QED, LOL
It's a battle that's going nowhere other than to cause tremendous casualties on our side.
The ones that are seriously wounded what's their thanks from this shower of S**t.
Russia was Napoleon's and Hitlers downfall.This is Ours.
The ones that are seriously wounded what's their thanks from this shower of S**t.
Russia was Napoleon's and Hitlers downfall.This is Ours.
There was a general on the radio a few weeks ago that said the risk of a life-changing injury for those fighting is about 1 in 10 now.
quote:Originally posted by Daniel J*:
There was a general on the radio a few weeks ago that said the risk of a life-changing injury for those fighting is about 1 in 10 now.
And that's high the odds as time goes on will get even shorter.
quote:Originally posted by rusticana:
I don't want to undervalue our troops but just to get some perspective - In the same time as 201 soldiers have died in Afghanistan over 450 people have died on building/construction sites in this country ????
...and of course nobody gives two shits about the families of the estimated 100+ Afghanis, not all of them "evil Taliban" that die for each Briton...or the thousands upon thousands including little children that died or were maimed in Iraq......all so that Americans can drive their gas guzzling cars cheaper.
They don't matter because war is about racism, and they are not like us....f*** 'em!
And how can we begin to estimate the people who are like us...i.e. British, who die because money that could have been better spent on our health service to benefit thousands, is spent on buying planes, helicopters, bombs and guns...again to keep rich American business people in their mansions
quote:Its quite simple really - Do you want the Taliban / Al Queda to infiltrate Pakistan and have nuclear weapons ???
You can't get rid of an idea by bombing people...the more we bomb, the more they hate us, the more the idea spreads to other countries, the more we have to bomb them etc etc etc...simples! not even a tiny country like Northern Ireland could be sorted out that way
When we stop playing Mussolini to America's Hiter, perhaps people will stop wanting to bomb us.....waging these wars increases the likelihood of terrorist attacks in the future, it does not protect us against them.
Plus the less we get involved in other people's wars for oil and business interests, the more defence funds we will actually be able to spend on our own troops equipment in case a war for something real and valid occurs.
Apologies to people here with families/friends in the military if they are offended by any of this. My standpoint will always be to try and put a stop to future families suffering the deaths of their loved ones, not glorifying warfare and encouraging more of it.
End of rant
quote:Originally posted by squiggle:quote:Originally posted by Garage Joe:quote:Originally posted by porto:quote:Originally posted by RENTON:
And i'm saying his decisions have all been sanctioned, agreed with, maybe even pressurised by ... a whole generation of politicians and Govt. officials over the last 10yrs.
its not just him - ever
bull doogie - !! at its highest ;thats crap - he has the final say.
It's more complex than that. Over the years government takes a bipartisan approach to certain events like this one. I'm sure that if Cameron had a problem with the situation he would call an election on it. But he hasn't. He agrees with it. He said so.
Cameron can't call an election, he isn't in power.
They can have a vote of no confidence in Brown as leader citing the Afghan debacle. Simples.
In fact.......
"A motion of no confidence (alternatively vote of no confidence, censure motion, no-confidence motion, or confidence motion) is a parliamentary motion traditionally put before a parliament by the opposition in the hope of defeating a government."
"A motion of no confidence (alternatively vote of no confidence, censure motion, no-confidence motion, or confidence motion) is a parliamentary motion traditionally put before a parliament by the opposition in the hope of defeating a government."
I beleive Gordon Brown made the final desicion to cancel the Helicopters..and I also think of the innocent Families over there who have lost lives too...the whole lot of it is a disgrace
quote:Originally posted by RENTON:
But Porto - you must agree your comments aren't helping though - are they?
we arent out there - frightened young men and women are - and you worry about 'comments ' ????
i detest what Brown has done to this country - people all over the place dozens of foreign languages - and the disrespect given to the Fighting Men and Women of the UK. My comments might offend you - but its my opinion - not intended to.
quote:Originally posted by Bojangles:
Please keep this thread going.We need to get our troops out now.This government are sending our youth to their deaths.How on earth do they think we will win when Russia tried for years and America.The terrain is so hostile it is inpenetrable.Anyone spotted Bin Laden recently?
