The way I look at it .....and even taking into account that times have changed somewhat .....we managed before we were in Europe , and will manage whichever way the vote goes this time . 

I agree Baz.  There are so many countries making noises about wanting a referendums of their own - even Germany for heavens sake! - why would we want to stay in this crumbling trading bloc when we have the whole of the rest of the world to trade with, including our own friends in the Commonwealth.

Speaks for itself

Letter from Lord Bamford, JCB chairman, to his 6000 employees explaining why he'll Vote Leave.

Dear Colleague

The EU referendum takes place on June 23 and no one can be certain of the outcome. One thing I’m certain of is this: JCB will continue to trade with Europe, irrespective of whether we remain in or leave the EU. JCB was selling into Europe long before the UK joined the Common Market in 1973 and it will remain an important market for JCB.

squiggle posted:

I agree Baz.  There are so many countries making noises about wanting a referendums of their own - even Germany for heavens sake! - why would we want to stay in this crumbling trading bloc when we have the whole of the rest of the world to trade with, including our own friends in the Commonwealth.

My feelings exactly Squiggle  .....I think there is as much danger staying in , as coming out ....more so imho  

Oh and like Lord Bamford , I voted for a Common Market ....nothing more ....instead we have had * mission creep * ......

Having said that ....none of us can understand all the ins and outs .....and the truth is that people listen to whichever arguments suit their own views .....so , as I have said already ....I'm voting with my gut instinct  

Baz posted:

squiggle posted:

I agree Baz.  There are so many countries making noises about wanting a referendums of their own - even Germany for heavens sake! - why would we want to stay in this crumbling trading bloc when we have the whole of the rest of the world to trade with, including our own friends in the Commonwealth.

My feelings exactly Squiggle  .....I think there is as much danger staying in , as coming out ....more so imho  

I agree, David Cameron & Co. have been so busy trying to frighten people into the 'safe option' staying in.  Anyone who does any research at all must realise that there are vast changes in the pipeline, much much more frightening than taking back control of our own destiny, in my opinion.

squiggle posted:

Baz posted:

squiggle posted:

I agree Baz.  There are so many countries making noises about wanting a referendums of their own - even Germany for heavens sake! - why would we want to stay in this crumbling trading bloc when we have the whole of the rest of the world to trade with, including our own friends in the Commonwealth.

My feelings exactly Squiggle  .....I think there is as much danger staying in , as coming out ....more so imho  

I agree, David Cameron & Co. have been so busy trying to frighten people into the 'safe option' staying in.  Anyone who does any research at all must realise that there are vast changes in the pipeline, much much more frightening than taking back control of our own destiny, in my opinion.

squiggle posted:

Baz posted:

squiggle posted:

I agree Baz.  There are so many countries making noises about wanting a referendums of their own - even Germany for heavens sake! - why would we want to stay in this crumbling trading bloc when we have the whole of the rest of the world to trade with, including our own friends in the Commonwealth.

My feelings exactly Squiggle  .....I think there is as much danger staying in , as coming out ....more so imho  

I agree, David Cameron & Co. have been so busy trying to frighten people into the 'safe option' staying in.  Anyone who does any research at all must realise that there are vast changes in the pipeline, much much more frightening than taking back control of our own destiny, in my opinion.

And if we come out....you don't think DC will become more of a dictator than he already is? 

Sprout posted:

squiggle posted:

Baz posted:

squiggle posted:

I agree Baz.  There are so many countries making noises about wanting a referendums of their own - even Germany for heavens sake! - why would we want to stay in this crumbling trading bloc when we have the whole of the rest of the world to trade with, including our own friends in the Commonwealth.

My feelings exactly Squiggle  .....I think there is as much danger staying in , as coming out ....more so imho  

I agree, David Cameron & Co. have been so busy trying to frighten people into the 'safe option' staying in.  Anyone who does any research at all must realise that there are vast changes in the pipeline, much much more frightening than taking back control of our own destiny, in my opinion.

And if we come out....you don't think DC will become more of a dictator than he already is? 

