Like ID cards, I'm in two minds about this. My biggest concerns with it are potential human error & cloning.
What do you think?
What do you think?
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Don't like the idea myself....my reasons are more do with the government gaining too much control over our lives as it is - rather than errors being made etc.
I really do detest the idea of becoming a society such as George Orwell imagined.
I really do detest the idea of becoming a society such as George Orwell imagined.
I'm against, although I don't have a problem with convicted criminals being sampled and stored.
I can see the arguments for a DNA database, but I'm concerned at the motivation behind it. When government chappie today explaining why they were keeping innocent people's DNA for longer said it was because it would be easier to catch those who "re-offend".
Excuse me? They are innocent of any offence, so how can they "re-offend"? I think that reveals the attitude from the powers-that-be - that we're all guilty of something, it's just a matter of nailing us.
ID cards are an expensive waste of time. All the information anyone needs can already be found on their passport or driving licence. It won't cut fraud - it will just be another bit of documentation that can be faked.
It won't stop terrorists - the 9/11 lot travelled on their own, valid passports and the 7/7-ers carried theirs with them so everyone would know who they were.
Excuse me? They are innocent of any offence, so how can they "re-offend"? I think that reveals the attitude from the powers-that-be - that we're all guilty of something, it's just a matter of nailing us.
ID cards are an expensive waste of time. All the information anyone needs can already be found on their passport or driving licence. It won't cut fraud - it will just be another bit of documentation that can be faked.
It won't stop terrorists - the 9/11 lot travelled on their own, valid passports and the 7/7-ers carried theirs with them so everyone would know who they were.
I have not thought about it in real depth but I personally would be okay with it I have nothing to hide.
quote:Originally posted by Demantoid:
Excuse me? They are innocent of any offence, so how can they "re-offend"? I think that reveals the attitude from the powers-that-be - that we're all guilty of something, it's just a matter of nailing us.
Exactly... big fat no on the whole thing from me
and a big fat no to ID cards too 
quote:Originally posted by Garage Joe:
I'm against, although I don't have a problem with convicted criminals being sampled and stored.
completely agree.......but another of my concerns is that it smacks of even more Big Brother type monitoring (and I don't mean the Davina kind
)Yes but your DNA might??quote:Originally posted by Marguerita:
I have not thought about it in real depth but I personally would be okay with it I have nothing to hide.
The other issue that bothers me is, even if our present government's motives are completely innocent, we have no way of knowing what use any future administrations will make of ID cards and DNA databases.
Once these mechanisms are put in place, we're at the mercy of whoever has the power to use or abuse them.
Once these mechanisms are put in place, we're at the mercy of whoever has the power to use or abuse them.
Can't trust the powers that be with ANYTHING! They'll be micro-chipping us next! 
They'll be micro-chipping us next! 
Hmmm.. I'm ok with it, but with stringent saftey measures and the whatnot.
I am an
and I never do anything wrong anyways.
I am an
and I never do anything wrong anyways. quote:Originally posted by Demantoid:
The other issue that bothers me is, even if our present government's motives are completely innocent, we have no way of knowing what use any future administrations will make of ID cards and DNA databases.
Once these mechanisms are put in place, we're at the mercy of whoever has the power to use or abuse them.
Yup..once these things are put in place there will be no taking them back.
The government also doesn't seem to be big on discussing or revealing their secret plans for our personal info' until it's actually due to happen. This means it's all happening via the backdoor....which is even more worrying as who knows what is being stored and monitored.
For..I don't think they'd want to clone me.. 
..unless it was for lab tests.... 
..unless it was for lab tests....
I am all for it, as long as you have nothing to hide, then you should not have a problem.
Once it's big enough then the police will use it for fishing trips, and I'm not talking about a weekend away at Rutland Water either. They probably already do. Also, if someone in your family has committed a crime then their DNA will point in your direction too. It's not 100% fail proof. The end result will be a shifting of the onus on you to eliminate yourself from any police enquiries. If you can't and your face (or race, or nationality, or political views) fits then you may find yourself stitched up.
Also, if the DNA database is big enough I can see the government selling it off for genetic reseach purposes which might be fine if it was just that. But what about if they sell it to medical insurance companies and they refuse to insure certain people? What if you're genetically prone to a disease or condition a less benign government wants to eradicate? What if a future government decides it likes the idea of eugenics (again)?
The data will probably end up on the National Identity Register anyway, and therefore the ID cards. Anyone seen the film Gattaca?
Also, if the DNA database is big enough I can see the government selling it off for genetic reseach purposes which might be fine if it was just that. But what about if they sell it to medical insurance companies and they refuse to insure certain people? What if you're genetically prone to a disease or condition a less benign government wants to eradicate? What if a future government decides it likes the idea of eugenics (again)?
