It's on the front page pf AOL too, seems he didn't take advantage of his second chance. Much more than Jamie Bulger got

The source said that the chances of Venables 'remaining undetected' whilst in prison were 'very small'.

'Hitherto there were only a handful of people involved in his care: a probation officer, a senior probation officer, a police officer and someone at the Ministry of Justice, plus Renton and his friend.'

 

Was this psychologist involved with the two families prior to the murder or is he just basing his opinion on the Venables and Thompson he has read about.

HAHA!!


Re the psychologist saying about their behaviour at age 8 I should imagine thats a retrospective view....cos had they been receiving psychological help at age 8 instead of being left to run feral then the murder would probaly not have taken place

it sounded  like he had experienced conversations or viewings of them, i only started to pay attention when what he was saying made me think again.
he was  a pof. at some  university.

Which is why they reckon it is a serious offence he has commited to make the decision to put him back inside....fella on the TV this Morning said the decision would not have been made lightly as every inmate in the COuntry would be 'waiting' for new arrivals to see if it is him....

Agree 100%. I doubt if either of them can ever be properly rehabilitated now, but that doesn't mean I can't feel a pang of pity - for James Bulger, but also for them, the two little boys they should have been, if they'd been taken in hand earlier.

http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/arti...documentid=152406718

A slightly surprising article for the Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...ed-James-Bulger.html

Thanks for that link Deej, an interesting article. I'm not sure I agree with some of the statements made but a good article anyway.
I also think this article which was linked from your page makes some good points
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/com...little-monsters.html

Does anyone remember Mary Bell and the horrific barbaric acts she carried out on the children she murdered?....I can't post a link on an article about her. http://www.members.tripod.com/...saWest/marybell.html

Hi Lee, yes she's mentioned in that article I linked to. What I do remember about her is that bliddy woman Geeta Sereny who wrote a book about her a long time after she was released from prison, going on about how she was a great mother etc etc etc.
Maybe she was but tbh I really had problems with aspects of the whole thing. I thought about the parents of the children she had murdered and how they must feel hearing all that. Plus the author apparently gave money to Mary Bell for her help with the book. Now correct me if I'm wrong but I though it was a basic rule of British Law that a convicted criminal is not allowed to profit from their crime.
Since then, whereever there is a case of kids murdering other kids, that bliddy woman is all over it - most likely thinking of her future book royalties.
I really cannot stand her

I managed to post the link Veggie but tbh halfway through reading I had to stop....It's beyond belief she or anyone was/is capable of such horrific things....Wasn't she granted lifetime anonymity as well?

Yeah she was Lee. I do have sympathy for the terrible abused lives that the perpetrators of these crimes had (one of the reasons I would charge the parents of very young children who commit vile crimes) but why should the other children be put at risk by releasing these people?
I think that the Justice system in this country needs to understand a basic rule regarding these cases (committed by adults not just kids). If your crime is so horrendous that you will need to be furnished with a completely new id to stop people attacking you when released then maybe your crime is so horrendous that you should never be released
Just a thought..........

There is no doubt about it that the horror factor is magnified by the fact that children carried out this crime ... and yes, the 20th century has seen many horrors and dispicable crimes ... but taken in context I do believe the murder of Jamie Bulger is one of the most shocking, horrifying murders of the 20th century ... and yes, compounded obviously by the fact that it was carried out by two 10 year-old children ...

That's what makes me so angry and sad - they had a chance to have a better education etc than they ever would have had back "at home" A tragedy.

I haven't managed to read through the whole thread ........and I'm not singling this pot out as a dig or poke or anything like that but .................................I knew at 10 years old what was right and wrong because it was instilled in me ..............my kids also knew because it was instilled in them. What happens if you have parents who don't give a flying f>>> about you and you are left to your own devices? What if no one teaches you right from wrong? I don't think we are born either 'good' or 'evil' ........................we have to be taught values and morals .........if there is no one giving it out - how do we learn?

Loved what Will Self said about it on Question Time.

Indeed, Soozy.

People forget that parenting and the environment you grow up in has such a huge effect. I also wonder what age people think should be the age of criminal responsibilty.

So did I greenandpink, unfortunately his views are in the minority.

Yes, alas Scotty...

I read a very interesting review about the book 'Cry's Unheard' the Mary Bell Case by Gitta Sereny.
Unfortunately the reviewer is anonymous, but raised a few points I'd not seen any tabloids bring up.

The furore that surrounded the publication of this book must have in part be due to the fact that it is likely to be used as salacious entertainment by the sort of sick people who are the protagonists. We read (towards the end of the book) of how before the murders Mary Bell was used in her mother's business as a prostitute. Men who liked strangling young girls were allowed to strangle her until she was unconscious. She did not die, she woke up again. It is unlikely that she would know that such experiments were highly dangerous and sometimes people did not wake up again. It is hardly surprising, therefore, that she tried similar experiments herself on other people with the tragic consequences everyone knows about.