No, not at all .......in fact I don't think he will survive if we do come out  

Baz posted:

No, not at all .......in fact I don't think he will survive if we do come out  

I don't think he will either, but look who's gonna take his place  

Sprout posted:

Baz posted:

No, not at all .......in fact I don't think he will survive if we do come out  

I don't think he will either, but look who's gonna take his place  

You don't know who will take his place , any more than I do It's all speculation ....

Sprout posted:

squiggle posted:

Baz posted:

squiggle posted:

I agree Baz.  There are so many countries making noises about wanting a referendums of their own - even Germany for heavens sake! - why would we want to stay in this crumbling trading bloc when we have the whole of the rest of the world to trade with, including our own friends in the Commonwealth.

My feelings exactly Squiggle  .....I think there is as much danger staying in , as coming out ....more so imho  

I agree, David Cameron & Co. have been so busy trying to frighten people into the 'safe option' staying in.  Anyone who does any research at all must realise that there are vast changes in the pipeline, much much more frightening than taking back control of our own destiny, in my opinion.

And if we come out....you don't think DC will become more of a dictator than he already is? 

I think David Cameron is dead in the water no matter the outcome. He has the credibility of Tony Blair. 

Sprout posted:

Baz posted:

No, not at all .......in fact I don't think he will survive if we do come out  

I don't think he will either, but look who's gonna take his place  

Exactly!  Just looking at the names of the front runners is enough to chill my blood!

Baz posted:

The way I look at it .....and even taking into account that times have changed somewhat .....we managed before we were in Europe , and will manage whichever way the vote goes this time . 

We did.. just like we managed during the war, with rationing, poor housing, no NHS etc.. doesn't mean we'd want to do it again though, does it?       I guess we can manage without paid holiday leave, maternity leave, workers' rights, free health care when you're travelling in Europe ... all those other pesky things Tory governments don't like...

Baz posted:

Sprout posted:

Baz posted:

No, not at all .......in fact I don't think he will survive if we do come out  

I don't think he will either, but look who's gonna take his place  

You don't know who will take his place , any more than I do It's all speculation ....

Still going to be a tory though... 

Kaffs posted:

Baz posted:

The way I look at it .....and even taking into account that times have changed somewhat .....we managed before we were in Europe , and will manage whichever way the vote goes this time . 

We did.. just like we managed during the war, with rationing, poor housing, no NHS etc.. doesn't mean we'd want to do it again though, does it?       I guess we can manage without paid holiday leave, maternity leave, workers' rights, free health care when you're travelling in Europe ... all those other pesky things Tory governments don't like...

I don't think anyone is suggesting we are facing rationing, and I think there are some plans in the offing in the EU for the end of the NHS.  It's all speculation at the moment, if you feel you can trust them.  Well we all have to make our own choices don't we?  I also know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we had paid holiday leave and workers' rights way before we joined the Common Market, as was.

squiggle posted:

Kaffs posted:

Baz posted:

The way I look at it .....and even taking into account that times have changed somewhat .....we managed before we were in Europe , and will manage whichever way the vote goes this time . 

We did.. just like we managed during the war, with rationing, poor housing, no NHS etc.. doesn't mean we'd want to do it again though, does it?       I guess we can manage without paid holiday leave, maternity leave, workers' rights, free health care when you're travelling in Europe ... all those other pesky things Tory governments don't like...

I don't think anyone is suggesting we are facing rationing, and I think there are some plans in the offing in the EU for the end of the NHS.  It's all speculation at the moment, if you feel you can trust them.  Well we all have to make our own choices don't we?  I also know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we had paid holiday leave and workers' rights way before we joined the Common Market, as was.

No, Squiggs, I wasn't suggesting we were facing rationing.. just saying that because we 'managed' bad situations in the past, doesn't mean that we necessarily want to do it again.   As for paid holiday - I'm pretty sure there wasn't a mandatory amount - it was part of a negotiated contract.  Likewise breaks and maximum working hours etc?     As you say though - we all have to vote for what we believe in.    Too many uncertainties for me. 

Baz posted:

Sprout posted:

Baz posted:

No, not at all .......in fact I don't think he will survive if we do come out  

I don't think he will either, but look who's gonna take his place  

You don't know who will take his place , any more than I do It's all speculation ....

