You haven't!

Why would you presume I'm not used to manual labour? Because I've never picked asparagus?

Cagney I can't debate with someone who chooses to be as bloody minded as you.  It was an example nothing  more nothing less.  I never presumed anything.  

I'm bowing out of this discussion as there's no point when people will only see their own fixed view. 

Can I just say for the record I have not picked asparagus - well only from the supermarket

Pengy 

Perhaps I should have quoted this whole post. I'm not being bloody minded. You chose my post to quote when you posted this.

3rd line - because she's used to manual labour
5th line - you'd be sacked long before you'd get used to doing manual labour

Pengy I'm sorry if you think I'm getting at you 

You did say though that an English person would obviously be slower. I still don't get it. Is this because of one programme?

I was using the experience of the programme and it confirmed that the English people they used were slower because their previous professions were office based.

I don't understand what you don't understand about what I said   The example I used was just based on what this programme showed (Issy I know you've never harvested asparagus) 

3rd line if someone has years of experience of doing manual labour they are going to be quicker than someone who has years of experience doing i.e. telesales in an office.  Manual labour versus office work is not comparable - common sense would suggest that surely?

5th line as this programme showed, these office workers were sacked after one day because they couldn't keep pace with their Polish counter parts and because they'd picked so little they hadn't even made enough to qualify for minimum wage.  They were not given sufficient time to get used to the job. There is a world of difference in clicking a computer and answering telephones than going out in a field bending, cutting, straightening and all expected at great speed.  As I said, stamina is built over time we're not born with it.

There are statistically very few English farm labourers these days - they are nearly always Eastern European.  A large part of that is probably because some thought the job was beneath them or because they didn't want to work on the land.  Now jobs are scarce more are wanting to move into that field but it's a culture shock moving to hard manual labour. 

I dread to think what all these latest cuts will do to our society I expect more folk will turn to crime to make a living as if we havent enough already. Thank god i am not claiming benefits. The Uni riots of late are a something of things to come i reckon. Start at the bottom and work up is this govm'ts criteria. why not start at the top and work down? Do we need all the old fogeys in the house of lords? do we need Mayors and all the expence that goes with them? Do we need High Sherifs Etc; the list is endless.. They are in it for themselves- high paid jobs and the attitude Feck you jack im ok.

Now you've explained it makes more sense. There was nothing about office workers in your original post and since I didn't see the programme you mentioned I questioned it. All you mentioned were British and Polish workers. That could mean anything. 

confusion resolved   and spat over 

and on that note I'm off to my bed 

I agree with this...........but........while I want what you've suggested I do think it's about time people starting living within their means. It's about time we stopped blaming everything on the government and realise we've done some of this to ourselves. Nobody forces us to take credit and get into debt. Maybe for essentials but not for half the crap we've built up on credit cards and loans. It's a "keeping up with the Jones'" society and it's partially that which is crippling us.

Night Pengy 

Wishing for a Champagne lifestyle on a beer income.

I agree with your earlier post re: 50" plasmas, games consoles, Sky tv and the like.
When I was on my uppers all I cared about was food and heating.

I agree ............I have a credit card which I use for convenience (online shopping mostly) we clear it every month. My husband is totally opposed to spending beyond our means (left to me we'd be on exotic holidays three times a year). I know many, many people who spend way beyond their means on holidays, designer clothes etc.............it all has to be paid back somehow and at some point ..............I think this crash was sort of inevitable.

I'm surprised that we have drifted into a debate about who is best placed to uproot veg. A couple of pages back anyway. When I entered the world of work the north east was a hotbed of skilled work. This work led to a well structured society. A Tory administration completely ruined it using the philosophy that industry was the old way. The economic future of the country would rest on the banking and services. T'was doomed to failure. It's not even hindsight. My company employed 30k, when I left 300.  Linwood no more! Teesside no more! They, the Tories, gambled and lost. Shame on anyone who believes in 'em.

Been there...done it eh? 

I don't want to drag up old arguments but someone on here mentioned scroungers. I can't be doing with them and if I know of one I'll report them. If I have to work for what I've got them so should everyone else who's able 

Do you think we should have a competition? When will the old Victorian concepts of "the deserving poor," or the "undeserving poor!" be first mentioned?

What are we competing for? Who's had the worst upbringing? Who's living on the least money? What's considered poor nowadays?

Indeed!

I'm also surprised at the turn this thread has taken (of course, I'm not),
but I'd like an answer from pretty_p, or anyone else who cares, as to why someone suffering from anxiety is automatically considered a 'scrounger'.