Other reviewers have written about the book's demonstration of the flaws in the British legal system. Whether a criminal is an adult or a child, the only way we can seriously reduce crime is to investigate *why* crimes are committed. If the court in this case has made as thorough investigation as Gitta Sereny then it would have uncovered not an isolated evil person, but a whole system of evil in which the humans were just mere links. Punishing Bell and no one else is totally idiotic - those that were really responsible for initiating it all still go free.

Also shown by the book is the fact that this mass psychosis doesn't just involve men with peculiar desires visiting prostitutes, but all those who stand outside courtrooms in cases like this banging on police vehicles transporting the accused, or avidly read accounts of it in popular newspapers, or lapping it up in tv programmes whilst at the same time saying how appalling it all is.

The chain of evil also includes those officials and lawyers who made fee income from it, the prison officials and elected officials who persecuted Bell far beyond what was appropriate for someone of her age and circumstances. It also includes the British public, who as a whole encouraged the whole circus and in whose name the officials act.

We live in a world where a lord chief justice has had to resign because he was discovered with a prostitute. A member of the legislature died during an auto-erotic activity involving breathing control (I cannot recall whether it was actually strangulation). I know an ordinary family where a young man with apparently everything to live for and who was certainly not depressed apparently hanged himself. There are a vast number of crime novels and television films and so on about strangulation, blatantly presented as entertainment.

So in a way we are all "the sort of sick people" who are part of this awful event. However the book is a lesson to us all. If many people read it, it may brings us back from the slippery slope down to a fruitless cycle of violence and revenge and on to a system that really reduces crime, instead of just feeding on it.

Very interesting thread, and good to see that debate can be had on such a sensitive and emotive subject without it going into meltdown.

Initially (and for years afterwards), I had zero sympathy, empathy or tolerance for Thompson or Venables, or their parents, particularly any mentions of rehabilitation. I read what they did to that little boy, and especially after becoming a mum myself, my blood still boils and I feel physcially sick to my stomach remembering what that poor defenceless child had to endure at their hands. Only the Baby P case since has come close to how I feel about what happened to Jamie Bulger. My view was always 'blame the parents', especially after reading the lifestyles of said parents.

However since this new issue has come to light I have taken a few days to really think about it.I've seen and heard other's opinions both on the net and on the TV and radio, and have to say this thread by far is probably the most reasonable debate I've witnessed to date.

I put myself in the position of the parents.My son is nearly 12. And I thought to myself, 'if my son at aged 10 had been an accessory in a crime like that, how would I feel?' Of course it would depend on HIS opinion of what he did, whether he recognised that his actions were totally wrong, whether he was 'bullied' into participating, whether he had no remorse...etc. I don't know if any interviews with Thompson and Venables have ever been released when they were first charged - (can anyone link me if there is any info on this? Would be interesting to read).

However, it seems both had already been under a psychiatric assessment programme at an earlier age (8), so clearly there were enough 'warning bells' going off with both of them for them a couple of years before.

Without knowing the boy's views on what they did, (at the time and now, post-rehabilitation) it's difficult to give a fully informed opinion. But I do question why, when they were clearly known to 'the system' as having a mental disturbance, why these boys were not more closely monitored. Why they were even allowed to be friends, having both been the subject of a psychiatric evaluation, should our 'system' shoulder some responsibillty for this?

Maybe enough wasn't done at the time, maybe not enough time was taken with the boys to recognise and understand their issues and attempt the action of rehabilitation back then? Is 8 too young to rehabilitate? Personally, I don't think so. I believe that if it is the opinion of professionals that an 8 year old is showing signs to raise enough serious concern, then appropriate treatment should be administered, even if it means the child going away for a while to a secluded environment. If it was my son at that age, I would have fully supported the opinion and the advice being given to me, and as a mum, would have done whatever was within my power to try and help my child, even if the recommended treatment was hard to bear.

Are children 'born' evil? Hmmm. Children do develop personalities very quickly, and I don't believe babies are born with 'no' feeling (if you get what I mean) but how many times do you hear parents of adult convicts say 'they were angels when they young', (had never been in trouble, knew right from wrong, good education, model student etc).So it begs the question again, how much influence do parents really have over their childrens persona? The fact that Thompson and Venables were 10 and not 30 is what is most disturbing about the whole case, the fact that how could children do this to another child? Where did these thoughts come from? What had they been allowed to watch on TV to even know about some of the acts they committed on the child? (including leaving him on the train track to make it look like he had simply wandered off from mum, roamed on to the tracks and been run over - which in itself indicates that the boys, or at least one of them, were fully aware that what they did was wrong)

It's a really difficult argument, mainly because the media will give it's own view and is such an influence on our thoughts. I would like to see a documentary on this case, with no bias, just a clear cut, fully informed documentary on how involved social services were with the boys at the time, the true lifestyles and feelings of the parents, the boys feelings at the time of the crime and their feelings now (post-rehab).