........and there's the rub! We have no real idea of how things will go if we stay in and equally we have no real idea of how things'll be if we get out. It's all speculation and hype......and trading on peoples' fears about how good or bad things COULD be  under either choice.

Remember, if it 'could' be bad given a certain circumstance it equally 'could' be not-bad, or even good, given the same circumstance.

Kaffs posted:

Baz posted:

The way I look at it .....and even taking into account that times have changed somewhat .....we managed before we were in Europe , and will manage whichever way the vote goes this time . 

We did.. just like we managed during the war, with rationing, poor housing, no NHS etc.. doesn't mean we'd want to do it again though, does it?       I guess we can manage without paid holiday leave, maternity leave, workers' rights, free health care when you're travelling in Europe ... all those other pesky things Tory governments don't like...

I think it was in the late 50s that we * never had it so good * .....and in the 60s you could walk out of a job one day and into another the next ....and I speak from experience .....and I had paid holidays ....all pre Common Market ....life really wasn't so bleak without the EU ......but like I said , we will all vote with our consciences ....and that's how it should be  

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:

Baz posted:

Sprout posted:

Baz posted:

No, not at all .......in fact I don't think he will survive if we do come out  

I don't think he will either, but look who's gonna take his place  

You don't know who will take his place , any more than I do It's all speculation ....

........and there's the rub! We have no real idea of how things will go if we stay in and equally we have no real idea of how things'll be if we get out. It's all speculation and hype......and trading on peoples' fears about how good or bad things COULD be  under either choice.

Remember, if it 'could' be bad given a certain circumstance it equally 'could' be not-bad, or even good, given the same circumstance.

 

 

 

That's what I think too EFFT ...... 

I am so hacked off with this finger-pointing debate now.  (I'm watching the ITV debate atm) Nothing is informing anyone about the fallout. Having said that I hold Nicola Sturgeon above reproach.   

I've stopped watching now. High horses ain't my thing. 

Xochi posted:

I've stopped watching now. High horses ain't my thing. 

Yup, had to turn over meself! Makes me feel like spoiling my paper to sod the lot of them!

(good to see you Xochs x)

Rexi posted:

Xochi posted:

I've stopped watching now. High horses ain't my thing. 

Yup, had to turn over meself! Makes me feel like spoiling my paper to sod the lot of them!

 

(good to see you Xochs x)

Yep Bazzy.  But I stand by my imperative to vote come what may. i know it was so last century but women died for us. 

Xochi posted:

Rexi posted:

Xochi posted:

I've stopped watching now. High horses ain't my thing. 

Yup, had to turn over meself! Makes me feel like spoiling my paper to sod the lot of them!

 

(good to see you Xochs x)

Yep Bazzy.  But I stand by my imperative to vote come what may. i know it was so last century but women died for us. 

That's Rexi But I agree Xochi  

Baz posted:

Xochi posted:

Rexi posted:

Xochi posted:

I've stopped watching now. High horses ain't my thing. 

Yup, had to turn over meself! Makes me feel like spoiling my paper to sod the lot of them!

 

(good to see you Xochs x)

Yep Bazzy.  But I stand by my imperative to vote come what may. i know it was so last century but women died for us. 

That's Rexi But I agree Xochi  

Hmm ladiezzz ... my take has always been that women died so that us females could have the same voting rights as men ... which means that we could choose whether to vote or not.

not that I would never not vote. Well, I didn't vote for my Police Commissioner and I don't know a single soul who did!

Isn't it exciting? I think it was Napoleon who said that we shouldn't interfere when our enemy was making mistakes. It's fun to see the Tories tear themselves apart over Europe again. 

However the stakes are too high and one finds oneself supporting Tories like Cameron, Blair and Major. Essentially we are in the EC so it's up to the Brexiteers to come up with a reason to leave and a description of how it will all turn out.

All their arguments, the £350 megaspond, the controlling our borders, the being told what to do, and other nonsense have been blown out of the water. But will the GBP recognise this?

