Yes dear, sort of. It's complicated football stuff, not for girls really. 

There are certain players who have transferred and will respected for the rest of their lives by Liverpool fans, eg Sami Hyypia, however one person who will never be welcome in front of the Kop is one Mr Michael Owen, if he was a real Kop hero he would never went in a ten mile radius of OT.

I sort of agree with you, RiverRock, but if the boot was on the other foot and Liverpool were too good for Gerrard, they'd dispose of him like a bag of s**t.
I do not think it is being disloyal if you give say 10 years or even just 5 years of playing for your beloved club to then move on to bigger and better things.
Fernando did it by leaving Atletico. Unfortunately for him he made a stupid decision by joining Liverpool.

I bet secretly Alan Shearer wishes he'd gone from Blackburn to Man U for even just 3 years before then going to Newcastle.

Ahem!!

I can see where you are coming from Crunchy and I understand what you are saying and agree with you in that sense, but from a personal point of view I think chasing success instead of trying to create is is wrong.

One thing that pisses me off no end is when people say Liverpool are doing so shite if they don't improve Gerrard/Torres will leave...that gets right on my tatas. Its as much their fault as anyone elses on the team it is not doing well, if Torres didn't spend half his season crocked (and getting paid for the privilege we might be going somewhere that does not resemble the relegation zone.

 im certain not all Liverpool fans have that view. Michael Owen isn't even born and bred Liverpool, he was born in Chester - his dad played for Everton. It's not as if he left Liverpool and went straight across to Manchester is it.
He was playing for Newcastle ffs, that's bad enough in its self,  then to top it off they'd just been relegated to the Championship. Only a total numbskull would have turned down Manchester United in his situation at the time.

You praise Carragher for being a born and bred Everton fan and then playing for Liverpool, then you criticise Michael Owen for signing for Manchester United 5 years afyer leaving Anfield.

But if you've created as much success as you're ever going to create at a particular place , i.e Gerrard at Liverpool (he;s never going to win anything else of note there), then sometimes you have to go elsewhere to have a better chance of being part of creating some success - if that makes sense.

You shut yer FASE I support England innit

No I didn't, I just said I have a lot of time for him, reread what I wrote.

That's a bit small-minded imo. You had his best years. I don't care that Joe Cole went to you (I thought he was a bit crap tbh   but like Crunchy says they go where they can get football. Players are players they're not fans. If they ever were fans it stops when they go pro.

Fair enough Niamh.

I do see your point of view about loyalty and players should be loyal to their home club, I just don't think it is disloyal to leave at some point and I think Michael would have jumped at the chance to return to Liverpool but Benitez clearly didn't want him. I think its harsh if he's hated by Liverpool fans just because he's joined United 5 years after leaving Liverpool.

On that we can agree. Specially Torres. Body language says 'wtf am I doing here?'. Stop paying him that might remind him why he's there.

I dig you Crunchy, but were from two different schools of though.  The only way I can try to explain it is look how much pride some footballers have playing in the colours of their country, some even cried at the national anthems etc. Spain team of 2010 will never be able to match that success, say they brought in a new thing were there was an international transfer market and players could be bought and sold like the premiership, for instance in 5 years time if spain haven't won anything or qualified for anything and David Villa got fed up of the lack of success and transferred to Brazil where they won 2 world cups in 4 years.

Which Victory do you think will mean more? Also would you praise villa for bailing out on his team when they needed him most just because he though he 'could do better elsewhere?'.

I know this is totally hypothetical but its the only way I can word this as I am trying to explain in a way how the gaelic works over here (and also probably a lot of sports in England such as amateur football, hockey etc) Also, not having any digs either just finding it an interesting debate

Not to mention slightly insane 

Funnily enough, I always thought that Alonso didn't get the credit he deserved in that team. It was always Gerrard and Torres, Gerrard and Torres, without Gerrard and Torres they are useless blah blah blah. Dont get me wrong, I think those 2 are vitally important when they are at their best, but I don't think Benitez anticipated quite how much they'd miss Alonso and that's what ultimately cost him last season.

I'll let you off then. Actually, I might not 

I understand what you're saying, Riverrock, but if everyone did that then there'd be no transfer movement what so ever.

Also, David Villa in a way has kind of done that. I know he didn't start at Valencia, but he gave 5 or 6 years to them, scored shed loads of goals, but decided enough is enough I want some club medals to show at the end of my career... hello Barcelona.

I just think with Gerrard is that it's a bit of a shame that someone like Carrick who I rate, but is not in the same class as Gerrard, is going to have way more to show at the end of his career.

Karma once had a pic of the Emirates on her facebook (might still be there i duno) with the caption underneath, something along the lines of... no i dont support them I support England.

I dunno why but it did make me giggle at the time

It's still there as is your comment, cheeky little sod I was at an expo at the Emirates and was offered a V.I.P tour of the grounds, couldn't be arsed. Dunno what all the fuss is about? It's just a big place with a green thing in the middle

Thats the point, there would be no transfer market!

If they ever do Idiot Abroad with a female you're 'it' 

That'd be crap though. It'd just be like international football then. Keep the 2 different I say.

I was talking hypothetically but! Thats when the football has gone to the shambles that it has because it is no longer about the game its is all about the background, and is essentially a business for which the fans who by the tickets are mere pawns of.

Hopeless despair 

And if they're ever looking for an idiot in the UK they've got one

I'm over-qualified apparently 

You know what they say, never believe your own press!

Blast from the past doesn't quite cover this. I'm in heaven lol.

I'd just like to say I'm a Liverpool fan (heaven help us at the moment!) and I certainly do not hate Michael Owen and never will. I couldn't undersatnd all the hatred when he went to RM - who would not turn down that sort of money? Also Rafa pushed him out as I understand it.

What's so funny Monkey?

Personally I'd rate Scholes as the best followed by Beckham, but Gerrard is right up there.

Beckham has alot of talent  

Scholes, Beckham and Bryan Robson. Gerrard is far too selfish a player to ever be considered one of the greats. Everything has to be all about him and he's happy to take pointless potshots rather than pass to someone in a better position. He looks good in a team like Liverpool. Put him in a team with better players and he's soon become anonymous.

Beckham one of the greats lol.

Crunchy, I basically feel pretty much what Prom has replied.
There is no doubt that Gerrard is a talented player, but one who I feel has settled. He's the star in that Liverpool squad and unfortunately he's never pushed his career or talents further than he's needed to. Shame really.

I'm a United fan so of course I'm going to say Scholes ahead of him, along with many more before I would ever come to Gerrard.

Let's not forget the talents of Beckham  

What a player! 

Agree

By virtue of the fact he is one of the only English players in the last decade who is capable of crossing the round white thing into that box where all the players are. And he takes amazing free kicks. People tend to hate Beckham so much as a person they forget that he's actually a very good footballer indeed.

He's got a right peg - as they say in the trade. There it ends