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Moomin
I wonder if any FMs out there have had any experience as employers with employees who they feel are being signed off as sick when they aren't really?

I will try and keep this brief, but here goes -

OH and I took over as owners of a small retail business about 15 months ago.
We employed a part time worker for speed I shall refer to them as L in September who is now off "sick"
L has been married for just over a year, but since Christmas L has been asking for particular shifts to work to avoid spending too much time with partner. L's work has been deteriorating and has been making mistakes which losing us money.
Our manageress gave her a verbal warning 2 weeks ago and L broke down and told us it was all because of Marriage probs. Less than a week later L told us that they had left partner and marriage was over - saying "I never should have got married in the first place" and "I don't want to lose my job so I have got rid of the problem and everything is good now"
L then asked to swap her holday at the end of the month to an immediate one to take things out of house. As another employee was on holiday we said we couldn't do this.
Next day L phones in sick with depression, and since then has been signed of by a doctor for 3 weeks, up until previously booked holiday.

Anyone still with me?
Seems obvious that L wanted this time off and was going to get it by hook or by crook.
So out of a staff of 4, we had two off - so I have had to work a lot more to cover.

However - here is the real annoyance - L has been seen by several customers in the local pub, all day, EVERY day, and is throwing themselves at any member of the opposite sex who is breathing, apparently.


My question is - do we have any comeback for this as obviously we are having to pay SSP for someone who we believe is swinging the lead.
We actually want rid but know that there has to be 2 written warnings first. However L is making mugs out of us and getting away with it.

Has anyone any similar experiences to this - we are fairly new to the employer side of things and would welcome any help.

Sorry the post is so long, but wanted to give as much info as possible.

Thanks Smiler
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kattymieowwkattymieowwMember 10 years
Have they been giving in doctor's lines etc?Now I'm not too sure but there is a time limit on that.You can also ask them to attend a doctor of your choice,to asess their "condition".
It's a shame when folk mess about with "sickness" etc,spoils it for genuine folk.

That sounds bad now...I was myself off with full blown depression for nearly a year yonks ago,My dad died in front of me.It hit hard anout three months after his death,believe me going to the pub etc was the last thing on my mind.I dropped two stones and wouldn't go out.All cases are different though,.
kattymieoww
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H HollygolightlyMember
Hi Moomin, regrettably once L has been certified 'unfit' by a medical practioner you have very little recourse. You best bet is to bite the bullit over the next three weeks, when L comes back, DO EVERYTHING BY THE BOOK, ie. give verbal warnings(as applicable) in the presence of a witness and then, and only then can you go down the firing line.
In the meantime, contact the Employment tribunal and find out in details what rights you have as an Employer. Go in and see them and they will tell you how to proceed.

It's a real shame that L is so obviously taking the p..s but for now it would seem the ball is in L's court. I am so sorry for you - its bloody unfair, but I would check out your rights asap. Good Luck Thumbs Up
H
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MoominMoominMember
quote:
Originally posted by Demantoid:
quote:
Originally posted by Moomin:
quote:
Originally posted by Demantoid:
I think L sounds like she has major problems. Disappointed


And we have major problems with L!!

Count yourselves lucky you're not her. And pray you find people more sympathetic to turn to if you're ever in a similar situation.


Sorry if I don't sympathetic to you, but I have not mentioned a lot of other things she has done while supposedly working for us as I wanted to keep this short.
Maybe we ( and by we I mean us and our other 3 employees) seem lacking in sympathy cos we have all had problems of our own without having to take time off work - I took 2 days off only when my dad died and 1 day when my mum died, and similarly with our employees. I have plenty of sympathy for those who deserve it, so i feel your comment is a abit harsh.
Moomin
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FM Former Member
quote:
Originally posted by forgetmenot:
one of the things that happens when you employ people to help you make money, they can get sick. sorry, nothing else to suggest other than send her some flowers,get well soon, say be glad to see her soon as she is well, etc..(on employer once sent me flowers when i was very sick)

That's not a bad idea. For all the stuff on the surface, she must be a bit messed up, and some flowers might encourage her to think about work again. Some sympathy and perhaps calling her in for a chat to tactfully explain the impact on the company might be in order.
FM
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LeccyLeccyMember
quote:
I took 2 days off only when my dad died and 1 day when my mum died, and similarly with our employees. I have plenty of sympathy for those who deserve it, so i feel your comment is a abit harsh.

Ninja

I realise this might inflame some people...and I really don't mean to...but this is why I'd hate to work for a small firm again...