The other important point is that no-one was particularly interested in having a referendum. Cameron panicked instead of asking Farrago if he "liked sex and travel."

Rexi posted:

Baz posted:

Xochi posted:

Rexi posted:

Xochi posted:

I've stopped watching now. High horses ain't my thing. 

Yup, had to turn over meself! Makes me feel like spoiling my paper to sod the lot of them!

 

(good to see you Xochs x)

Yep Bazzy.  But I stand by my imperative to vote come what may. i know it was so last century but women died for us. 

That's Rexi But I agree Xochi  

Hmm ladiezzz ... my take has always been that women died so that us females could have the same voting rights as men ... which means that we could choose whether to vote or not.

 

not that I would never not vote. Well, I didn't vote for my Police Commissioner and I don't know a single soul who did!

For me, not voting can in itself be a political action, but it's why you choose not to vote that matters.

Of all the times I've been eligible to vote, I've only not done so twice - both times were for the Police Chief Commissioner elections. This was because I don't agree with the existence of the role in the first place, and therefore I'll have nothing to do with it. The first time, I simply didn't go to the polling station: in the recent election, I wanted to vote in the Local Council election, so I deliberately spoilt my PCC ballot paper (as it turned out, I was one of thousands who did so in my town alone...)

she spoke for me  *warning bad language * 

Dame_Ann_Average posted:

she spoke for me  *warning bad language * 

 

Thanks for the continued discussions l, all points of view are very helpful  

~Sweet Summer~ posted:

Thanks for the continued discussions l, all points of view are very helpful  

I shall be glad when it's all over and we have decided one way or the other. Tbh, I was bored after the first few days. To much rhetoric and too much bullspit 

One side using "scare tactics" and the other side "poo pooing" what they have said . No good hard solid facts. How can either side say what will happen in "x" amount of years time when they can't even get it right twelve months in advance? 

I wish the vote was this week. So want this to be over and done with.

Enthusiastic Contrafibularities posted:

 

I wish the vote was this week. So want this to be over and done with.

Wholeheartedly agree!

I think I've finally decided which way to vote - not that I think it'll change the outcome in any way!

I'm hoping now politicians will argue the facts of the referendum, I've found over the last few years the tone of some  MP's and especially of late leaves a very nasty taste in your mouth. The one thing that may have came out of the tragic death of Jo Cox is how MP's behave and where they lay the blame for their failings and how they should conduct themselves. The points that are crucial to decide the outcome of this referendum have not been discussed by some, it all comes back to immigrants whoever I speak to. I find the rhetoric of the last few years from the right has well and truly backfired....IMO

You can only blame immigrants, the sick, the disabled and the unemployed for so long until people see through it...Polly Toynbee wrote a piece today that goes part way to what many of us have been saying for years... I'm also pleased that the new poster of Farage's is being looked at by the police for inciting racial hatred....A conversation I had at lunchtime with a friend and a local reporter friend of mine was quite interesting... she's limited with what she can print, but her parting words to us were " which way we are going we're all heading for a handcart to hell" and we both agreed. 

http://www.theguardian.com/com...-ugly-mp-dead-jo-cox

Dame_Ann_Average posted:

 

I'm hoping now politicians will argue the facts of the referendum, I've found over the last few years the tone of some  MP's and especially of late leaves a very nasty taste in your mouth. The one thing that may have came out of the tragic death of Jo Cox is how MP's behave and where they lay the blame for their failings and how they should conduct themselves. The points that are crucial to decide the outcome of this referendum have not been discussed by some, it all comes back to immigrants whoever I speak to. I the rhetoric of the last few years from the right as well and truly backfired....IMO

You can only blame immigrants, the sick, the disabled and the unemployed for so long until people see through it...Polly Toynbee wrote a piece today that goes part way to what many of us have been saying for years... I'm also pleased that the new poster of Farage's is being looked at by the police for inciting racial hatred....A conversation I had at lunchtime with a friend and a local reporter friend of mine was quite interesting... she's limited with what she can print, but her parting words to us were " which way we are going we're all heading for a handcart to hell" and we both agreed. 

http://www.theguardian.com/com...-ugly-mp-dead-jo-cox