As much as I admire your reasoning, if the government was to say we are pulling out our troops, what message would that send to the rest of the world and our troops.
The rest of the world would know then that Britain would not help them if things got a bit diificult. And the troops would take it as a defeat and all their sacrifices were for nothing.
quote:Originally posted by luxor:
As much as I admire your reasoning, if the government was to say we are pulling out our troops, what message would that send to the rest of the world and our troops.
The rest of the world would know then that Britain would not help them if things got a bit diificult. And the troops would take it as a defeat and all their sacrifices were for nothing.
I can't see that that would matter..
a) we are supporting the warfare of a country that failed to help us out when we needed it..i.e. America in WW2. We've obviously got over it, so others would too...it's called politics
b) Since when does starting and stopping wars depend on upsetting soldiers' egos?....they are paid to obey orders aren't they?...and a shorter war would save more of their and their friends' lives, a dent to the military's ego is surely a small price to pay for that don't you think??
quote:Originally posted by DanceSettee:quote:Originally posted by luxor:
As much as I admire your reasoning, if the government was to say we are pulling out our troops, what message would that send to the rest of the world and our troops.
The rest of the world would know then that Britain would not help them if things got a bit diificult. And the troops would take it as a defeat and all their sacrifices were for nothing.
I can't see that that would matter..
a) we are supporting the warfare of a country that failed to help us out when we needed it..i.e. America in WW2. We've obviously got over it, so others would too...it's called politics
b) Since when does starting and stopping wars depend on upsetting soldiers' egos?....they are paid to obey orders aren't they?...and a shorter war would save more of their and their friends' lives, a dent to the military's ego is surely a small price to pay for that don't you think??
First of all I think you should check the history of WW2. We were only able to survive due to the assistance of the USA. As an example In 1940 they gave us 50 destroyers so we could better defend our convoys so we did not starve.
Secondly I was not thinking about troops ego's. You can not expect troops to fight knowing that after a few deaths the peace lovers will wail and then the troops will get brought back.
No soldier would put their life on the line knowing that if he died it would be for nothing.
quote:Originally posted by luxor:
First of all I think you should check the history of WW2. We were only able to survive due to the assistance of the USA. As an example In 1940 they gave us 50 destroyers so we could better defend our convoys so we did not starve.
Secondly I was not thinking about troops ego's. You can not expect troops to fight knowing that after a few deaths the peace lovers will wail and then the troops will get brought back.
No soldier would put their life on the line knowing that if he died it would be for nothing.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EL23Aa01.html
I hate like hell to be so pedantic but the states didn't "give" us anything. There were all sorts of complex trades surrounding that time.
A cynic may say that the US of A used the war to successfully broaden the scope of their markets.
The bottom line is always trade and influence.
OMG your not still on about this - surely
I refer my learned friends to the reply i gave some moments ago
QED
I refer my learned friends to the reply i gave some moments ago
QED
quote:Originally posted by RENTON:
OMG your not still on about this - surely
I refer my learned friends to the reply i gave some moments ago
QED
Was that you I saw elsewhere moaning on about Bea? Or were you being ironic in some sorta flippant way? 
quote:The rest of the world would know then that Britain would not help them if things got a bit diificult
Name me one instance where the Brits have 'helped' any nation militarily in the last 40 years.
Why would GBrown give a nut? Plenty of welsh and scottish unemployed of school-leaving age and gullible disposition to go go out and get splattered at no cost to westminster, gawd help them.
Yes Gordon Brown is 
About time our boys came home. No more young soldier's lives should be lost.
About time our boys came home. No more young soldier's lives should be lost.
quote:Originally posted by Butter$:quote:The rest of the world would know then that Britain would not help them if things got a bit diificult
Name me one instance where the Brits have 'helped' any nation militarily in the last 40 years.