Mr Blizz was lucky, although it seemed like we were going through Hell, at the time. He had support from his employer and didn't need government support, but if he hadn't had that, he would have had to apply for help. I had two very young kids, at the time, and a next to useless husband (I say that with love).


Could anyone explain what the Scum article was actually complaining about?

Because sadly Blizzie it mirrors the attitude that is widespread in our country towards people with ,mental health issues.
A broken leg can be seen, a broken mind can't.

Therein lies the problem.

Not in my world they're not.

As for the farm labouring, my mum spent many years picking fruit and potatoes, as a 'lower middle class' mother of six kids, with not a lot of  dosh coming in. Most of her kids also went into the fields, as holiday jobs (bloody back breaking, but satisfying, as anything earning you money was).


My niece has just had a Gap Yah, mainly in OZ, and did her stint as a friut picker. Her tales are of Asian Yoof, who were incredibly hard working and whose eyes were on the prize of sending money back home, compared with Gap Yah kids from Britain and France, who were there for the experience and had to earn something to live on (drink). The Australians were incredibly (in her eyes) racist towards the hard working Asians.


I think any immigrant workforce will have hugely increased insentive, compared to native workers, whether they are used to manual labour (I nearly wrote Manuel labour there), or not.
Leaving your home to make a better life for yourself, is a big clue to how you will work, IMO.


I have mentioned before that my husband works in a company that uses Portuguese workers in busy times and finds them very industrious. His brother works in Portugal and uses a lot of British workers, as he finds the Portuguese a bit Spanish (manana).

That's probably my fault 

The original post was about anxiety and I brought up about scroungers. Not meaning the two are connected all the time but we got onto manual labour, living within your means etc and I brought up scroungers. A progression of the thread rather than commenting on the original topic 

Not at all!


Scroungers were implied from the very beginning, whilst my point, from the first page, has been studiously ignored by the OP.

I said something very similar several pages back, but nobody took any notice. I agree completely though.

There will always be a place for skilled workers (and by that I mean everything from hairdressers to surgeons) in this country. It's whether people are willing to train for them that's the problem.

I'm not so sure.


There seems to be a lot of training, followed by no bloody jobs, at the moment. I think unskilled workers deserve more respect and an increase in the minimum wage is long overdue. Maybe that would make working, instead of claiming, more attractive.

I agree Blizzie. Unskilled workers are the backbone of society and the wage they are expected to work for is shocking sometimes but if it means putting a roof over your head and feeding your family I know I'd do it. 

As for the training and then no jobs. If I'm honest I think some see college and Uni as an easy option for a few years then get all outraged because they can't find a job with their degree in something like Art History. I know I'm being totally random there but there are so many graduates who come out of college or uni thinking the world owes them a job. It doesn't work like that. Even for unskilled workers. Most people start at the bottom and work up. Some expect to walk into the top job and anything else is beneath them. Hence it's easier for them to claim benefits than work.

*disclaimer* I know not all students do this but some do and it's those I'm referring to

I'll be honest too.


I do see Uni as a worthwhile experience (although I only lasted a year, as I totally forgot to study) and , although I'm glad Labour widened it out so that more people could try it, I do worry for those who have useless degrees and are hoping for a well paid job, I also think a lot of recent 'schemes' have given false hope to people, by training them in various ways and not thinking about the job market.


Any schemes that give purpose and self esteem to peeps with low expectations, I'm all for. I know, as someone who gave up work to drag up kids, that it gets scarier over time. I will probably end up in something quite unskilled and be proud of it, but I will still be relying on Mr Blizz to bring in some of the dough, and that, as a feminist, isn't ideal!

Don't then. I never relied on my husbands (three of them) to provide for me. The second one was my children's father and I was 31 when we separated and in this country 3 years, the children were 5 and 3. I got off my back, never saw a penny from him for about 5 years until he realised what it took to buy trainers.

It seems to be something kids are pushed into after school. You HAVE to go to Uni sot of thing. I agree with it if it's something that's going to benefit them career wise but if it's not then you may as well tell them to take a few years out, have parties, socialise and inbetween all that go to some classes. Maybe I'm just old school.........learn a trade and you'll never go hungry 

I'm an old socialist dinosaur and I remember the mantra of Education, Education, Education, but I always disagreed with this drive that everybody has to aspire to go to university. We need manual skills in this country. Get kids into apprentiship as it used to be in the old days. Take some lessons from the Discworld.

