Sprout posted:

Moonie posted:

You can't keep having referenda just because you don't agree with the result. What sort of democracy is that?

I don't agree with the result.......when people didn't know what they were voting for 

Surely it is up to "us" to find out why we are voting and not trust "them" to tell us the "truth" they never do anyway...

Baz posted:

Sprout posted:

Baz posted:

Sprout posted:

"In November, the situation may have totally changed. According to polls, a million vote leavers appear to have changed their mind, that could be five million by the November."

 

Which bears out my reasoning that a lot of people didn't think about what they were voting for and what we would lose 

Depends on where you got the info from Sprout ? Bit like the petition .....which has already had ten of thousands of names removed cos of fraud  

Sweet's link, although I forgot to link to it myself     Tens of thousands....it was up to 3 mill anyway....drop in the ocean    just shows the consensus of opinion 

They haven't finished checking it yet They reckon Bots have been used ....

Ok if the right amount is found, I'll take it 

Sprout posted:

Moonie posted:

You can't keep having referenda just because you don't agree with the result. What sort of democracy is that?

I don't agree with the result.......when people didn't know what they were voting for 

But how do you know  how many of those voting Remain knew either ..... 

Moonie posted:

Sprout posted:

Moonie posted:

You can't keep having referenda just because you don't agree with the result. What sort of democracy is that?

I don't agree with the result.......when people didn't know what they were voting for 

Surely it is up to "us" to find out why we are voting and not trust "them" to tell us the "truth" they never do anyway...

YES!! but some people didn't do that! 

Baz posted:

Sprout posted:

Moonie posted:

You can't keep having referenda just because you don't agree with the result. What sort of democracy is that?

I don't agree with the result.......when people didn't know what they were voting for 

But how do you know  how many of those voting Remain knew either ..... 

Surely you go with what you have rather than plunging everyone into an abyss.  We could've always asked to be out again at a later stage.

I still maintain a lot of it was against the government and about racism rather than the question of the time 

Sprout posted:

Moonie posted:

Sprout posted:

Moonie posted:

You can't keep having referenda just because you don't agree with the result. What sort of democracy is that?

I don't agree with the result.......when people didn't know what they were voting for 

Surely it is up to "us" to find out why we are voting and not trust "them" to tell us the "truth" they never do anyway...

YES!! but some people didn't do that! 

I did

Jen-Star posted:

Sprout posted:

Moonie posted:

Sprout posted:

Moonie posted:

You can't keep having referenda just because you don't agree with the result. What sort of democracy is that?

I don't agree with the result.......when people didn't know what they were voting for 

Surely it is up to "us" to find out why we are voting and not trust "them" to tell us the "truth" they never do anyway...

YES!! but some people didn't do that! 

I did

I'm not denying you Jen, but when I see, as I have done people on TV being interviewed in the street and asked why they voted out, they told the reporter they didn't know why, totally skews the result if you ask me 

Sprout posted:

Baz posted:

Sprout posted:

Moonie posted:

You can't keep having referenda just because you don't agree with the result. What sort of democracy is that?

I don't agree with the result.......when people didn't know what they were voting for 

But how do you know  how many of those voting Remain knew either ..... 

Surely you go with what you have rather than plunging everyone into an abyss.  We could've always asked to be out again at a later stage.

I still maintain a lot of it was against the government and about racism rather than the question of the time 

I think it was more about people being fed up with having their lives run by the unelected barons of Brussels ....or words to that effect The truth is there are probably a myriad of reasons both sides voted the way they did ....doesn't change the result . 

Baz posted:

I think it was more about people being fed up with having their lives run by the unelected barons of Brussels ....or words to that effect The truth is there are probably a myriad of reasons both sides voted the way they did ....doesn't change the result . 

No!   It's governments that make the rules! 

Heads off up the hills to Bedfordshire, nite nite everyone 

Baz posted:

Sprout posted:

Baz posted:

Sprout posted:

"In November, the situation may have totally changed. According to polls, a million vote leavers appear to have changed their mind, that could be five million by the November."