All during the 1980s, Reagan and Thatcher sold chemical and other weapons to Saddam Hussein.
I think we did a good job in arming up Bin Laden too but I suspect that he doesn't count as a nation.
quote:Originally posted by Butter$:quote:The rest of the world would know then that Britain would not help them if things got a bit diificult
Name me one instance where the Brits have 'helped' any nation militarily in the last 40 years.
I was talking about the international community. As there are many forms of military help. Peace keeping for one.
quote:Originally posted by Garage Joe:quote:Originally posted by luxor:
First of all I think you should check the history of WW2. We were only able to survive due to the assistance of the USA. As an example In 1940 they gave us 50 destroyers so we could better defend our convoys so we did not starve.
Secondly I was not thinking about troops ego's. You can not expect troops to fight knowing that after a few deaths the peace lovers will wail and then the troops will get brought back.
No soldier would put their life on the line knowing that if he died it would be for nothing.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EL23Aa01.html
I hate like hell to be so pedantic but the states didn't "give" us anything. There were all sorts of complex trades surrounding that time.
A cynic may say that the US of A used the war to successfully broaden the scope of their markets.
The bottom line is always trade and influence.
Be as pedantic as you wish. I know about 'lend lease' but I was using that particular point to emphasise that the US did not adhere strictly to their neutrality status prior to 1941.
Every country that fought along side did not do so because we were brill. India got their independance out of it. Australia because Japan were on their doorstep etc. America is no different.
quote:Originally posted by luxor:quote:Originally posted by Garage Joe:quote:Originally posted by luxor:
First of all I think you should check the history of WW2. We were only able to survive due to the assistance of the USA. As an example In 1940 they gave us 50 destroyers so we could better defend our convoys so we did not starve.
Secondly I was not thinking about troops ego's. You can not expect troops to fight knowing that after a few deaths the peace lovers will wail and then the troops will get brought back.
No soldier would put their life on the line knowing that if he died it would be for nothing.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EL23Aa01.html
I hate like hell to be so pedantic but the states didn't "give" us anything. There were all sorts of complex trades surrounding that time.
A cynic may say that the US of A used the war to successfully broaden the scope of their markets.
The bottom line is always trade and influence.
Be as pedantic as you wish. I know about 'lend lease' but I was using that particular point to emphasise that the US did not adhere strictly to their neutrality status prior to 1941.
Every country that fought along side did not do so because we were brill. India got their independance out of it. Australia because Japan were on their doorstep etc. America is no different.
Sorry! It wasn't a personal attack
I was just trying to bring something to the party.
Quite frankly there's only so much, "Isn't Bea awful!" I can take and this thread lies in my area of interest.
quote:Originally posted by Garage Joe:quote:Originally posted by luxor:quote:Originally posted by Garage Joe:quote:Originally posted by luxor:
First of all I think you should check the history of WW2. We were only able to survive due to the assistance of the USA. As an example In 1940 they gave us 50 destroyers so we could better defend our convoys so we did not starve.
Secondly I was not thinking about troops ego's. You can not expect troops to fight knowing that after a few deaths the peace lovers will wail and then the troops will get brought back.
No soldier would put their life on the line knowing that if he died it would be for nothing.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EL23Aa01.html
I hate like hell to be so pedantic but the states didn't "give" us anything. There were all sorts of complex trades surrounding that time.
A cynic may say that the US of A used the war to successfully broaden the scope of their markets.
The bottom line is always trade and influence.
Be as pedantic as you wish. I know about 'lend lease' but I was using that particular point to emphasise that the US did not adhere strictly to their neutrality status prior to 1941.
Every country that fought along side did not do so because we were brill. India got their independance out of it. Australia because Japan were on their doorstep etc. America is no different.
Sorry! It wasn't a personal attack
I was just trying to bring something to the party.
Quite frankly there's only so much, "Isn't Bea awful!" I can take and this thread lies in my area of interest.
