So much for a ceisefire.... watching Sky News Live, started fireing away again.

Possibly look at some of its civilians - but not all of them. Or are you saying the efforts by many of its civilians to oust Gaddafi and fight for democracy and freedom is a waste of time? It's plain wrong to say Libyans are not sufficiently "evolved" - if you had listened to even half the articulate, reasoned news articles I have where so many Libyans have stated with intelligence and clarity what it is they are after .... 

It's like looking at a BNP rally and then denouncing the entire UK population as a bunch of racist twats.

Yep Cariad.

Exactly my thoughts Cariad.

From the BBC live updates:

 Nato's top decision-making body has approved a military plan to implement the UN arms embargo on Libya, but failed to agree on a plan to enforce the no-fly zone, the Associated Press reports. Diplomats told the agency that Turkey's opposition to any Nato intervention in Libya stalled the approval of plans to launch patrols to prevent attacks on civilians by government aircraft. Both actions will require a separate "execute directive" by the North Atlantic Council, which requires the consensus of all 28 members of the military alliance. Diplomats said this could be issued on Tuesday at the earliest.

It is in the hands of the UN not NATO now. The UN stated that "all means to stop attacks on civilians are permitted"  This is a UN action not NATO. Germany abstained and Turkey- well nuff said there then.
Another thing was the League of Arab Nations objecting to air strikes on sam/radar sites in Lybia saying they only agreed to a No-Fly zone---Dohhhhhhhhhhhh OK then- send in your planes to defend the skies over Lybia with those sites still operational. Fekkin Dumb shits trying to sneak out the back door now the shit has hit the fan. It will be us and the US who take all the flak as usual, even though its us ( with the French ) who are risking our lives. Without ground troops, this is a no-brainer IMO. Someone needs to lead the opposition troops on how to make their next move, and without experts at how to do this then it is all just a waste of time and money.

It's not a waste of time. They'll oust Gadaffi and another clown will take his place. This isn't about politics for them it's about religion (the curse of the world since time began) no matter who takes Gaddafi's place they'll still have an axe to grind with the rest of the world who doesn't respect their false idol. They might thank us for giving them a bit of breathing space but it will end there.

There won't be any democracy there will be a temporary 'freedom' and they will start all over again where they left off and in 20 years we'll be called upon to 'set them free' again. Why have they suddenly all rebelled? Oh they saw it on TV how other countries are fighting the good fight ffs how long has it taken this 'intelligent and articulate' society to reach the conclusion they are taking it up the ass from an absolute lunatic?

For us and the US it's about oil. I admire your optimism that this is all about freeing the repressed. Time will prove me correct.

Admirable fortune telling... 

FWIW, the UK's commercial links with Libya are relatively low key.

The UK's links with the US are very high profile (get the pun there?) i.e. they say jump we say how high.

Hilarious, lol   

Mmm, you may be right.  I'm not sure it's so simple here.  I don't think the US were the main drivers in diplomacy here - in fact I think they were rather more reluctant than "we" were.  But what do I know.

That pun would have been groovier if you'd slipped a sly comma after "high" btw...

Blimey, I wish you'd taken my name off Prom's rant! 

Couldn't agree more, btw.

Stop being such a pessimist! 

All cultures have been through this process, have they not?
I'm encouraged by this chain reaction and I've heard very little mention of religion in any of this.

I'm not trying to 'out' anyone. I are a grown up. Allegedly.

lol the crusade has passed you by Blizz. They do everything in the name of religion and they are ruled accordingly. Non secular states are still mindless vacuums untouched by what I call civilisation. Anything we 'solve' here will need to be addressed again at a later date because of the mindset of the people. Cameron thinks it will look good on his CV, but he's a bit f*cking thick.

Eh? 

I know you have a deep hatred for any religion, but these are not religious revolutions, Prom.

These are people fighting for freedom, justice and democracy.

I'll agree with your last point.

When they're done fighting for that they'll be back to fighting each other and hating the western world again. Yes, I sound a bit bitter tonight, sorry. I can just see us heading down another dark alley at the behest of yet another depressingly retarded British government.

Or, we'll have more countries voting for their own governments and embracing freedom of thought, speech and the press. 

I get very confused by all this 'western' business.

Where exactly does the west start and end?

