be wrong, but I think its a Sky programme - and Sky have been told NOT to show it over here?

Yes it says on the site "censored in the UK" which does raise the question.. why ?

Why are we only being fed the McCains side of the story ?

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Supercalifragilistic:
simple fact is none of us know for sure, so seems to me all theories are still up for grabs! Accidental death, Murder, Manslaughter, Abduction etc. who knows?

Well, that's true but I doubt most of us have all the facts and I'm pretty sure none of us has attended all the interviews of the people involved. Hence, they're hypotheses and speculation rather than theories and in many cases probably outright rubbish if they're relying on tabloid 'facts'.

Don't think we disagree in the main...but.... testing hypotheses is what gets crimes solved!

quote:

Originally posted by paace:
I am disgusted and appalled by the attitude and behaviour of the Portuguese police, media and even some of the Portuguese people. They gave up so quickly in their investigations and now it's as if they want to brush the whole incident under the carpet and pretend it never happened.

When I saw holiday programmes of Portugal I thought what a beautiful country, but now I doubt I'll ever set foot in the place and judging by what was said on the programme it looks like a lot of people think the same way.

its like everything else tho life goes on they have there own stuff to deal with they have children from there own country going mising that wernt and havent been given as much media or police coverage.....i have alwasy found the portugesse to be a good people but like every country there are good and bad......i honestly dont think they gave up quickly they have there way of doing things it may well not be our way but you cant go into anothers country and insist they do it how you like it to be done....but how long can they keep this at the top of there pile when they have other things of equal importance to them to deal with....

quote:

Originally posted by Comrade Ogilvy:

In a professional setting yes but we're talking about one of the most extreme personal crisis' that can befall a person. In such circumstances I'd expect even the most hardened professional to be upset.

Just my opinion and not arguing with you Daniel, just debating. hope that's understood.

I know that they were advised by the 'experts' to try not to show any emotion on camera.

I saw shock, grief, sadness and fear. I don't think they needed to throw themselves on the ground weeping and wailing to show how they felt.

didn't anyone else hear that jane tanner, during the reconstruction, saying she saw gerry talking to someone outside the apartment and that kate was annoyed how long he was taking *going to check on the children*

quote:

Originally posted by Aimee:
didn't anyone else hear that jane tanner, during the reconstruction, saying she saw gerry talking to someone outside the apartment and that kate was annoyed how long he was taking *going to check on the children*

Yes, she thought he was watching the football, or something.

quote:

Originally posted by Mummy Maz:
working now?

if this doesnt work i give up!!

Thanks for that - I just watched it.

Some interesting points made

Even though the guy is trying to sell his book

quote:

Originally posted by Trevpuss:
Thanks for that - I just watched it.

Some interesting points made

Even though the guy is trying to sell his book

Indeed!

I'd be interested in his theory of how they kept a body for 23 days, when they supposedly used the hire car to transport it somewhere else, under the full glare of journalists!

quote:

Originally posted by Blizzie:

quote:

Originally posted by Trevpuss:
Thanks for that - I just watched it.

Some interesting points made

Even though the guy is trying to sell his book

Indeed!

I'd be interested in his theory of how they kept a body for 23 days, when they supposedly used the hire car to transport it somewhere else, under the full glare of journalists!

Uh huh

I have no opinion on the subject - it's safer that way

quote:

Originally posted by Trevpuss:

quote:

Originally posted by Mummy Maz:
working now?

if this doesnt work i give up!!

Thanks for that - I just watched it.

Some interesting points made

Even though the guy is trying to sell his book

Well I can't blame him for writing the book, it must have been very frustrating for him. The evidence all points towards the McCann parents but not only have they evaded justice but have got rich off the back of it.

My only question is, who the hell did the McCanns know ???

Not only did they have the media present (and onside) from the offset but they managed to effectively shut down Concalo Amarals investigation.

