Perones you're not alone, it upset me dreadfully too. I'm so clueless about sentencing etc. but this seems pathetic.Just another instance of the law and its mind boggling ways.

I know Perones, I cannot believe kids of that age can commit such horiffic evil crimes...thing is, they'll end up like Jamie Bulgers killers, new ID's and a better life in a few years etc, they'll be out in no time........

...I know alot of people think they are young and can be rehabilitated, but I'm of the opinion of, if they can do something like that at their age, what will they be capable of later in life??? I'm sorry, but you know right from wrong from an early age.

I know they haven't had a good upbringing but that is only a factor...they are just pure evil...

Horrible little barstewards...and the sentence does seem pathetic...although according to the law.......it was GBH...or attempted murder,  and we all know how pathetic the law is these days.....and the sentencing in particular.
One of those little scrotes dropped an enamel sink on one child's head, because he was bored and the pair of them had nothing to do.
Sorry! Just makes my blood boil

They only stopped attacking them because they were tired!!!! WTF!!!

I also believe that some of the blame must lie with the parents...sadistic little feckers....

The sentancing aside, I just don't get it, what was their motivation? what goes on in their heads ? it's really upsetting what human beings are capable of

......Back to the old nature or nurture debate....Yep! Bad parenting plays a part, but these two were old enough not to do such things... school must have taught them something, even if the parents were feral as well....or you'd hope so.

I agree, you know right from wrong at a very early age ;thumb: I can only think that they are evil through and through.....I am at a loss for words after reading about this, it's beyond comprehension

So like those boys in the Bulger case, but at least the two lads survived. I'm with you Dems, there must be something inherent there that trancends normal behaviour...although that in itself encompasses a wide range tbf.

From the sounds of things, they had a 'wonderful' role model in their father.

I am never surprised that kids can behave like this, when they get brought up in brutal households.

I really hope that they can be rehabilitated. Shame they didn't get the help earlier.

mine too Dev it's hard to believe in evil, rather than it was because of the way the were trreated growing up, made them what they were etc. But this kind of story really does make you wonder if people really are born evil.

its frightening, its all i can say.

the parents should have the same jail sentence, the atmosphere these two were brought  up in was described as  toxic,

i used to live next door to a terrible family (not as bad as in this case thankfully), older lads jailed, 7 years olds smoking and drinking (in front of the mother), setting fire to washing lines etc., but one of the lads was great - always offering to help - while i do think a lot of it is obviously how they are brought up, at that age they need to accept responsibility

having said that, a friend of mine fosters abused children and they are so screwed up she has a nightmare with them ... oh i dont know now - i have just confused myself

its a sad world when children are comitting crimes for fun

This is an interesting read - quite long.

'The father of the Edlington boys was a violent alcoholic whose idea of instilling discipline was beating his children with golf clubs. He enjoyed forcing his sons – one of whom has been serving a sentence for mugging a woman of 68 at knife-point – to fight one another; if they refused, he hit them. He showed them violent and sadistic DVDs. Their mother, who has seven sons by three different fathers, admitted that she gave the boys cannabis to calm them down afterwards. At other times, neighbours reported, the young brothers were left to their own devices and were regularly seen scavenging for food or clothing which they pulled from skips.'

 http://www.independent.co.uk/n...prisons-1874053.html

I came in to say what Jackson has said really but for some reason it wouldn't let me quote.
I could write reams on what I feel about kids like this and the Bulger killers, about the inappropriate length of the sentence etc but the bottom line for me is this:
Those kids were not raised in a vacuum, they are a product of the shocking parenting they received. As such I firmly believe that the parents should be jailed for life - if only to stop them producing more monsters.
I have wondered over the past year what sort of person Baby P would have grown up to be if the poor little mite had survived given what he was subjected to.
When. as a society. are we going to ease up making war on delinquent kids and punish the hell out of their delinquent parents?

We'll need to get the grandparents in as well, probably!

But that's the thing Blizzie, this kind of abuse is generational. At some point society has to take a stand and try to break the cycle.
And. for me. sending a bunch of middle class namby pamby social workers barely out of school to deal with this kind of situation is ridiculous. I've seen their 'support and intervention' on the sink estate where I live.
It consists of chucking taxpayers money at these scum parents, givng them the best housing available and sticking up for them with the police and council etc etc.
It's not enough. We have to say at some point that there are people who should never ever be left in charge of children and ensure that the cycle is broken.

The father, (from what I've read) should have been locked up years ago, for his own crimes.
Children like these should be taken out of 'toxic' situations at a far earlier stage, if we want to break the cycle.

From the article:

"No child is born evil. But they are creatures of their parents and of circumstance. Children who commit violent crimes almost always share a similar background. Their parents are poorly educated, unemployed and often suffer from depression or other mental health problems; many are drug abusers or on the fringes of criminality."

and

“They are brought up with no boundaries, or inappropriate ones,” says Pam Hibbert, who was until recently assistant director of policy at the children’s charity Barnados and before that was a manager at Red Bank secure unit, where Mary Bell and Jon Venables served their sentences. “Children develop empathy from the way they are treated, not just fed and sheltered, but cuddled and stimulated. But the mothers themselves are often so needy. Many were themselves brought up by dysfunctional parents who transmit their inadequacies to a new generation. Inconsistency is one of their hallmarks. “One night they get a crack around the head from their mum because she’s pissed; the next they get a cuddle; they just never know where they are,” says Gareth Jones, one of the country’s senior Youth Offending Team managers – who are the first members of the justice system to come into contact with such children when they break the law."