So what would you rather?  Build a massive wall, disengage, and when even an (ostensibly) democratic revolution takes place go, "F*ck youse!  You're from that Islamic part of the world so I can't even engage with ya!!!!!!!!!  \/ " 

I happen to believe religion - all of it - is pernicious bullshit too I'm not naive enough to shut out vast tracts of our planet cause I think they're not capable of secular democracy.  Despite the fact that our own "people power" is relatively youthful itself, of course.

Blizz and Antiope, let's continue this discussion when the 'war' is over. I predict you will both be eating humble pie and asking 'what the f*ck was that all about?' and I intend to divide the slices equally. I don't want any of that 'they got a bigger slice than me' nonsense. I'm fair if nothing else.

Since our own struggles towards democracy took so many ups and downs I'm not sure you or I will be doing anything but feeding maggots by then, Prom, but hey!  I'll take your generous offer 

I don't mind, if it's savoury, and I insist on puff pastry. 

To be honest, though, even if things go bosoms up, I'll always think it was worth giving them a chance.

Just because Iran's revolution ended up with a theocracy, it doesn't mean that all Muslim countries will end up the same.

I admire your optimism Blizz. I hate all forms of war. Senseless waste of human life. In some circumstances (Hitler) it's completely justified. More often than not, there's just a feeling of emptiness and sadness and a general agreement that it should never have happened. Japan was a natural disaster. Terrible, tragic and heartbreaking. Nothing anyone can do about it, but the senseless waste of life we can stop, we never do. Shame on us.

And that's kinda the thing, Blizz'ard.  For me anyway.

Just cause summat doesn't have the result one hopes for first time out doesn't meant one shouldn't support attempts.  Christ, we were mad for Cromwell at one point.  That went tits up but it was a step on the ladder.

I understand, Prom, but I see no other option with Totalitarian Dictatorships.

The people tried to protest peacefully and were shot at by their own security forces.
Ideally, no other countries would need to help, but unless you have an army like the Egyptian one, which decided to be on the side of the people, there is no other choice, except to stand by and watch the slaughter, or watch the people retreat back to the shadows and endure more years of dictatorship.

For once, I think the UN is doing the job it should be doing.

Exactly, Antiope. 
If we want cultures to evolve, let's support them, not denigrate their attempts.
We were there, not that long ago.

Mind you, I still want some pie.

It's going to happen, trust me on this. Don't trust me in the way Nick 'Hi can I call you Blizz?' asks you to trust him. Trust me in some other 'good' way. Except it will all end badly.

Not if it's puff pastry.
That's impossible.

My pie will know no equal  Night Blizz 

Night Prom. 

More people believe in "God" or something supernatural in this country than don't btw, Prom.  So if Libya is unevolved then so is our civilised island I'm afraid. 

Reporters in Libya under "Government supervision".... we can bloody see that.


On Sky News Lisa Holland is almost defending Gaddafi Don't know why they bother going out there if they can't report the truth.

or maybeeeez coz you only get it wrong when you try!

Just watched the " highlights" of the Commons debate . Ed Milliband looks like a seagull scored a direct hit right on his napper..

At least I'm consistent. Got it wrong every single time so far. 

My cousin's a shady dealer.

All the riff raff - Libya last year.

Everytime I see and hear him I get Wallace and Gromit flashbacks.

There won't be any democracy there will be a temporary 'freedom' and they will start all over again where they left off and in 20 years we'll be called upon to 'set them free' again. Why have they suddenly all rebelled? Oh they saw it on TV how other countries are fighting the good fight ffs how long has it taken this 'intelligent and articulate' society to reach the conclusion they are taking it up the ass from an absolute lunatic?


prom^^

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they ddint see it on tv, they organised on facebook and twitter for the most part, the tunisian president , ben ali, was no lunatic,  although it's convenient  for us to think  so, he brought stability and education to tunisia,and a degree of wealth and  anvancement, and the people  knew he was a dictator   but accepted, that  maybe that was  the price they had to pay for stability, they had been under the cosh of  the french imperialism for so long,they only rebelled  after he and his wife's  family  went too far , took over any successfull business and imprisoned  any  dissenters, and  some poor sod who had a degree  couldnt  find work and eventually set fire to himself in protest.

and this intelligent and articulate society   you   sneeringly  refer to has taken it up the arse from a deranged dictator for so long due to a fear of having their fingernails ripped out with pliers and their relatives killed  and hung from trees for daring to  be a disenter, when you,ve been subjected to that kind of state terror and overcome it to the point of being past  scared then, i may listen to you.