I challenge anyone to watch this documentary and still believe the McCanns BS alibi.

quote:

Originally posted by Comrade Ogilvy:

quote:

Originally posted by Trevpuss:

quote:

Originally posted by Mummy Maz:
working now?

if this doesnt work i give up!!

Thanks for that - I just watched it.

Some interesting points made

Even though the guy is trying to sell his book

Well I can't blame him for writing the book, it must have been very frustrating for him. The evidence all points towards the McCann parents but not only have they evaded justice but have got rich off the back of it.

My only question is, who the hell did the McCanns know ???

Not only did they have the media present (and onside) from the offset but they managed to effectively shut down Concalo Amarals investigation.

I challenge anyone to watch this documentary and still believe the McCanns BS alibi.

I think there are flaws in all theories, but the dogs were kinda convincing.

And yes, it was odd the was the investigation was closed so quickly...

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Comrade Ogilvy:
I'm not saying that's impossible, they've always seemed very composed though haven't they ?

Some people are. They're also medical staff and she's a doctor so presumably she's done a stint in a hospital on the front line too. I guess people learn to construct a professional face in jobs like that.

Well yes you DO have to conduct yourself in a professional manner in the public sector.And you DO learn to become a pretty accomplshed actor in so much as you have to leave the problems of the day behind on your way in,but as good as I am at keeping a cool head dealing with other peoples children,I panic immediately if something happens to any of mine.I've no idea how they manage to repress their emotions so well..maybe they felt guilty about expressing any regret/remorse.

quote:

Originally posted by fracas:

quote:

Originally posted by BARMY BRUMMIE:
oh ok - my mistake.... so they set up that Maddie website - not asking for donations.... silly me....

Correctamundo, and do you know they were selling 'missing' posters. Yes, that's right, selling them. That took my breath away when I saw that

I remember seeing that

Just watched it- can someone clarify please, am sure I read somewhere that the McCanns left the door open, but part of the 'evidence' seemed to be around an assumption that the door was locked

quote:

Originally posted by Mazzystar:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Comrade Ogilvy:
I'm not saying that's impossible, they've always seemed very composed though haven't they ?

Some people are. They're also medical staff and she's a doctor so presumably she's done a stint in a hospital on the front line too. I guess people learn to construct a professional face in jobs like that.

Well yes you DO have to conduct yourself in a professional manner in the public sector.And you DO learn to become a pretty accomplshed actor in so much as you have to leave the problems of the day behind on your way in,but as good as I am at keeping a cool head dealing with other peoples children,I panic immediately if something happens to any of mine.I've no idea how they manage to repress their emotions so well..maybe they felt guilty about expressing any regret/remorse.

I find it hard to believe that any parent can hide their own emotions when it is their own child..putting on a professional front when something personal and tragic happens in your life does not even come into it in my eyes..just an observation, were they showing the stiff upper lip or were they acting from the start..? I have no opinion what is right or wrong with this case as its a bit to close to home for my liking and I do try to keep out of threads like this one, but its a very good readable thread and I am only human

Even if all interested in this case don't want to watch the whole evidence packed documentary at least watch the part with the dogs please at 23:30

quote:

Originally posted by Supercalifragilistic:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
Well, that's true but I doubt most of us have all the facts and I'm pretty sure none of us has attended all the interviews of the people involved. Hence, they're hypotheses and speculation rather than theories and in many cases probably outright rubbish if they're relying on tabloid 'facts'.

Don't think we disagree in the main...but.... testing hypotheses is what gets crimes solved!

What I'm trying to say is that we can't test a hypothesis ourselves to create a theory - that is, a plausible explanation which fits all the facts - if we don't have all the facts. Actually, it's worse than that as we don't have all the facts and we probably have all sorts of rubbish from the media masquerading as facts.

It's fine to speculate of course but the McCanns are real people with real lives and they've lost a child. There's a difference between keeping an open mind whilst speculating, and throwing all sorts of mud at these people as some are wont to do. It has an impact on them, I'm sure.