 

Which bears out my reasoning that a lot of people didn't think about what they were voting for and what we would lose 

Depends on where you got the info from Sprout ? Bit like the petition .....which has already had ten of thousands of names removed cos of fraud  

Sweet's link, although I forgot to link to it myself     Tens of thousands....it was up to 3 mill anyway....drop in the ocean    just shows the consensus of opinion 

They haven't finished checking it yet They reckon Bots have been used ....

2,371 signatures from The Vatican City alone!

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2...uffing_ref_petition/

Sprout posted:

Jen-Star posted:

Sprout posted:

Moonie posted:

Sprout posted:

Moonie posted:

You can't keep having referenda just because you don't agree with the result. What sort of democracy is that?

I don't agree with the result.......when people didn't know what they were voting for 

Surely it is up to "us" to find out why we are voting and not trust "them" to tell us the "truth" they never do anyway...

YES!! but some people didn't do that! 

I did

I'm not denying you Jen, but when I see, as I have done people on TV being interviewed in the street and asked why they voted out, they told the reporter they didn't know why, totally skews the result if you ask me 

Well no, as there will have been people who voted to remain without any research at all so they would surely cancel each other out somewhat?

velvet donkey posted:

Carnelian posted:

Baz posted:

Carnelian , for the record , if you read my posts properly , I never called you obnoxious , I said some of the views being expressed were obnoxious ....e.g. hoping that baby boomers lost their pension pots , calling Brexiters idiots , and traitors to their country etc. .....and I stand by that . 

Why is it obnoxious when a load of affluent old people who enjoyed free education, low house prices which they've made huge profits on, social mobility, rising living standards voted to curb the life chances of young people and have imposed on 16 year olds something they'll have to live with for decades but couldn't vote for?

 

The younger generation just seem to have all the burdens and none of the goodies.

 

I do hope their pensions are hit.  It would be karma for how they've thwarted life chances of the younger generation.  Obviously there are poor pensioners, struggling pensioners and even pensioners who are doing ok and have worked and deserve what they've got.  I certainly wouldn't wish a reversal on what funds they have.  I hope their lives improve, but sadly now the vicious market obsessed right are in change, they'll get hammered too.  I don't hate the old at all, I just think the affluent old, who did so well out of the state in their day, are being far too selfish.  They have a reversal coming to them.  

 

This government has been robbing the young to cater for their ageing affluent voter base.  All the cuts have gone to the young while the freebies the affluent old enjoy, remained ring fenced.  

 

I'm sorry, there needs to be some generational fairness because today's young won't have the pensions, the job security, the bricks and mortar equity that many of today's old enjoy.  

 

Maybe some of these affluent old people you appear to despise took their opportunities and actually put the effort in over the course of their lives to get to where they are in retirement.

Oh of course, they created two property booms by sheer hard work!  Nothing to do with successive neo-liberal governments, dismantling the welfare state for shareholder profit, selling off the family silver, not building enough homes!

Yes, they took their opportunities, and have consistently voted to close the door on those same opportunities to the young.

Don't give me that 'put the effort in', the baby boomer generations were NO MORE hard working than any other generation.  Spare me the generational bigotry.  

If you were around in the 60s and 70s or read up on those eras, you'd know there was strong public animosity towards the unemployed and certainly the attitudes of the young - yet apparently that opinion has been revised by Baby boomers to the view that every single person of that generation was hard working in the 60s and 70s.

Rubbish!

I am now able to reveal that we weren't hard working compared to current generations. It's well worth pointing out that we had the best of everything; trade union protection, defined working hours, benefits, defined pensions and so on.

It has been shocking to watch subsequent generations throw it all away.

That/those post(s) fill the whole of my screen 

I've been called worse!

It's really making the news at the moment. Despite calls the to contrary, it looks like May is not for turning!

I don't think she was ever an 'innee' anyway. She goes with the flow of the time when she thinks it's right  

May is already talking about letting the MP's vote, although two days ago she said not. Tell you what, if we don;t sort this out we are seriously screwed and for many years to come. 

