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fabiennefabienneMember
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel J*:
quote:
Originally posted by fabienne:
I wouldn't defend their right to express their views.

They're expressing their views now, well the more palatable ones anyway, and they're giving many of us the opportunity to take the piss out of them and their supporters for being complete numpties. That's a fair trade. As long as the rest of us are vocal enough and spend time knocking their pseudo-arguments down, they can't win.


I don't think they should be allowed though.
fabienne
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B BBBSMember
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel J*:
quote:
Originally posted by fabienne:
I wouldn't defend their right to express their views.

They're expressing their views now, well the more palatable ones anyway, and they're giving many of us the opportunity to take the piss out of them and their supporters for being complete numpties. That's a fair trade. As long as the rest of us are vocal enough and spend time knocking their pseudo-arguments down, they can't win.


problem is when mixed in with the truth come insults and lies it hardens their resolve and makes them more determined, not forgetting the backlash that always comes when any group is seen to become too powerful, heck the bnp already play on the "oppression" they get, too much anti bnp propaganda and you might prove them right then they get the sympathy vote too.
B
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B BBBSMember
quote:
Originally posted by fabienne:
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel J*:
quote:
Originally posted by fabienne:
I wouldn't defend their right to express their views.

They're expressing their views now, well the more palatable ones anyway, and they're giving many of us the opportunity to take the piss out of them and their supporters for being complete numpties. That's a fair trade. As long as the rest of us are vocal enough and spend time knocking their pseudo-arguments down, they can't win.


I don't think they should be allowed though.


you see, adolf hitler or josef stalin would have been so proud of you.

if you dont like democracy can i suggest china or zimbabwe as i'm sure they would agree with you.
B
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FM Former Member
quote:
Originally posted by fabienne:
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel J*:
quote:
Originally posted by fabienne:
I wouldn't defend their right to express their views.

They're expressing their views now, well the more palatable ones anyway, and they're giving many of us the opportunity to take the piss out of them and their supporters for being complete numpties. That's a fair trade. As long as the rest of us are vocal enough and spend time knocking their pseudo-arguments down, they can't win.

I don't think they should be allowed though.

That's the nature of a liberal democracy, which includes free speech, a free press, freedom of conscience, and so on.
FM
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B BBBSMember
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel J*:
quote:
Originally posted by fabienne:
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel J*:
quote:
Originally posted by fabienne:
I wouldn't defend their right to express their views.

They're expressing their views now, well the more palatable ones anyway, and they're giving many of us the opportunity to take the piss out of them and their supporters for being complete numpties. That's a fair trade. As long as the rest of us are vocal enough and spend time knocking their pseudo-arguments down, they can't win.

I don't think they should be allowed though.

That's the nature of a liberal democracy, which includes free speech, a free press, freedom of conscience, and so on.


yes, its strange that i'm being forced to defend a party that would do away all of those things from people who supposedly support them.
B
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FM Former Member
quote:
Originally posted by fabienne:
Right, so anybody who incites people to commit evil acts should be given the right to speak out? People like child abusers, torturers, etc, should also be given the right to express themselves and be heard?

No, if you think freedom of speech gives people the right to do #1 then you don't understand it at all. For #2, yes, they have and should have a right to express their views.
FM
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B BBBSMember
quote:
Originally posted by fabienne:
Right, so anybody who incites people to commit evil acts should be given the right to speak out? People like child abusers, torturers, etc, should also be given the right to express themselves and be heard?


oooh thats not fair, expecting me to defend the indefenceable, but here goes.

the right to open free speech if fully free has to include the rights of those members of society whom the rest of us find distasteful or sick, the normal compromise is that freedom of speech is only extended to those people espousing acts that are considered legal in their country however i'm all for allowing paedophiles and child abusers being able to speak out because so many of them get away with their crimes for years, if they want to tell us what they are it would make preventing them from harming another child a lot easier and although never acknowledged many governments do this in the form of "honeypot" websites that child abusers to sign up and therefore be identified this also applies to terrorists.

torturers are a slightly different matter in that in the main they will be part of the government.

it is however a sad fact that if you truly believe in freedom of speech then you have to accept that some will want to speak out on subjects that you dont like.
B
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FM Former Member
quote:
Originally posted by Big Brothers Big Scam:
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel J*:
That's the nature of a liberal democracy, which includes free speech, a free press, freedom of conscience, and so on.

yes, its strange that i'm being forced to defend a party that would do away all of those things from people who supposedly support them.

You're not just defending their right to express their views, subject to the normal qualifications of free speech, though. You've voted for them! Laugh
FM
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B BBBSMember
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel J*:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Brothers Big Scam:
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel J*:
That's the nature of a liberal democracy, which includes free speech, a free press, freedom of conscience, and so on.

yes, its strange that i'm being forced to defend a party that would do away all of those things from people who supposedly support them.