Tis alright GJ I did not take it personally. But it is true there is only so much Bea stinks you can take.
I also enjoy a bit of banter with people who have different views, but trying to make a point with as few words as poss can be frustrating. Especially when R/L keeps interupting your train of thought.
Daddy's Poem
Her hair was up in a pony tail,
her favourite dress tied with a bow
Today was Daddy's Day at school
and she couldn't wait to go.
But her mummy tried to tell her,
that she probably should stay home
Why the kids might not understand,
if she went to school alone.
But she was not afraid,
she knew just what to say
What to tell her classmates
of why he wasn't there today.
But still her mother worried
for her to face this day alone
And was why once again
she tried to keep her daughter home.
But the little girl went to school
eager to tell them all
About a dad she never sees
a dad who never calls.
There were daddies along
the back wall,
for everyone to meet
Children squirming impatiently
anxious in their seats
One by one the teacher called
a student from the class
To introduce their daddy,
as seconds slowly passed.
At last the teacher called her name
every child turned to stare,
Each of them searching
a man who wasn't there.
"Where's her daddy at?"
She heard a boy call out.
"She probably doesn't have one."
another student dared to shout.
And from somewhere near the back.
she heard a daddy say.
"Looks like another deadbeat dad,
too busy to waste his day."
The words did not offend
her,
as she smiled at her Mum
and looked back at the teacher,
who told her to go on
And with hands behind her
back
slowly she began to speak
And out from the mouthof
a child came words incredibly unique.
"My daddy couldn't be here,
because he lives so far away.
But I know he wishes he could be
since this such a special day.
And though you cannot meet him
I wanted you to know
all about my daddy,
and how much he loves me so.
He loved to tell me stories
he taught me to ride a bike
He surprised me with pink roses,
and taught me to fly a kite.
We used to share fudge sundaes,
and icecream in a cone
And though you cannot see him,
I'm not standing here alone.
Cause my daddy's always with me
even though we are apart
I know because he told me
he'll forever be in my heart.
With that her little hand reached up,
and lay across her chest.
Feeling her own heartbeat,
beneath her favourite dress.
And from somewhere in the crowd of dads,
her mother stood in tears.
Proudly watching her daughter,
who was wise beyond her years.
For she stood up for the love
of a man not in her life.
Doing what was best for her
doing what was right.
And when she dropped her hand down,
staring straight into the crowd,
she finished with a voice so soft
but it's message so clear and loud.
"I love my daddy so very much,
he's my shining star
And if he could he'd be here,
but heaven's just too far.
You see he is a soldier
And died just this past year
When a roadside bomb hit his convoy
and taught brave men to fear.
But sometimes when I close my eyes,
It's like he never went away."
And then she closed her eyes
and saw him there that day.
And to her mother's amazement,
she witnessed with surprise.
A room full of daddies and children
all starting to close their eyes.
Who knows what they saw before them
who knows whatthey felt inside
Perhaps for merely a second
they saw him at her side.
"I know you're with me Daddy."
to the silence she called out.
And what happened next made believers
of those once filled with doubt.
Not one in that room could explain it
for each of their eyes had been closed.
But there on the desk beside her,
was a fragrant long stemmed pink rose.
And a child was blessed if only for a moment,
by the love of her shining star.
And given the gift of believing
that heaven is never too far.
Her hair was up in a pony tail,
her favourite dress tied with a bow
Today was Daddy's Day at school
and she couldn't wait to go.
But her mummy tried to tell her,
that she probably should stay home
Why the kids might not understand,
if she went to school alone.
But she was not afraid,
she knew just what to say
What to tell her classmates
of why he wasn't there today.
But still her mother worried
for her to face this day alone
And was why once again
she tried to keep her daughter home.
But the little girl went to school
eager to tell them all
About a dad she never sees
a dad who never calls.
There were daddies along
the back wall,
for everyone to meet
Children squirming impatiently
anxious in their seats
One by one the teacher called
a student from the class
To introduce their daddy,
as seconds slowly passed.
