Good points Bliz, but I am sorry, it just comes across as lame on her part..She heavily campaigned for changes in laws to protect children,c she set up Childline which helped countless adults and children, deal with the traumas of thier childhoods and for that I only have admiration for her..but even if she had heard a whiff of his wrongdoings, I would have expected her to speak up at the time...So was it a case of overlooking what was going on under her nose or a fear for her own career?..Lets face it, she was one of the few women who had power and influence at the BBC at the time..

I don't see what she could have done at the time Senora, if a woman comes out saying "I told Ester what Jimmy Saville did and she ignored me" then i'll look at it differently but rumours and hearsay aren't enough to go on.

It's a shame she is getting a tough time over this.... i felt so sorry for her in the Exposed program the other night. She looked devastated after hearing what those women had to say, when moments earlier she had said JS was a good man etc...... She could have quite easily refused permission on that clip to used in the program but she didn't.

I dunno i'm not a massive fan of hers tbh but i don't get why she is being dragged over the coals

She has written about it, in the Telegraph - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...-the-clock-back.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19867830

BBC apology etc.

Interesting article Bliz thank you for taking the time to put it up, but I see it in more cynical terms of Esther doing a series of damage limitation exercises...People are dissapointed in her, and I am afraid rightly so.

I know I am coming across as quite harsh here, but I know from 1st hand experience (Not me personally) but through my job, the damage hateful people like JS do, and trust me his legacy of abuse will have life long and far reaching effects on each of his victims and thier families..I am not blaming Esther for what Jimmy did, but at the same time, she and countless others at the BBC, have to take responsibility, for the complete failure to excercise some sort of duty of care to those girls.

So they bloody should!..

Maybe the blokes in charge around that time should have put their feet down, and be the ones held to blame now... 

women didn't have much of a voice back then, if any, and those that did try speaking out got vilified and most found work dried up as they were labelled as trouble makers within the old boys networks..

I just find it bizarre that she's getting all this flack. She was asked to view the documentary, because she is an advocate for abuse victims and because she worked at the BBC. She was visibly upset when she realised that those rumours she had heard were true and felt guilty that she hadn't taken them seriously at the time.

Obviously she couldn't deny that she'd never heard any rumours, as we all had, but she had no proof and those who did have proof, or allowed him access to children despite the rumours, should be the ones to feel the shame.

Blizz that's basically what Jeremy Vine was asking her today, why in hindsight you started childline (which is a brilliant thing), that with rumours of his abuse you didn't say anything.  Her answer was 'because it was just rumour and how do we believe rumour'.  Jeremy then said'But when you get a call from a child on childline isn't is just rumour until it's proved'

But, as she said, a child reporting it is not 'just rumour'. A creepy, or odd man will have people being suspicious of him and gossip and rumours will start spreading. That is entirely different to a child reporting that he has actually done something to them.

Agree Bliz - a child reporting abuse is first hand.

Rumour is just that - rumour - I guess there were lots of rumours going round about a lot of people at that time - it's not evidence.

Incidentally Freddie Starr called that woman an effin liar. Said he'd never been on JS TV show - channel 4 news has footage and Karin (the woman)  sat directly behind him when he performed on the Clunk Click show.

FS denying it just like JS denied being at the Jersey children's home - who are the effin liars? Beggars belief. Despicable people.

I don't really blame Esther - I'm not sure many people would rush to report someone on rumour and gossip alone, no matter how widespread.    Now, I completely believe that Savile did everything he's been accused of, BUT when my friend's daughter was at school, a male teacher was accused by a child (young teen) of abusing her - he denied it, I don't think anything was ever proved, but mud sticks and he committed suicide.  Only then did the child admit she'd made it up.    It's a huge accusation to make of anyone if you don't have proof or absolute faith in the complainant, that's all I'm saying.

But!
If you were Esther...would you not make your concerns known to the man (they were friends after all)

I know for sure if rumours of one my friends was of such a horrid nature, I would be right there in his/her face asking him/her!

Wouldn't care how famous/infamous he/she was! 