I think if something like this was to be done, yes it would make for uncomfortable viewing in some parts and no-one would be forced to watch it if they didn't wish to, but it would give us (the public) a true understanding of the circumstances surrounding this, it would assist social services and (professionals involved with children who show signs of disturbance) in recognising and administering the correct advice and treatment. For years I was very angry at this crime, and was also of the mindset that they deserved no freedom, no rehabilitation, that they should be locked away forever, that their age was irrelevant. But now I'm thinking differently. Of course, without question, the crime was absolutely horrific and that can never be argued, but I would like to know what actually led these boys to do this in the first place, and particluarly if there was anything more that could have been done at the time to prevent it happening.

As I say it's hard to say without knowing the true facts, I'm just going on what I have managed to ascertain thus far, along with some supposition too.

Blimey sorry for long post

Good post Karma- this has been debated sensibly- and thanks for that link Dan - very interesting.

http://news.aol.co.uk/bulger-k...10030422182726247204
he should definitely not be allowed out again if this is true

I find this really interesting Karma.

I once watched a Documentary about Ian Brady & Myra Hindley in which the 'experts' were almost positive that had they never met, they wouldn't have commit the crimes they did. I do not know if this would be the case, we will never know, however, it is possible that the 'two minds' coming together created the monsters that they were, who sowed the seeds out of the two of them in the first place to actually carry out what I can only assume were sick fantasies at the start?...

Most people would run a mile if someone they met even so much as hinted at some of the things they did...very interesting...

I never looked into the details of poor Jamie's injuries - it was just too awful - so can i ask .... did the acts upon him not fall into the realms of sex offences and so are his killers not seen as sex killers/paedophiles?

Interesting reading.

I ended up reading all about the Mary Bell case, last night. I didn't realise that there was another girl involved in that case. I wonder what happened to her and how she turned out.

Karma, that's one of the reasons I find it less shocking when it's children involved. You'd think that someone reaching adulthood with the propensity to commit such horrific acts, would have been showing signs of sadistic behaviour from a fairly early age, unless it's due to a brain injury at a later stage. So, you'd think parents, teachers, or others in authority would have taken steps to adjust their behaviour.

Kids, you'd think, are far more susceptible to peer pressure and less likely to think through their actions. Some kids are naturally empathic, but others do need teaching about how their actions affect others.

We should be reaching these kids far earlier, and finding out if there are things happening in their lives that are causing this behaviour. If they can't be taught empathy, they should be monitored very closely, for as long as needs be.

There's a page of links here from the Indy Karma - one of those might have what you're looking for

http://www.independent.co.uk/topics/James+Bulger

Little Jamie was the age my grandson is now.....Mother of god my blood runs cold at the very thought of anyone irregardless of their age harming him.

Going a bit off topic slightly.
Did anyone watch the fantastic drama a few years ago "Stuart a Life Backwards" it was based on a book about Stuart Shorter by Alexander Masters. It shows how early life can shape the future.

A short sentence from the Times article I've linked below.
'Who or what murdered the boy he was or might have been? Or was he, tragically, born to become what he did?'
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t...nt/article535040.ece

I am in no doubt wot-so-ever that how you are raised and your environment had a huge effect - but are some just born evil?
I think there are some that no matter wot simply enjoy being evil

I haven't read that one Essie but a few years back I read a book called All Gods Children by Fox Butterfield in which he'd done a detailed investigation of the family of a young criminal in America. He went back several generations and it was a really thought provoking book.

If you ever read the Inspector Lynley books by Elizabeth George then there is a book called (I think) What happened before he shot her which although fiction is still an interesting look at the forces which cause young people to commit bad crimes
Btw I read your post earlier about Mary Bell and the book - thanks for posting that. I can see both sides of the argument but still keep my opinions on Sereny and the publication

Veggie I partly agree with you about Gitta Sereny,she obviously made a lot of money from the book and the controversy about paying Mary Bell. I read an interesting article early this morning, which I'll try and find again & link which sort of changed my mind.

Also in the Stuart link I posted earlier it quotes
In a rather similar spirit, a confidential Home Office report revealed by this paper last week argued that children as young as three can be identified as potential criminals by their behaviour in nursery schools or by a family history of criminality. Nursery staff should be trained to spot children born to be hanged, as the old saying had it.

The Link I mentioned ^^^

The Mary Bell affair
The Mob will move on, the pain never can.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk...ry/0,,688106,00.html

---

WARNING - injuries details below


"The prosecution claims the killers stripped him from the waist. It is also claimed a grotesque indecency was inflicted on James: the foreskin of his penis was pulled back.
Many of the injuries covered an area of less than one square inch."


Child killers with a perverse sexual motive - it beggars belief that any with such depravity can be wholey rehabilitated. And i wonder if they should have the chance after such a crime.

My son was the same age as him at the time - which is why it upset me so much -and also called James

oh blimey Liver I remember when that lad was shot recently - Rhys? My parents were quite affected by that cos my brother was just the same when he was 11 - totally into football etc... probably just the what if something had happened to him at that age sort of thing

Cheers for the link Veggie, I'll take a look through in a little bit xx