I suppose the genetic legacy the kids inherit matters as well as those risk factors.  Some kids will have that environment and still turn out okay-ish I suppose.  People still have the capacity of choice but in these sort of situations their choices, or the appreciation of them, must be quite limited.  As such, it is arguable just how culpable they are for their actions.  For the court to give an indefinite period of detention shows how dangerous they are nonetheless.

thanks bliz, that was really enlightening.

whoever posted that' you know right from wrong' is almost entirely wrong, how do you know right from wrong? do you live through a 'toxic'  upbringing from age nil and then have an epiphany at 8 or 9 or 10 when it all becomes clear? and does this epiphany spring from your brain even though you've had no experience of it?

That was me, and what I mean is, you know it's not acceptable to go around hitting and punching people.....things like that a taught from nursery school, you push a kid over, you get told off, you know you shouldn't do it....simples

But what if you are taught that that is normal behaviour, or encouraged to do it, or shown sadistic films?

I understand what you mean now Blizzie I hadn't really thought of it that way as it's hard to imagine that parents would encourage that sort of behaviour, as I said, it's hard to think that way when it's never been the 'norm' for yourself

I am still of the opinion that the parents should be charged as well, afterall, THEY are the ones who instill this way of thinking into their kids.....

So very sad that some kids who suffer abuse (which is what their parents did) go off the rails, and others manage to turn their lives around and make a success of things....this story has shocked me to the core...

There is also the other story of abuse which I think illustrates what you say perfectly, the story of the woman who managed to convince Doctors her son was dreadfully ill, she even let him have unnecessary operations and paraded him on GMTV etc.....he even got a bravery award from number 10....she did it for benefits and other reasons that i cannot get my head around....so yes, you are right in what you say, I just hadn't thought of it from that point of view

I've been so bloody annoyed by this case that I haven't dared come on here. I don't understand why scum with such poor parenting skills are allowed to breed to be honest. Seven sons? Violence, poronography, drugs, alcohol? It's too simple to only punish the kids. What about the feeble minded parents? Where were the neighbours? Police? Social Services? Alas! I'm old fashioned. Bring back a structured Nanny State and to hell with this monetarist crap.

People like this make my blood boil. You need a lisence to drive a car, own a dog or a gun but this low life scum can breed willy nilly infesting the streets with antisocial ferral children, making other peoples lives a misery.
If it was left to me I'd put contaceptives in their cheap cans of lager....

Who decides what's right?  We have 'nanny states' around the world, all different, and some really dubious.  For instance, in the 1970s, we had an educational revolution (one of many) where primary school kids were given free rein to do as they pleased in the classroom on the basis that they would excel in what they were naturally good at.  We don't do that now, and probably for good reason. 

I think that it's me Danjay,

I have nothing to add.  I just wanted to register my despair.

I have been listening to the news and apparently Doncaster Social Services has been taken over by the government for it's past failures...and this was before this case came to light. This family were apparently under the care of Social Workers for 14 years and yet they are still allowed to carry on regardless. Beggars belief

I reckon it should be me, I'm quite benevolent.

A well-known nanny state is Singapore.  It looked very clean and orderly when I was last there.  Of course, I was very careful to flush the public toilet properly after use, I didn't eat chewing gum, have sex with men, drop litter, cross the street at unofficial places, own pornography, insult the modesty of a woman, or annoy someone by being drunk in public,  As a result, I wasn't criminalised, caned, jailed for years, or hanged.  Phew.

Back to the case ... the key thing that seems to be missing in these kids is empathy.  You'd think that was a fundamental human emotion.  Well, I would anyway.  But apparently it's taught.  Or at least it can be suppressed to the point where it does not trigger even in extreme circumstances.  I find that quite horrible and very disturbing.

From the Independent article, above.

New technologies like brain mapping are providing medical evidence to suggest that behaviour affects the physical development of the brain. “The way these children have been treated early in life can affect the size and functioning of the brain,” says Dr Vizard. “It can be altered by neglect. The frontal lobes, which are to do with executive function and empathy, can be physically different; the circuiting in the brain has been affected. So we’re not looking here at risk factors or brain function, but a complex interaction between both.”

I have nothing to ad except, I`m with Bizzie`s understanding of why these boys have become what they have.

I just despair of such cases i really do - you just look at the parents and think the kids have no chance.
And the mother gave them cannabis to calm down?!!? WTF!

thanks DD, i take your point, but you maybe speaking  from your experience, the majority of us would have that experience to one degree or another, i'm just not sure it's the same for everyone.
if i did a bad thing as a kid, my mum would talk to me about it and explain why it was bad,and i knew that if i did it again , there would be consequences and i understood from an early age.i loved my mum and can remember feeling upset and and anxious/ashamed  about pissing her off.
i don't know,however, how i would have felt, if i felt anything at all,if the whole family set up wasn't like my experience but as was mentioned in this case,toxic.

The world is going crazy.

i agree.

you only know right from wrong if taught it...these boys were seemingly taught the opposite. if all you've known is abuse and torture...it is no suprise that they then go on to be that way themselves. i hope they can rehabilitate...but i worry they wont :/

it's like people who say "a beating never did me any harm" then go on to beat their own kids too...................

in the earlier reports on this, when one of the  victims staggered to  some houses asking for help and the police arrived, the father of the two assailants and the assailants themselves were there and the father told the police that his lads had been with him all afternoon, even though one of the victims the police were searching for was lying in the woods dying.