Shame on her for letting it lie...(was she on the up in her career at the time I wonder ? ) 

Were they friends, Slim?   I just read that she'd met him several times in the line of work and she found him creepy too.  

I met Sir Jimmy Savile half a dozen times when I worked with him on Jim’ll Fix It. Physically, I found him creepy, as so many people last week described him, but “creepiness” is not a crime. He used to kiss the palm of my hand when we met, slowly and lasciviously, and he made me shudder. But shuddering isn’t evidence. I didn’t think for a moment that I really knew him, the true Jimmy Savile, so there was no reason or opportunity to try and uncover the truth. No child ever told me, or rang ChildLine to tell them.

I'm sure she might have repeated the rumours, as could so many others (into hundreds I'm willing to bet)   I just feel that, because she was behind Childline she's being a bit unjustly vilified.

I don't blame Esther, I blame the people that knew exactly what was going on, the people that these incidents were reported too and it was swept under the carpet. Esther met him on half a dozen occasions through work, I don't think she ever claimed to be his friend, in fact she is on record as saying he was creepy, but creepy doesn't make a paedophile. She had no proof, no child had reported him to Childline. 

Without proof, you are asking for a whole lot of trouble to come tumbling around    I am sure that's how most of them felt. Hearsay and rumours do not prove guilt. Three separate police investigations came to nothing, so I doubt very much anyone could have done anything apart from those that dealt with the allegations. 

The retired nurse who reported him for abusing a patient, was ignored.

The BBC employee who reported him fondling a young girl in his dressing room...its the people that ignored or chose not to make official complaints, or if they were made, the ones that buried these reports... and those that did witness things and turned a blind eye, those are the ones that should be hanging their heads in shame.   

thanks Dame... you put into words what I was trying to say.     Esther seems an easy target because of her association with Childline, there are a lot more people with a lot more to feel guilty about.

I still feel she is kopping out.....Kaffy...if you as an adult found a man creepy...and was informed (as a rumour/otherwise) that a co-worker/friend/whatever, were being spoken of in such a disgusting manner, that you would keep schtum ?

It's a bit like hearing that a neighbour is of that way...would you sit on it ?

I wouldn't broadcast without the facts...but I sure as hell would make it my business to find out for sure!

I honestly don't know what I'd do Slim.   Honestly... I don't see myself marching up to a neighbour's door and saying 'hey... is it true you're a paedophile?  Only, lots of people think you might be and I think you're creepy'   What are they going to say? 'OK, it's a fair cop, I'll get me coat..'   

How would you find out 'for sure'?

They make have took the cowards way out Kaffy, they could have also ruined any career they had on hearsay and made an innocent person guilty on rumour alone. A hard choice without proof in anyone's book 

The authorities would know. (The BBC in this case...seeing as they appologised today)....even though no evidence has been confirmed or any charges been brought to his estate ?

I'm not saying he is innocent/guilty, cos I don't know for sure!

What I do know is, that a whole heap of folk who should have known better..didn't! 

Shame on them all........if he is guilty!
He's now dead.....so I guess we will never know for sure (unless there is filming/recordings etc)

Exactly!

I'm not sure I'm following your point slim?   We agree there was no proof - so what do you think Esther should have done?     I'm not talking about the people who DID witness stuff - they should obviously have spoken up - and the ones who had those things reported to them should have acted on those reports.   I'm  just not sure why Esther is copping flak when she had no more proof than the rest of us.

That's my point too Kaffy and the point Blizzie's been trying to make reading back, Esther and many others were in between a rock and a hard place. 

Now those that knew and can be proven to have known, should be and I hope are brought to task and if possible criminal charges brought against them  

My point is that, we all know Esther is NO shrinking Violet...I can't believe that she didn't have it in her to follow a trail & make a rumour into a fact especially a really smelly trail!
I put myself in her shoes...I would make it my mission to find out if I heard that a man was indecently assaulting young girls (on a regular basis,as is claimed)...she would of had her insider contacts..even back then. 

What would you do in her shoes ?

I agree with all of that Dame, and I agree with what Olly said about how women were very unrepresented and voiceless in a not so distant age.