The police have all the facts they have managed to acquire and they haven't prosecuted so far. They're in a much better position than we are to solve the crime.

quote:

Originally posted by Comrade Ogilvy:
Even if all interested in this case don't want to watch the whole evidence packed documentary at least watch the part with the dogs please at 23:30

where is it being shown?

OK ... call me devil's advocate...

The thing is...do any of us know how we would react in the same circumstances?

Anyone remember the murder of Peter Falconio many years back and the absolute hounding his OH, Joanne Lees had because she seemed so constrained?

A man is now in prison for his murder and it's clear Joanne was deeply traumatised.

By nature I am (in RL anyway ) a very private person. But my children are my be all and end all. Having said that I can't say how I'd react. Would my emotions take free flight (well they would but I'm talking about emoting in public) or would I return to my default setting in public?

And don't forget they have two babes at home.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Supercalifragilistic:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
Well, that's true but I doubt most of us have all the facts and I'm pretty sure none of us has attended all the interviews of the people involved. Hence, they're hypotheses and speculation rather than theories and in many cases probably outright rubbish if they're relying on tabloid 'facts'.

Don't think we disagree in the main...but.... testing hypotheses is what gets crimes solved!

What I'm trying to say is that we can't test a hypothesis ourselves to create a theory - that is, a plausible explanation which fits all the facts - if we don't have all the facts. Actually, it's worse than that as we don't have all the facts and we probably have all sorts of rubbish from the media masquerading as facts.

It's fine to speculate of course but the McCanns are real people with real lives and they've lost a child. There's a difference between keeping an open mind whilst speculating, and throwing all sorts of mud at these people as some are wont to do. It has an impact on them, I'm sure.

The police have all the facts they have managed to acquire and they haven't prosecuted so far. They're in a much better position than we are to solve the crime.

Yes bcause the McCanns had the investigation dropped when Concalo Amaral and his team where coming to the only logical conclussion... that they McCanns were implicated.

quote:

Originally posted by Blizzie:
I'd be interested in his theory of how they kept a body for 23 days, when they supposedly used the hire car to transport it somewhere else, under the full glare of journalists!

In the church of course!! Well, that's what everyone was saying at the time .. the time being, coincidentally, when there was lots of footage of the McCanns going to the church for services.

quote:

Originally posted by Comrade Ogilvy:
Yes bcause the McCanns had the investigation dropped when Concalo Amaral and his team where coming to the only logical conclussion... that they McCanns were implicated.

Is that the only logical conclusion?

quote:

Originally posted by Bagel Queen:

quote:

Originally posted by Comrade Ogilvy:
Even if all interested in this case don't want to watch the whole evidence packed documentary at least watch the part with the dogs please at 23:30

where is it being shown?

Hello,

You can watch it here.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Comrade Ogilvy:
Yes bcause the McCanns had the investigation dropped when Concalo Amaral and his team where coming to the only logical conclussion... that they McCanns were implicated.

Is that the only logical conclusion?

Before I wasn't sure but having watched This documentary I'd have to say.. pretty much so, yes.

It'd take an awful lot to convince me otherwise now.

I can only refer to what I said just up there about facts ^^^

Arse.

quote:

Originally posted by Cariad:
OK ... call me devil's advocate...

The thing is...do any of us know how we would react in the same circumstances?

Anyone remember the murder of Peter Falconio many years back and the absolute hounding his OH, Joanne Lees had because she seemed so constrained?

A man is now in prison for his murder and it's clear Joanne was deeply traumatised.

By nature I am (in RL anyway ) a very private person. But my children are my be all and end all. Having said that I can't say how I'd react. Would my emotions take free flight (well they would but I'm talking about emoting in public) or would I return to my default setting in public?

And don't forget they have two babes at home.

From what I remember of the Joanne Lees thing, it was a matter of the NT police grabbing at straws so they could be seen to be effective. I also seem to recall, she was cheating on PF prior to the trip so I don't believe her emotional response would be anywhere near that of a distraught parent.