You're not just defending their right to express their views, subject to the normal qualifications of free speech, though. You've voted for them! Laugh


i voted for pedos and tortures? Eeker

i dont think i'd ever do that knowingly.

edit: sorry i didnt read the post you were quoting.

on here i'm defending their right to express their views, i did not vote for them because of most of their views, just one.
B
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W watchinittoomuch (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by Big Brothers Big Scam:
quote:
Originally posted by watchinittoomuch:
BBBS Hug


thank you, i needed that Valentine


I totally admire the way you're not afraid to state your opinion.

I know many people who vote BNP, and none of them are even aware of political history or have considered the affect of a protest vote...so good on you for being honest and forthright in the face of such opposition Valentine
W
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fabiennefabienneMember
quote:
Originally posted by old hippy guy:
quote:
Originally posted by fabienne:
If you would defend the right of anyone to spread evil, I don't agree with that.


thats all very well.....but WHO decides what is, or isnt evil? Frowner


I know, but we do make it illegal to do certain things. Also, where I work, it's not allowed to make racist or sexist comments. I'm glad about that, so does that make me intolerant of other people's views?
fabienne
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B BBBSMember
quote:
Originally posted by FrankiesChick:
I know this sounds very thick but i don't know who the BNP are!! i take it from the posts that they are not a good party 2 vote for


no, not a good party to vote for if you dont know about them, learn about them from their website then learn about their more hidden agenda from somewhere like stormfront where they post.

however voting for them as a protest in an election that there is no chance of them winning can cause a loot of upset amongst the main parties (and the lefties) and will mean your vote has a greater impact on the policies of the main parties as they fight to win you back.
B
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B BBBSMember
quote:
Originally posted by fabienne:
quote:
Originally posted by old hippy guy:
quote:
Originally posted by fabienne:
If you would defend the right of anyone to spread evil, I don't agree with that.


thats all very well.....but WHO decides what is, or isnt evil? Frowner


I know, but we do make it illegal to do certain things. Also, where I work, it's not allowed to make racist or sexist comments. I'm glad about that, so does that make me intolerant of other people's views?


no, you can choose not to do or say those things and you can choose to think they are bad, its only intolerant if you work to prevent others from expressing their views but expect them to defend your views if others find them distasteful.

you are free to defend someones right to say something without having to agree to a word they say.
B
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FM Former Member
quote:
Originally posted by fabienne:
I know, but we do make it illegal to do certain things. Also, where I work, it's not allowed to make racist or sexist comments. I'm glad about that, so does that make me intolerant of other people's views?

That's because it's not a private space and you're in a work role in your company. Racists have a right to their views and to express them in a private space. We don't do thought crime in the UK, although NuLabour have had a good go at it. It's illegal to incite racial hatred and it's illegal to discriminate in employment but those are particular behaviours.
FM
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FM Former Member
quote:
Originally posted by fabienne:
Just realised, I can't really discuss this very well, so I'll bow out. Sorry if what I said was rubbish. Wave


Yes you can Fabienne Hug I understood what you said. it is one of those questions that's really hard to answer, the whole freedom of speech thing.
In the States where it is an enshrined constitutional right you have groups like NAMBLA: The North American Man Boy Love Association.
And they do exactly what it says on the tin. Personally I find it really difficult to defend them although I would say I believe in free speech.
Or the lunatics fromt the Westboro (sp) Baptist Church who incite hatred of Gay people - again they get away with it under free speech laws.

It's a very difficult subject. I would say personally that I am totally in favour of free speech providing it falls under the guideline 'First, do no harm'
But then, of course, what constitutes 'harm' is a matter of opinion and round we go again.
*Takes a headache pill* Big Grin
FM
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B BBBSMember
quote:
Originally posted by The Secretary:
quote:
however voting for them as a protest in an election that there is no chance of them winning can cause a loot of upset amongst the main parties (and the lefties) and will mean your vote has a greater impact on the policies of the main parties as they fight to win you back.


EXTREMELY dangerous and ill-conceived tactic


high risk of course, but if it drives mainstream towards a more anti-eu (and especially anti constitution/lisbon/whatever next/whatever comes after that) then a risk well worth taking as for me at present there is nothing more politicly important that extracting ourselves from the eu.
B
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FrankiesChickFrankiesChickMember
quote:
Originally posted by Veggieburger:
quote:
Originally posted by FrankiesChick:
I know this sounds very thick but i don't know who the BNP are!! i take it from the posts that they are not a good party 2 vote for


Hello hun
The BNP are the British National Party, they are a far right political party.