I know it's different for you, because it's your livelihood at risk, I also accept that there are a great many hard-working loyal workers out there who go above and beyond the call of duty. But honestly, I could never care about any job that much, even if it was picking diamonds out of Dave Grhol's ass.
Leccy
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old hippy guyold hippy guyMember
not realy sure this is the right place to be asking for such advice,BUT
I know that ...in the past when I have found myself trapped in a job I didnt want (because 1/ the pay was lousy and 2/ the job they had me doing was NOT the job I was interviewed for, and they basicaly lied to me in the interview)

however, IF I had just walked out I would not have been able to claim dole or any other benefits, as I walked out of a job,
so I used my old leg injury to "go sick" with the intention of sticking it out untill such time that they "let me go"
now this was back in the "good old" thatcher days,
so I aint sure how it works now,

BUT I think back then after 12 weeks of absence they could fire you IF they could prove that they needed to set someone on to cover your job,

you could ALSO try advertising or aproaching an agency for a "temp" to cover Ls job while they are sick, Nod
old hippy guy
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DemantoidDemantoidMember
quote:
Originally posted by Moomin:
quote:
Originally posted by Demantoid:
quote:
Originally posted by Moomin:
quote:
Originally posted by Demantoid:
I think L sounds like she has major problems. Disappointed


And we have major problems with L!!

Count yourselves lucky you're not her. And pray you find people more sympathetic to turn to if you're ever in a similar situation.


Sorry if I don't sympathetic to you, but I have not mentioned a lot of other things she has done while supposedly working for us as I wanted to keep this short.
Maybe we ( and by we I mean us and our other 3 employees) seem lacking in sympathy cos we have all had problems of our own without having to take time off work - I took 2 days off only when my dad died and 1 day when my mum died, and similarly with our employees. I have plenty of sympathy for those who deserve it, so i feel your comment is a abit harsh.

Sorry, I don't mean to sound harsh, but I thought you came across as very unsympathetic.

You have no way of knowing whether she's taking the pee or is genuine, but you seem to have made up your mind she's lying, no matter what her doctor says.

Everyone deals with emotional stress in different ways - none of us know what it's really like to be in someone else's head. Just because you might handle it well, doesn't mean someone else is bullshitting if they don't.
Demantoid
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loislaneloislaneMember
quote:
Originally posted by lainy m:
quote:
Originally posted by loislane:
Her doctor more than likely gave her a cert saying she is stressed. There is not much you can do really she is going down all legal paths.
My OH left yesterday I have a daughter to take care of no break up is easy L must be very upset.



How long had you been together lois?


4 years my daughter is 7 months. I have a thread in the lounge I really didnt mean to hijack this one.

Thanks to all who have been compassionate on here. I have only told my mum so I cant be ringing her all day as she works full time. Talking on here is helping.
loislane
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Queen of the High TeasQueen of the High TeasMember
quote:
Originally posted by forgetmenot:
one of the things that happens when you employ people to help you make money, they can get sick. sorry, nothing else to suggest other than send her some flowers,get well soon, say be glad to see her soon as she is well, etc..(on employer once sent me flowers when i was very sick)


I think that's a really good idea. You can't lose by doing this. You'll look like excellent and caring employers to her and to all other members of staff. Staff who feel as though they are appreciated and cared for are much more likely to be loyal and happy in their work which will only help productivity in the worlplace.
Queen of the High Teas
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FM Former Member
Agree with others- for many,getting ratted and throwing yourself at opposite sex are sure fire signs of reactive depression following a break up .
However,from an employers point of view and if you want to be ruthless!: In most cases, employees can't claim unfair dismissal until they have worked for you for a year or more.... However, not being funny moonmin but, if you're running a business, you really ought to make yourself aware of basic employment law and get yourself some decent HR advice. As a start, suggest you have a look at Acas website www.acas.org.uk or call the Acas
Helpline 08457 474747.
FM
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DemantoidDemantoidMember
quote:
Originally posted by electric6:
quote:
I took 2 days off only when my dad died and 1 day when my mum died, and similarly with our employees. I have plenty of sympathy for those who deserve it, so i feel your comment is a abit harsh.

Ninja

I realise this might inflame some people...and I really don't mean to...but this is why I'd hate to work for a small firm again...

I know it's different for you, because it's your livelihood at risk, I also accept that there are a great many hard-working loyal workers out there who go above and beyond the call of duty. But honestly, I could never care about any job that much, even if it was picking diamonds out of Dave Grhol's ass.

I'm with you on that one, Leccy! Laugh
I have the flip-side - I work for a huge company where employees aren't individuals, just work operatives.