And then we get to Esther Rantzen and I am reminded once again (thanks to Garage Joe's reference earlier in the thread) that Rantzen had much more considerable clout in the BBC hierarchy than the average female of the day, and that she was involved with, and later married to Desmond Wilcox .....journalist, documentary maker and all round seeker of truth. More importantly he was an executive head of general features at the beeb so in all likelihood had more than rumour and conjecture about Savile et al in his confidence. They were, more or less, a true power couple at TV Centre.

In the same way most have expressed an instinctive feeling about Savile being creepy, I have a feeling that Rantzen had heard more than rumours at the time, and if any of her nearest and dearest had been involved she would have sang like a canary and caused all manner of fuss. That's why I understood my mother when she said that Rantzen looked more guilty than devastated in the recent documentary and managed to make it about how she felt.

That said, it is hard to whistle blow...one needs courage, good fortune, timing, influence and credibility to swim against the tide...especially when agencies like the police and social services (who are supposed to be there to protect) are against you.

absolutely agree with this

I'm inclined to say..."Must have been hard for her the poor dear"...but as you so eloquently stated....she had the resources to hang the man out to dry if she'd had a mind to! 

Me too ........I think it's quite mad to be blaming people who'd heard 'rumours' - it's not the same thing at all IMO.

As I said before, slim - I honestly don't know what I'd do.   Assuming that the stories were rife that it was child abuse (I'm playing devil's advocate here btw - remember that it's only now that we're seeing all the pieces of the jigsaw brought out into one big spotlight) and not just a penchant for willing 15 year olds, which seemed to be how a great many of his contemporaries shrugged it off  - how would you get 'proof'?      Bait?    Surveillance?    The incidents were reported to the Police and they were ignored.   Why Esther though .. why not the BBC, the staff at the children's home who locked up the child who said 'no' for three days - and the Police!  They're the ones who should be copping it now.     I'd love to think I'd jump on a white horse, chain myself to railings, set a trap to expose him for what he was - as would anyone - but if I'm totally honest... I don't know what I'd do, other than probably try and drop a word in some other ears and see how it was received.     Seems back then though it was just shrugged off.

I agree with both Suzy and Slim, about how much clout Esther had and her relationship with Desmond Wilcox, but...we are still back to the point of proof, and she denies having any apart from rumour and hearsay. 

Watching the programme, I truly believe she was upset and yes maybe guilt, but how many are in the same position now and thinking if only? 

Then you have the ones that... I hope are quivering in their shoes, because they bloody well saw it, knew about it and covered it up. 

I hadn't thought about Esther having clout tbh - I suppose she did.   I still don't see that it makes it any easier for her to obtain proof - and she's not the guilty party in all this.  I do think she was genuinely upset, but also, as you say dame, that it was probably tinged with guilt.    Hindsight is a wonderful thing.  

I hope they are more than quivering in their boots Dame! I'm thinking of the production teams that practically put vulnerable kids on a plate (and in his caravan and changing room) for him, the Chiefs of Police that probably turned a blind eye (again possibly with a nod and a wink over a round of golf), the teaching staff at that reform school that highlighted the 'wickedness' of the young girls that complained about him and the powers that be at Leeds General Infirmary that allowed him unsupervised access to the sick and helpless!

Soozy!
We aren't talking about rumours of someone shoplifting or indeed cheating the benefits system...this is about young girls being abused!
Rumours (no matter how big or small) of this nature should be followed up!

By everyone! 

I think it's Jimmy Savile hiding behind charities, making a big deal about his voluntary work and getting honours for it all that grinds my gears the most.

^^^^ absolutely  

How do you follow it up though slim?     what do you do?   Other than what my parents did and parents today hopefully still do - try to teach your kids to stay safe and in my day we were told not to speak to certain people, or walk home a certain way.

yep - I'm actually not sure what I find the most sickening - the teenagers, or the people in Leeds general.   At least some of the fiestier teens tried to fight him off.

I don't know Kaffs. That's the advice I got from my parents and that's the advice I give to my kids. But, this man was given free reign in a genre of light entertainment that was particular to children and teens...that were positively encouraged to apply to his programmes. It stinks to the very heart!

it really does, suzy