No plan, not a clue what we are doing and other countries already advising  firms not to sign contracts here 

Dame_Ann_Average posted:

 

May is already talking about letting the MP's vote, although two days ago she said not. Tell you what, if we don;t sort this out we are seriously screwed and for many years to come. 

 

No plan, not a clue what we are doing and other countries already advising  firms not to sign contracts here 

I'm surprised that no-one commented on two of today's newspaper front pages!

Daily Mail

"Damn the unpatriotic Bremoaners and their plot to subvert the will of the British people."

Daily Express

"Time to silence EU Exit whingers."

Völkischer Beobachter

"Erste maßnahmen der Reichsregierung Hitler"

I'm just watching the newspaper review for tomorrow on Sky News Joe, saying more or less the same 

What annoys me is that the day after the vote I saw people being interviewed on TV saying that they'd voted out but now had changed their minds.....how many more did that?   That's why I would like another vote and if it's still the same, out, then I'll abide by it (although I'll have a hard time accepting it) 

I was thinking more in terms about them wanting to damn me or silence me. It's a bit 1933 Germany for us. About this time one set of Germans tried to silence another set of Germans. Call me old fashioned but.

Watched the business news this morning it was quite Brexit heavy in content.

The pound losing 18% in value since the result.

Unilever now using Brexit as an excuse to stick an additional 10% on the price of their products, that's 10% to Tescos, not us. But we would obviously feel the effects.

There was a piece about how we have a commitment to pay Europe 10's of Billions which we are obligated to do.

It seems to becoming even more evident that the pro exit group were masking the truth when it came to how much we would save exiting. From the reports I saw this morning the economic forecast for the UK is pretty bleak.

All along I was calling for good independent facts on the consequences of leaving the EU, not information from the two camps. It seems we were let down big style.

They need to haul some of the big mouth Brexiteers onto the tellybox and have them grilled about life post Brexit.

We gave you all the facts about Brexit EC!

'Member I kept banging on about a crisis of hegemony! : smug :

We predicted the dangers to the economy too!

And now it serms Unilever have caved in - a bit!

Sorry EC, the facts were out there and I am not suprised at the way we're going, not in the slightest. 

I think the first clue would be voting along with Gove, Farage or Johnston... that would have been a massive warning for me. I did post in here disproving their promises and that they were not possible.

The reason the working class voted for Brexit was for change, thinking a risk was better than what they were having to live with. Sadly, things are going to get very much worse. IMO most of the electorate were,1) too lazy to find out the facts, 2) were completely baffled by the whole thing ,3) the fear factor printed by the likes of The Sun, Mail, Telegraph and the disgusting stirring of xenophobia... why a massive amount of Tories voted leave was beyond me, Camerons biggest and most idiotic thing he ever did...that was confirmed today when he came third bottom in the worst Prime Ministers in modern history...not that I needed anyone to tell me that!

I spent four hours on Saturday with 12 other people and my MEP, I can honestly say she wasn't trying to put the fear of god into anyone...but if something isn't done quickly we are up sh*ts creek without a paddle. It was the most interesting four hours I have spent in a long while and if our MEP hadn't to catch a train for a meeting I am convinced we would have sat all night. 

May wants hard Brexit and that means leaving the single market...when do the delusional realise we are not Great Britain any more! Now Donald Tusk has said it's hard Brexit or no Brexit, May/ Johnston don't seem to grasp the fact we are in no position to barter....

The rhetoric that we've had over that last six years is to blame everyone and everything for the plight of our country...that fact of the matter is, the Tories have been thoroughly incompetent... deficit up doubled, employment just above levels of 2008 and that's without nearly a million zero hour contracts and the massive amount of people taken off the unemployment lists. It's very simple when you look at the figures and facts, blaming immigrants for jobs, NHS and the likes certainly backfired. 

Anthony Hilton once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was opposed to the EU...Murdoch's reply  “That’s easy,” he replied. “When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.”

The answers are always out there. 

Dame_Ann_Average posted:

 

Sorry EC, the facts were out there and I am not suprised at the way we're going, not in the slightest. 

I think the first clue would be voting along with Gove, Farage or Johnston... that would have been a massive warning for me. I did post in here disproving their promises and that they were not possible.