Hi wavey veggie, Political things confuse me Confused Eeker i am sure no 1 will be shocked 2 hear that Big Grin
FrankiesChick
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FM Former Member
quote:
Originally posted by FrankiesChick:
Hi wavey veggie, Political things confuse me Confused Eeker i am sure no 1 will be shocked 2 hear that Big Grin


It's mostly all bollix anyway hun, they are just competing to see which of them can screw us over the most.

You've had more important things to do than listen to their rubbish anyway, like raising those kids of yours and working to support them Hug
FM
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FrankiesChickFrankiesChickMember
quote:
Originally posted by Veggieburger:
quote:
Originally posted by FrankiesChick:
Hi wavey veggie, Political things confuse me Confused Eeker i am sure no 1 will be shocked 2 hear that Big Grin


It's mostly all bollix anyway hun, they are just competing to see which of them can screw us over the most.

You've had more important things to do than listen to their rubbish anyway, like raising those kids of yours and working to support them Hug



Hug thanks veggie
FrankiesChick
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LaurenLaurenMember
quote:
Originally posted by Big Brothers Big Scam:
quote:
Originally posted by FrankiesChick:
I know this sounds very thick but i don't know who the BNP are!! i take it from the posts that they are not a good party 2 vote for


no, not a good party to vote for if you dont know about them, learn about them from their website then learn about their more hidden agenda from somewhere like stormfront where they post.

however voting for them as a protest in an election that there is no chance of them winning can cause a loot of upset amongst the main parties (and the lefties) and will mean your vote has a greater impact on the policies of the main parties as they fight to win you back.


I'm sorry but i really can't understand your thinking.

Do you believe in what the BNP stand for? Do you think you will get the desired effect from your protest vote?
Lauren
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Mike StrutterMike StrutterMember
I must own up ...

I was in the National Front !!!!!!!!! Frowner

I was 17

an it was the punk 70s era ...
I was a skinhead was lead to this boozer with mates about these good talker *Hitler was another *

anyway
I left there thinking yeah its all the *coloureds * fault ... Frowner
lots of asians had been forcefully migratted here , due to Idi Amin ... Mad
It felt right .. Thumbs Up

told my lil dad all about this ...an we argued for hours .....

anyway
cut a long story short,
my Grandad was the RSM in The Lancs Regt in WW2 , tortured daily by the lil Jap b*stards POW camp ,
Came out so destroyed couldnt talk ... Frowner Frowner Frowner Frowner

My dad said if we let these bullies an fascists rule ...that what happened to Bill will happen !!!!
and well society is lost ..!!


I left it ...
here is the killer ...

My 7 stone weakling dad,
marching in this pub I was at the sun Dinner ,
and telling all these soccer hoolie /bouncer skinhead blokes ...

You are ALL sad pathetic fools ...
but my lads not a racist ,

an he is coming home with me ...

and I think you lot need to stop being bloody idiots !!!!



Yeah ...
Dragged out by my dad ...CHEERS DAD !!!!
Clapping Clapping Clapping Clapping Clapping Thumbs Up Big Grin

that was me .....as a silly impressionable young guy ........

Fascists are Scum !!!

should I post this ??......yeah .......
Mike Strutter
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stonksstonksMember
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Strutter:
I must own up ...

I was in the National Front !!!!!!!!! Frowner

I was 17

an it was the punk 70s era ...
I was a skinhead was lead to this boozer with mates about these good talker *Hitler was another *

anyway
I left there thinking yeah its all the *coloureds * fault ... Frowner
lots of asians had been forcefully migratted here , due to Idi Amin ... Mad
It felt right .. Thumbs Up

told my lil dad all about this ...an we argued for hours .....

anyway
cut a long story short,
my Grandad was the RSM in The Lancs Regt in WW2 , tortured daily by the lil Jap b*stards POW camp ,
Came out so destroyed couldnt talk ... Frowner Frowner Frowner Frowner

My dad said if we let these bullies an fascists rule ...that what happened to Bill will happen !!!!
and well society is lost ..!!


I left it ...
here is the killer ...

My 7 stone weakling dad,
marching in this pub I was at the sun Dinner ,
and telling all these soccer hoolie /bouncer skinhead blokes ...

You are ALL sad pathetic fools ...
but my lads not a racist ,

an he is coming home with me ...

and I think you lot need to stop being bloody idiots !!!!



Yeah ...
Dragged out by my dad ...CHEERS DAD !!!!
Clapping Clapping Clapping Clapping Clapping Thumbs Up Big Grin

that was me .....as a silly impressionable young guy ........

Fascists are Scum !!!

should I post this ??......yeah .......


Hug
stonks
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