At last the teacher called her name
every child turned to stare,
Each of them searching
a man who wasn't there.
"Where's her daddy at?"
She heard a boy call out.
"She probably doesn't have one."
another student dared to shout.
And from somewhere near the back.
she heard a daddy say.
"Looks like another deadbeat dad,
too busy to waste his day."
The words did not offend
her,
as she smiled at her Mum
and looked back at the teacher,
who told her to go on
And with hands behind her
back
slowly she began to speak
And out from the mouthof
a child came words incredibly unique.
"My daddy couldn't be here,
because he lives so far away.
But I know he wishes he could be
since this such a special day.
And though you cannot meet him
I wanted you to know
all about my daddy,
and how much he loves me so.
He loved to tell me stories
he taught me to ride a bike
He surprised me with pink roses,
and taught me to fly a kite.
We used to share fudge sundaes,
and icecream in a cone
And though you cannot see him,
I'm not standing here alone.
Cause my daddy's always with me
even though we are apart
I know because he told me
he'll forever be in my heart.
With that her little hand reached up,
and lay across her chest.
Feeling her own heartbeat,
beneath her favourite dress.
And from somewhere in the crowd of dads,
her mother stood in tears.
Proudly watching her daughter,
who was wise beyond her years.
For she stood up for the love
of a man not in her life.
Doing what was best for her
doing what was right.
And when she dropped her hand down,
staring straight into the crowd,
she finished with a voice so soft
but it's message so clear and loud.
"I love my daddy so very much,
he's my shining star
And if he could he'd be here,
but heaven's just too far.
You see he is a soldier
And died just this past year
When a roadside bomb hit his convoy
and taught brave men to fear.
But sometimes when I close my eyes,
It's like he never went away."
And then she closed her eyes
and saw him there that day.
And to her mother's amazement,
she witnessed with surprise.
A room full of daddies and children
all starting to close their eyes.
Who knows what they saw before them
who knows whatthey felt inside
Perhaps for merely a second
they saw him at her side.
"I know you're with me Daddy."
to the silence she called out.
And what happened next made believers
of those once filled with doubt.
Not one in that room could explain it
for each of their eyes had been closed.
But there on the desk beside her,
was a fragrant long stemmed pink rose.
And a child was blessed if only for a moment,
by the love of her shining star.
And given the gift of believing
that heaven is never too far.
Get our troops out of Afghanistan NOW.
Anyone else think the elizabeth cross is a cynical attempt by the MOD to shut families up?
We must be listened to.
Three more of our 'HEROES' are due home to-day! Any minute now in fact, they will be honoured, as they all have been, by the people in the small town of Wootton Bassett 
quote:Originally posted by machel:
it is not so much as get our boys and girls out but get the rest of nato in, it's a nato operation but where are they? although i can guess where the frogs are
if there's a fight - the frogs and Italians - are always at the rear - tells you something about them eh ??
thats if they are there at all - *sends white feathers *
Smallest book in the world.Book of Italian war heroes.
quote:Originally posted by porto:quote:Originally posted by machel:
it is not so much as get our boys and girls out but get the rest of nato in, it's a nato operation but where are they? although i can guess where the frogs are
if there's a fight - the frogs and Italians - are always at the rear - tells you something about them eh ??
thats if they are there at all - *sends white feathers *
As far as I remember the French have been victims of one of the worst ambushes in Afghanistan. About a year ago ten were killed, and twenty odd wounded. There were mutilations and other things which we won't mention here.
Meanwhile according to R4 last week the Danes are taking the most pro-rata casualties.
Can't speak for the Italians but very very lazy research, with a slight tinge of generalisation and bigotry on your part.
quote:Originally posted by machel:
it is not so much as get our boys and girls out but get the rest of nato in, it's a nato operation but where are they? although i can guess where the frogs are
This is actually something I would like to see printed up somewhere. How many countries are SUPPOSED to be fighting under the UN banner? How many are actually pulling their weight? Is our perception that we are doing more than our share justified or a myth? I understand that Canada is going to pull its troops out next year? Many things we NEED TO BE TOLD the sooner the better.