 

The reason the working class voted for Brexit was for change, thinking a risk was better than what they were having to live with. Sadly, things are going to get very much worse. IMO most of the electorate were,1) too lazy to find out the facts, 2) were completely baffled by the whole thing ,3) the fear factor printed by the likes of The Sun, Mail, Telegraph and the disgusting stirring of xenophobia... why a massive amount of Tories voted leave was beyond me, Camerons biggest and most idiotic thing he ever did...that was confirmed today when he came third bottom in the worst Prime Ministers in modern history...not that I needed anyone to tell me that!

 

 

I spent four hours on Saturday with 12 other people and my MEP, I can honestly say she wasn't trying to put the fear of god into anyone...but if something isn't done quickly we are up sh*ts creek without a paddle. It was the most interesting four hours I have spent in a long while and if our MEP hadn't to catch a train for a meeting I am convinced we would have sat all night. 

 

May wants hard Brexit and that means leaving the single market...when do the delusional realise we are not Great Britain any more! Now Donald Tusk has said it's hard Brexit or no Brexit, May/ Johnston don't seem to grasp the fact we are in no position to barter....

 

The rhetoric that we've had over that last six years is to blame everyone and everything for the plight of our country...that fact of the matter is, the Tories have been thoroughly incompetent... deficit up doubled, employment just above levels of 2008 and that's without nearly a million zero hour contracts and the massive amount of people taken off the unemployment lists. It's very simple when you look at the figures and facts, blaming immigrants for jobs, NHS and the likes certainly backfired. 

Anthony Hilton once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was opposed to the EU...Murdoch's reply  “That’s easy,” he replied. “When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.”

 

The answers are always out there. 

I don't think they were, for everyone.

It was like like trying to grab an eel with greasy hands.

I tried to absorb as much info as In could and was always going to vote Remain mainly because they was always a comment from one side and a counter from the other, but never a compelling argument to leave.

When it comes to our ties to Europe, there is not a hope in hell I would ever find or understand what will happen and I doubt any member of the public could, it's far too complex, clearly demonstrated by how many people are going to be involved in unpicking ourselves from Europe.

What we the public needed was independent information, information that is understandable to everyone across society, that information was not there and has already been said, people voted without really understanding why. 

Enthusiastic Contrafibularities posted:

Dame_Ann_Average posted:

 

Sorry EC, the facts were out there and I am not suprised at the way we're going, not in the slightest. 

I think the first clue would be voting along with Gove, Farage or Johnston... that would have been a massive warning for me. I did post in here disproving their promises and that they were not possible.

 

The reason the working class voted for Brexit was for change, thinking a risk was better than what they were having to live with. Sadly, things are going to get very much worse. IMO most of the electorate were,1) too lazy to find out the facts, 2) were completely baffled by the whole thing ,3) the fear factor printed by the likes of The Sun, Mail, Telegraph and the disgusting stirring of xenophobia... why a massive amount of Tories voted leave was beyond me, Camerons biggest and most idiotic thing he ever did...that was confirmed today when he came third bottom in the worst Prime Ministers in modern history...not that I needed anyone to tell me that!

 

 

I spent four hours on Saturday with 12 other people and my MEP, I can honestly say she wasn't trying to put the fear of god into anyone...but if something isn't done quickly we are up sh*ts creek without a paddle. It was the most interesting four hours I have spent in a long while and if our MEP hadn't to catch a train for a meeting I am convinced we would have sat all night. 

 

May wants hard Brexit and that means leaving the single market...when do the delusional realise we are not Great Britain any more! Now Donald Tusk has said it's hard Brexit or no Brexit, May/ Johnston don't seem to grasp the fact we are in no position to barter....

 

The rhetoric that we've had over that last six years is to blame everyone and everything for the plight of our country...that fact of the matter is, the Tories have been thoroughly incompetent... deficit up doubled, employment just above levels of 2008 and that's without nearly a million zero hour contracts and the massive amount of people taken off the unemployment lists. It's very simple when you look at the figures and facts, blaming immigrants for jobs, NHS and the likes certainly backfired. 