The data will probably end up on the National Identity Register anyway, and therefore the ID cards. Anyone seen the film Gattaca?
quote:Originally posted by Marguerita:
I have not thought about it in real depth but I personally would be okay with it I have nothing to hide.
That's pretty much how I feel about it Marguerita.
quote:Originally posted by parmnion:
I am all for it, as long as you have nothing to hide, then you should not have a problem.
I've been to the Anne Frank house. Even if people feel they've nothing to hide then they might have to hide themselves.
quote:Originally posted by The Devil In Diamante:
Can't trust the powers that be with ANYTHING!
That's not such a bad idea - microchip everyone at birth.
After all, we do it with our animals, so why not humans eh?
I don't think it's about being worried because you have anything to hide...it's more about the elite having information with which to manipulate us all with. Such as Phorm technology which will/can/does trace your online activities and target the type of advertising you receive.
What other info' are they storing? Who has access to this stuff? How safe are my personal online surfing details (IP) etc?? Can any old twonk with a grudge decide to ruin my life by goofing up my credit rating....removing me from the electoral roll so I don't exist in governmental/banking/societal terms.
How safe are my kids details through Child benefit databases....yup the ones they lost...who has them??
Nah, all too risky in my eyes.
What other info' are they storing? Who has access to this stuff? How safe are my personal online surfing details (IP) etc?? Can any old twonk with a grudge decide to ruin my life by goofing up my credit rating....removing me from the electoral roll so I don't exist in governmental/banking/societal terms.
How safe are my kids details through Child benefit databases....yup the ones they lost...who has them??
Nah, all too risky in my eyes.
The ID database and the DNA database are just symptoms of the same fault. They assume a role for the state and a relationship between the state and the citizen that is different to the one it has now.
We're individual people. Diverse people. People with our own goals and aspirations. The role of the state is simply to manage the things that individuals themselves can't manage. The state is the servant of the people. We're not servants of the state. That's what it means to live in a liberal democracy.
Carrying ID cards, state monitoring of email, internet use, and telephone calls, central collection of personal information, needing permission from the state to do stuff such as protesting in public over issues: these are all the sort of things totalitarian states require.
The basis of how we live and interact is being slowly but fundamentally changed here. It's insidious and corrosive. And it'll be too late soon to do anything about it. This is what we're leaving for our children and grandchildren. They'll probably wonder what on earth we were thinking, like people now wonder what people in Germany in the 1930s were thinking to allow that state to develop there.
We're individual people. Diverse people. People with our own goals and aspirations. The role of the state is simply to manage the things that individuals themselves can't manage. The state is the servant of the people. We're not servants of the state. That's what it means to live in a liberal democracy.
Carrying ID cards, state monitoring of email, internet use, and telephone calls, central collection of personal information, needing permission from the state to do stuff such as protesting in public over issues: these are all the sort of things totalitarian states require.
The basis of how we live and interact is being slowly but fundamentally changed here. It's insidious and corrosive. And it'll be too late soon to do anything about it. This is what we're leaving for our children and grandchildren. They'll probably wonder what on earth we were thinking, like people now wonder what people in Germany in the 1930s were thinking to allow that state to develop there.
quote:Originally posted by Daniel J*:
The ID database and the DNA database are just symptoms of the same fault. They assume a role for the state and a relationship between the state and the citizen that is different to the one it has now.
We're individual people. Diverse people. People with our own goals and aspirations. The role of the state is simply to manage the things that individuals themselves can't manage. The state is the servant of the people. We're not servants of the state. That's what it means to live in a liberal democracy.
Carrying ID cards, state monitoring of email, internet use, and telephone calls, central collection of personal information, needing permission from the state to do stuff such as protesting in public over issues: these are all the sort of things totalitarian states require.
The basis of how we live and interact is being slowly but fundamentally changed here. It's insidious and corrosive. And it'll be too late soon to do anything about it. This is what we're leaving for our children and grandchildren. They'll probably wonder what on earth we were thinking, like people now wonder what people in Germany in the 1930s were thinking to allow that state to develop there.
Now ....that's ^^^ what I was trying to say!
Well said Daniel.
quote:Originally posted by Daniel J*:
Once it's big enough then the police will use it for fishing trips, and I'm not talking about a weekend away at Rutland Water either. They probably already do. Also, if someone in your family has committed a crime then their DNA will point in your direction too. It's not 100% fail proof. The end result will be a shifting of the onus on you to eliminate yourself from any police enquiries. If you can't and your face (or race, or nationality, or political views) fits then you may find yourself stitched up.