My eldest is working hard at Uni (third year and loving it) and my second is having a year working, before (hopefully) going next year. He is a worry, as I really didn't think he would want to continue studying, but he does, and I can't, in all good conscience, tell him not to.



If he doesn't go next year, he will be hit with the new higher charges, and I'd kick myself for stopping him.


I tell all my kids that I'm happy, as long as they are happy, but I'd hate them to miss out on a worthwhile experience and future job propects, by my putting them off Uni.

A bit late for that advice. I've been out of paid work for twenty years.

I didn't want anyone else bringing my kids up, but I realise I've paid for that.

I understand that totally. I waited until both my children were at school and then went back to Uni, I still needed a nice woman to get them to school for me, pick them up and stay with them for about an hour till I got back, but I just managed to afford that, the kids liked her and it didn't infringe on our time together.

.

I would say to anyone who genuinely needs the allowance or ICB, to have a good think about their GP and exactly what they're doing for them. Consider changing if there's any doubt about your GP's commitment to you as a patient, the relief I felt when I saw my new GP was immense, as finally someone was saying 'this is just not good enough, something needs to be done' and within a couple of weeks I was under the physio programme I should have been doing 6 weeks post surgery (but it was 10 months late) and things are finally being looked into. Don't be afraid to stand up for yourself and get second opinions cos no-one else is gonna do it for you.


EDIT: Blizz I've taken out what I posted about my stuff. Thought about it and thought it best to take it out x

Stories like yours, Karma, seem to confirm that it is already quite stringent. My own GP is brilliant, but there is one, at our surgery, who I would refuse to see, unless I was dying.


Going back to the original article, again, I see nothing wrong with medics being advised on signs to look for, to assess patients properly.


I'd still like to see what pretty_p thought so wrong in that advice.


BTW, I'm glad you've finally had some results. Are you in less pain, nowadays?

Thanks Blizz xx  Painwise, less in terms of the constant severity cos of the patches, but it's always there, some days are worse than others, you know how it goes . And I've secretly named my physio lady Kathy Bates - she's bloody sadistic Yesterday she was yanking me about like I was Stretch Armstrong, I wanted to smack her chops It's the mobility that's the major issue and other stuff going on...all stuff that my former GP (i.e. the medical so called professional) failed to pick up on or do anything about. Gah I could right knee him in the knackers the stupid dozy goat

Interesting that you have a GP who you wouldn't see. I know these people are not miracle workers and have studied hard for their craft, but there are some really bad ones out there who seem to lack the care and attention to detail needed for their role. And it's the poor patients of these people who I feel really sorry for because they probably don't realise they're being mugged off, and even if they might think they are, wouldn't want to question a Doctor's 'expertise'. Yet it's the patients who suffer with things like claiming what they're entitled to and getting the correct medical care.

Have just managed to catch up on the whole thread (I am watching Maury aswell ) but I can't remember who it was that said the bankers shouldn't shoulder the same responsibility as benefit cheats - whoever you are - where have you been for the last 5 years??!

Most) of the reason this country is in the state it's in is because of the Government and the Bank's involvement in agreeing mortgages to people who couldn't afford to pay them back. The sub-prime market and self-certification are the areas that have played a MASSIVE part in the trouble, all because bankers happily signed away hundreds of thousands of pounds to show an overage on their YoY profit margins. Big bonuses and happy days all round for the suits with the hairgel.

They were only looking at the immediate profit potential,in 2006  they couldn't give a shit what state the country would be in 2010. They all knew what would happen, but it didn't matter, it was the quick win they wanted - and they got it.

Benefit cheats are of course a problem in this country, no doubt about it. But so are the Employers who around 2005, started recruiting from Europe solely because they could get away with paying employees from overseas a hell of a lot less. It was a well known tactic in the recruitment industry and affected the British candidates massively. Polish lorry drivers were particularly popular, would put in 18 hour days for a pittance and wouldn't complain.

There are fingers of blame to be pointed everywhere, but ultimately, (IMO anyway), it is the fault of the Labour Government and the bankers who have cost this country billions of pounds by agreeing to unsuitable credit, who hold the most accountability for the mess we are in today. Funnily enough, this isn't mentioned is it? Noooo, Mr Tory twonk and his dick of a nodding dog just want to bang on and on about people on benefits and the unemployed.

Was it not suggested that if the 'rich' were to be taxed by a certain percentage per annum (that they wouldn't even miss because they earn so much in interest), that this would majorly reduce the UK debt?


Oh bloody hell I've gone on a bit there -sozs