Anthony Hilton once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was opposed to the EU...Murdoch's reply  “That’s easy,” he replied. “When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.”

 

The answers are always out there. 

 

I don't think they were, for everyone.

 

It was like like trying to grab an eel with greasy hands.

 

I tried to absorb as much info as In could and was always going to vote Remain mainly because they was always a comment from one side and a counter from the other, but never a compelling argument to leave.

 

When it comes to our ties to Europe, there is not a hope in hell I would ever find or understand what will happen and I doubt any member of the public could, it's far too complex, clearly demonstrated by how many people are going to be involved in unpicking ourselves from Europe.

 

What we the public needed was independent information, information that is understandable to everyone across society, that information was not there and has already been said, people voted without really understanding why. 

Well we had enough warning that there was a vote coming up.......down to people to search out the info before making their decision? 

Yes, I get it,  you wouldn't get all the facts but enough to make people think surely? 

Enthusiastic Contrafibularities posted:

 

I don't think they were, for everyone.

 

It was like like trying to grab an eel with greasy hands.

 

I tried to absorb as much info as In could and was always going to vote Remain mainly because they was always a comment from one side and a counter from the other, but never a compelling argument to leave.

 

When it comes to our ties to Europe, there is not a hope in hell I would ever find or understand what will happen and I doubt any member of the public could, it's far too complex, clearly demonstrated by how many people are going to be involved in unpicking ourselves from Europe.

 

What we the public needed was independent information, information that is understandable to everyone across society, that information was not there and has already been said, people voted without really understanding why. 

to be fair EC, it was quite easy to disprove the promises made by Johnston/ Gove/ Farage.

Some voted because they were ignorant of the facts which is true, some voted because they are xenophobic, proven by the 40% rise in reported racist crimes since brexit and some voted because they wanted out country back...from where 

That is why we need to have a vote on how to leave, we are in a awful mess now without even invoking Article 50 

The Sunday Times for a Murdoch paper was consistently off message.

Their journalists were queuing up to warn about Brexit even to their "in a nutshell" argument.

"You are in a huge tariff free single market. Vote Brexit and you won't be."

What's confusing about that?!

Boris Johnson's previously unpublished 'pro-EU' column revealed

Boris Johnson said the UK remaining in the EU would be a "boon for the world and for Europe", a previously unpublished newspaper column reveals.

He wrote the column in February, along with a pro-Brexit article that was later published in the Telegraph.

Mr Johnson subsequently became a leading figure in the campaign to leave the European Union.

The Sunday Times has published the pro-Remain column, which it says Mr Johnson wrote to clarify his thoughts.

In it he warned that Brexit could lead to an economic shock, Scottish independence and Russian aggression. 

The foreign secretary had previously admitted to writing the piece but its contents had not been known.

Just think: if Boris hadn't joined the Brexit campaign, we'd be calling him "Nostradamus" Johnson after this week, whereas now we're left wondering why he didn't follow his own advice!

It's not all bad though... just heard Priti Patel on radio reassuring everyone they're focused on delivering with the British people voted for.   So they must be looking for that £350m for the NHS, right....?

Kaffs posted:

It's not all bad though... just heard Priti Patel on radio reassuring everyone they're focused on delivering with the British people voted for.   So they must be looking for that £350m for the NHS, right....?

you mean this and then they announce cuts....when are people going to say enough!

It's looking a little more hopeful after today. Apparently our sovereign parliament will have a vote on the negotiations. I'm hoping they'll win the day and vote before the article 50 nonsense.

The baffled Brexiteers are still unable to find any answers about why, when or how.

Garage Joe posted:

It's looking a little more hopeful after today. Apparently our sovereign parliament will have a vote on the negotiations. I'm hoping they'll win the day and vote before the article 50 nonsense.

The baffled Brexiteers are still unable to find any answers about why, when or how.

Twas always thus. They just wanted us out and the current situation bears that out 

velvet donkey posted:

Lets see what next years Euro elections bring.

There'll no doubt be an argument about whether we should get a vote in it since we're on our way out!

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/...PRmx&ocid=TSHDHP