Also, if the DNA database is big enough I can see the government selling it off for genetic reseach purposes which might be fine if it was just that. But what about if they sell it to medical insurance companies and they refuse to insure certain people? What if you're genetically prone to a disease or condition a less benign government wants to eradicate? What if a future government decides it likes the idea of eugenics (again)?
The data will probably end up on the National Identity Register anyway, and therefore the ID cards. Anyone seen the film Gattaca?
yes i've watched gattaca, i was just trying to think of the name. aren't there companies already racing for the 'rights' to peoples dna?
think there was a programme awhile back, where it would be patented and owned by a company. might be a bit futuristic, something to do with medical conditions. they were talking about the 'insurance' abuse that could ensue.
DanielJ, take a bow! 
quote:Originally posted by Daniel J*:
The ID database and the DNA database are just symptoms of the same fault. They assume a role for the state and a relationship between the state and the citizen that is different to the one it has now.
We're individual people. Diverse people. People with our own goals and aspirations. The role of the state is simply to manage the things that individuals themselves can't manage. The state is the servant of the people. We're not servants of the state. That's what it means to live in a liberal democracy.
Carrying ID cards, state monitoring of email, internet use, and telephone calls, central collection of personal information, needing permission from the state to do stuff such as protesting in public over issues: these are all the sort of things totalitarian states require.
The basis of how we live and interact is being slowly but fundamentally changed here. It's insidious and corrosive. And it'll be too late soon to do anything about it. This is what we're leaving for our children and grandchildren. They'll probably wonder what on earth we were thinking, like people now wonder what people in Germany in the 1930s were thinking to allow that state to develop there.
Because that is so scary ... Can you imajin Hitler with every one taggedquote:Originally posted by HyacinthB:quote:Originally posted by The Devil In Diamante:
Can't trust the powers that be with ANYTHING!
That's not such a bad idea - microchip everyone at birth.
After all, we do it with our animals, so why not humans eh?
I can understand why people who haven't done anything wrong feel uncomfortable about being on the database because the reason for having a database is wholly skewed towards criminality and the police appear to be building a complete national database on the sly.
I am a bit conflicted on the issue as it seems to be a very handy tool in catching criminals on the one hand, on the other hand there's good civil libertarian arguments, effectively summarised by Daniel J, against.
I do think there should be some sort of national debate followed by a binding referendum as to whether we want it or not.
I am a bit conflicted on the issue as it seems to be a very handy tool in catching criminals on the one hand, on the other hand there's good civil libertarian arguments, effectively summarised by Daniel J, against.
I do think there should be some sort of national debate followed by a binding referendum as to whether we want it or not.
quote:Originally posted by Marguerita:
I have not thought about it in real depth but I personally would be okay with it I have nothing to hide.
The exception being medical information which insurance companies will use to boost your premiums and lower pensions and payouts.
Once one group starts storing it, it opens the door for everybugger to get in there.
quote:Originally posted by Deegs:
Like ID cards, I'm in two minds about this. My biggest concerns with it are potential human error & cloning.
What do you think?
100% for!!
quote:Originally posted by Daniel J*:
Once it's big enough then the police will use it for fishing trips, and I'm not talking about a weekend away at Rutland Water either. They probably already do. Also, if someone in your family has committed a crime then their DNA will point in your direction too. It's not 100% fail proof. The end result will be a shifting of the onus on you to eliminate yourself from any police enquiries. If you can't and your face (or race, or nationality, or political views) fits then you may find yourself stitched up.
Also, if the DNA database is big enough I can see the government selling it off for genetic reseach purposes which might be fine if it was just that. But what about if they sell it to medical insurance companies and they refuse to insure certain people? What if you're genetically prone to a disease or condition a less benign government wants to eradicate? What if a future government decides it likes the idea of eugenics (again)?
The data will probably end up on the National Identity Register anyway, and therefore the ID cards. Anyone seen the film Gattaca?
Almost exactly my thoughts.
Once it is socially acceptable for this information to be stored in such ways, the next move is commercialisation.
Yes, Gattaca is a very cool movie
Until government, any government, can prove to me that my data is safe and secure, and, if they lose it, like they did with my Child Benefit details, I can have recompense under the Data Protection Act, I would have to say no.
Over the years our civil liberties have slowly been eroded. Each little step may have not seemed too bad an idea at the time, but at the end of the day we are literally walking into a Big Brother scenario. As Daniel J said the State should be Our Servant, not the other way round.
All those who say if you've nothing to hide you have nothing to fear are really not looking at the bigger picture.