They altered our shifts a few months ago (lates three weeks out of four, as well as every other weekend) and I honestly think I'm going to lose it, if I stay much longer.

Not that they would give a monkey's Disappointed
Demantoid
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old hippy guyold hippy guyMember
quote:
Originally posted by Demantoid:
quote:
Originally posted by electric6:
quote:
I took 2 days off only when my dad died and 1 day when my mum died, and similarly with our employees. I have plenty of sympathy for those who deserve it, so i feel your comment is a abit harsh.

Ninja

I realise this might inflame some people...and I really don't mean to...but this is why I'd hate to work for a small firm again...

I know it's different for you, because it's your livelihood at risk, I also accept that there are a great many hard-working loyal workers out there who go above and beyond the call of duty. But honestly, I could never care about any job that much, even if it was picking diamonds out of Dave Grhol's ass.

I'm with you on that one, Leccy! Laugh
I have the flip-side - I work for a huge company where employees aren't individuals, just work operatives.

They altered our shifts a few months ago (lates three weeks out of four, as well as every other weekend) and I honestly think I'm going to lose it, if I stay much longer.

Not that they would give a monkey's Disappointed


hehe if you think its bad NOW wait until the eaton mafia are running the place,

TORIES they know the price of everything and the value of NOTHING Nod
old hippy guy
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MoominMoominMember
quote:
Originally posted by Supercalifragilistic:
Agree with others- for many,getting ratted and throwing yourself at opposite sex are sure fire signs of reactive depression following a break up .
However,from an employers point of view and if you want to be ruthless!: In most cases, employees can't claim unfair dismissal until they have worked for you for a year or more.... However, not being funny moonmin but, if you're running a business, you really ought to make yourself aware of basic employment law and get yourself some decent HR advice. As a start, suggest you have a look at Acas website www.acas.org.uk or call the Acas
Helpline 08457 474747.


Thanks, Super - we have already done all that, and been on the HMRC site about SSP, but it seems that we haven't a leg to stand on as she has a sick note. Though I can see this going on for a very long time and we have to keep on paying her for 28 weeks.
Thanks for your advice, I've obviously made (unintentionally) some people on here a bit cross. Frowner
Moomin
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H HollygolightlyMember
quote:
Originally posted by Moomin:
quote:
Originally posted by Supercalifragilistic:
Agree with others- for many,getting ratted and throwing yourself at opposite sex are sure fire signs of reactive depression following a break up .
However,from an employers point of view and if you want to be ruthless!: In most cases, employees can't claim unfair dismissal until they have worked for you for a year or more.... However, not being funny moonmin but, if you're running a business, you really ought to make yourself aware of basic employment law and get yourself some decent HR advice. As a start, suggest you have a look at Acas website www.acas.org.uk or call the Acas
Helpline 08457 474747.


Thanks, Super - we have already done all that, and been on the HMRC site about SSP, but it seems that we haven't a leg to stand on as she has a sick note. Though I can see this going on for a very long time and we have to keep on paying her for 28 weeks.
Thanks for your advice, I've obviously made (unintentionally) some people on here a bit cross. Frowner

Hug Hug
H
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FM Former Member
quote:
Originally posted by Moomin:

Sorry if I don't sympathetic to you, but I have not mentioned a lot of other things she has done while supposedly working for us as I wanted to keep this short.In which case you can go down the 'competency/disciplinary route if needs be
Maybe we ( and by we I mean us and our other 3 employees) seem lacking in sympathy cos we have all had problems of our own without having to take time off work - I took 2 days off only when my dad died and 1 day when my mum died, and similarly with our employees. I have plenty of sympathy for those who deserve it, so i feel your comment is a abit harsh.
Everyone's different- I took no time off work when my partner biggered off with another woman, but was like a zombie and not productive at all, when my Dad died I had a week off, went back to work and couldn't even remember the no.to dial an outside line, never mind how to do my job safely and productively, so went off sick gor 2 weeks....Sorry, but you do sound v harsh
FM
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EllsEllsMember
L sounds like the Boy who cried Wolf. Maybe she has been taking the pee in the past and now genuinely needs the time off due to the marriage failure. The drinking all day and throwing herself at men in the bar sounds like she's having a rough time lately. However, I can understand why you are at your wits end with her Hug it's hard on both parties I suppose. I, personally, would send her a bunch of flowers telling her you were thinking about her and were looking forward to her return fom work as soon as she is better then as someone else said, do everything by the book by giving warnings in writing and then finaly sacking her if she really is a nightmare employee. She might just need this time off to get her head stright and may return with fire in her belly.
Ells
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