History tells us that the war in Afghanistan is unwinnable...our troops have sacrificed enough, bring them home
These are the only figures I can find Squiggle....
In all, 50,700 troops make up ISAF from 18 countries. There are 8330 British troops involved in ISAF. The breakdown is as follows:
ISAF total - 50,700
United States - 20,600 (total number of US troops in Afghanistan is 32,500 including National Guard.)
United Kingdom - 8,330
Germany - 3,310
Canada - 2,830
France 2,730
Italy - 2,350
Netherlands - 1,770
Turkey - 1,300
Poland - 1,600
Australia - 1,080
Spain - 780
Denmark - 750
Romania - 730
Norway - 588
Sweden - 500
Bulgaria - 460
Belgium - 420
Czech Republic - 415
They may be a bit out of date.
In all, 50,700 troops make up ISAF from 18 countries. There are 8330 British troops involved in ISAF. The breakdown is as follows:
ISAF total - 50,700
United States - 20,600 (total number of US troops in Afghanistan is 32,500 including National Guard.)
United Kingdom - 8,330
Germany - 3,310
Canada - 2,830
France 2,730
Italy - 2,350
Netherlands - 1,770
Turkey - 1,300
Poland - 1,600
Australia - 1,080
Spain - 780
Denmark - 750
Romania - 730
Norway - 588
Sweden - 500
Bulgaria - 460
Belgium - 420
Czech Republic - 415
They may be a bit out of date.
The Germans are non-combatants because they aren't allowed to be under post WW2 treaties
quote:Originally posted by Garage Joe:
These are the only figures I can find Squiggle....
In all, 50,700 troops make up ISAF from 18 countries. There are 8330 British troops involved in ISAF. The breakdown is as follows:
ISAF total - 50,700
United States - 20,600 (total number of US troops in Afghanistan is 32,500 including National Guard.)
United Kingdom - 8,330
Germany - 3,310
Canada - 2,830
France 2,730
Italy - 2,350
Netherlands - 1,770
Turkey - 1,300
Poland - 1,600
Australia - 1,080
Spain - 780
Denmark - 750
Romania - 730
Norway - 588
Sweden - 500
Bulgaria - 460
Belgium - 420
Czech Republic - 415
They may be a bit out of date.
Thanks for those figures Joe. Why are we supposed to shoulder at least TWICE the burden of anyone else except the Americans? Especially considering our size relative to some other countries. And I also found it very worrying that Obama said a couple of months ago (which I haven't heard anyone else ever comment upon) "Afghanistan is not OUR war".
quote:Originally posted by Kaytee:
The Germans are non-combatants because they aren't allowed to be under post WW2 treaties
Coalition deaths in Afghanistan by country
USA: 710*
UK: 204
Canada: 126*
Germany: 38
France: 29
Denmark: 26
Spain: 25
Netherlands: 19
Italy: 15
Australia: 11
Romania: 11
Poland: 10
Estonia: 4
Norway: 4
Czech Republic: 3
Latvia: 3
Hungary: 2
Portugal: 2
South Korea: 2
Sweden: 2
Turkey: 2
Belgium: 1
Finland: 1
Lithuania: 1
TOTAL: 1,251
A total of 35 German servicemen and three members of the German GSG 9 special police forces were killed, of which 22 by hostile activities. 126 troops have been wounded in action
My feeling is that enough is enough now. We have done our fair share, some might say more than. It is a UN exercise. Time for us to let others shoulder the burden now and bring our people home.
And also in my paper this morning, talk about troops there to protect those who are laying down an oil pipeline. Don't know if its true or not, but why do I get the feeling of a penny dropping?
And also in my paper this morning, talk about troops there to protect those who are laying down an oil pipeline. Don't know if its true or not, but why do I get the feeling of a penny dropping?