All those who say if you've nothing to hide you have nothing to fear are really not looking at the bigger picture.
quote:Originally posted by Jenny:
Over the years our civil liberties have slowly been eroded. Each little step may have not seemed too bad an idea at the time, but at the end of the day we are literally walking into a Big Brother scenario. As Daniel J said the State should be Our Servant, not the other way round.
All those who say if you've nothing to hide you have nothing to fear are really not looking at the bigger picture.
i've had my DNA taken twice. The first time was when a babys body was found in woods near my mum and dads house, the police took DNA from all girls under the age of 25 and the second time was when i got charged for having CS gas!!
all your concerns about the dna datbase are pretty groundless, all this 6 years for innocent people and 12 years for those who are
a bit innocent, is of no concern, give it 3 weeks and all the data will end up on a roundabout in biggleswade and never be seen again.
a bit innocent, is of no concern, give it 3 weeks and all the data will end up on a roundabout in biggleswade and never be seen again.
No, enough already of all the control which leads to nothing other than cowing us to the state machine.
definately not! Very big brother if you ask me, leave us with some privacy for ourselves!!
100% against.
dna markers are still being worked out, as the police are busy creating a national dna database for the government some may feel its ok right now but what about the future? as has already been stated what about medical issues related to dna and how will insurance companies react if for example your dna says you have a higher than average chance of getting cancer it could make you uninsureable.
there are also more serious issues that could arise, what would happen if some extreme right or left wing party got into power after the dna database is completed? imagine if the entire government could be targetted at only those with the "correct" genetic markers whilst offering no support to those of the "wrong" ancestry, or if a gay gene is found what happens if we get an islamic or right wing christian government.
it doesnt even have to be a government though does it? only needs one or two individuals with an agenda or on the take to leak details of specific people.
in the more distant future when cloning is possible what would happen if you could clone a politician or royal and develop them to your own agenda? or a geneticly targeted virus that only killed those with specific genetic markers, after all that was been worked on by at least one regime even as far back as the 80's even today such a weapon could possibly be made.
genetics is a minefield and you should do whatever you can to ensure that your dna remains yours (and your partialy your childrens) now and in the future.
dna markers are still being worked out, as the police are busy creating a national dna database for the government some may feel its ok right now but what about the future? as has already been stated what about medical issues related to dna and how will insurance companies react if for example your dna says you have a higher than average chance of getting cancer it could make you uninsureable.
there are also more serious issues that could arise, what would happen if some extreme right or left wing party got into power after the dna database is completed? imagine if the entire government could be targetted at only those with the "correct" genetic markers whilst offering no support to those of the "wrong" ancestry, or if a gay gene is found what happens if we get an islamic or right wing christian government.
it doesnt even have to be a government though does it? only needs one or two individuals with an agenda or on the take to leak details of specific people.
in the more distant future when cloning is possible what would happen if you could clone a politician or royal and develop them to your own agenda? or a geneticly targeted virus that only killed those with specific genetic markers, after all that was been worked on by at least one regime even as far back as the 80's even today such a weapon could possibly be made.
genetics is a minefield and you should do whatever you can to ensure that your dna remains yours (and your partialy your childrens) now and in the future.
no..I wont even have a store card with points coz I dont really want a stranger to analyze what I buy and eat then send a load of spam through my door..all the same thing to me...and I certainly wont be going to any dodgy garage or chemist to get my fingerprints done for a card..and no I got nothing to hide but like my privacy and refuse to let the public servant who I give loads of tax to, to subdise their bath plugs, control me! 
quote:Originally posted by Big Brothers Big Scam:
100% against.
dna markers are still being worked out, as the police are busy creating a national dna database for the government some may feel its ok right now but what about the future? as has already been stated what about medical issues related to dna and how will insurance companies react if for example your dna says you have a higher than average chance of getting cancer it could make you uninsureable.
there are also more serious issues that could arise, what would happen if some extreme right or left wing party got into power after the dna database is completed? imagine if the entire government could be targetted at only those with the "correct" genetic markers whilst offering no support to those of the "wrong" ancestry, or if a gay gene is found what happens if we get an islamic or right wing christian government.
it doesnt even have to be a government though does it? only needs one or two individuals with an agenda or on the take to leak details of specific people.
in the more distant future when cloning is possible what would happen if you could clone a politician or royal and develop them to your own agenda? or a geneticly targeted virus that only killed those with specific genetic markers, after all that was been worked on by at least one regime even as far back as the 80's even today such a weapon could possibly be made.
genetics is a minefield and you should do whatever you can to ensure that your dna remains yours (and your partialy your childrens) now and in the future.
You don't need much of an imagination or much of a grasp of how far computer and bio-technology has advanced in the last couple of decades to see the potential horrors in this.