quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
I can understand people calling for torture in his case. I didn't personally but I can see why others would. That doesn't make them bad people. So many have been affected by that mans actions.

Back to baby Peter though.

I can understand the people affected wanting that. It's the armchair people that I cannot, and I think they're bad people. Or, at least, I think they have a well of badness in them.

For the Baby P abusers, I like the idea that they're subject to an indefinite sentence because potentially that may be a whole life sentence or perhaps a very long one. For the rapist, I'd like to think he will spend a lot of his life in there. But that's mostly feelings as I don't know the full details.

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:
In many ways our justice is in need of a long overdue overhaul. Too many of sentencing laws were established when human life came second to property. Even now people who commit robberies are more likely to get a stiffer sentence then people who commit crimes like the one against Baby P. However, I am against cruelty for cruelties sake, being cruel, torturing or even hanging prisoners, in my opinion, makes us no better then they are. What we need is a justice system that gives fair sentencing and when a person is given life it should mean life. We also need to re-evaluate exactly what our sentences are, there should be room to look at each case separately so a person who has reoffended does not have the chance to do it over and over again because they can only be given limited sentences thus allowing them back on the streets time after time.

Sorry this was a bit of a waffle and I'm still not sure if I made my point very clearly

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:
In many ways our justice is in need of a long overdue overhaul. Too many of sentencing laws were established when human life came second to property. Even now people who commit robberies are more likely to get a stiffer sentence then people who commit crimes like the one against Baby P.

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:
In many ways our justice is in need of a long overdue overhaul. Too many of sentencing laws were established when human life came second to property. Even now people who commit robberies are more likely to get a stiffer sentence then people who commit crimes like the one against Baby P. However, I am against cruelty for cruelties sake, being cruel, torturing or even hanging prisoners, in my opinion, makes us no better then they are. What we need is a justice system that gives fair sentencing and when a person is given life it should mean life. We also need to re-evaluate exactly what our sentences are, there should be room to look at each case separately so a person who has reoffended does not have the chance to do it over and over again because they can only be given limited sentences thus allowing them back on the streets time after time.

Sorry this was a bit of a waffle and I'm still not sure if I made my point very clearly

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:
In many ways our justice is in need of a long overdue overhaul. Too many of sentencing laws were established when human life came second to property. Even now people who commit robberies are more likely to get a stiffer sentence then people who commit crimes like the one against Baby P.

That's a very good point and you're right about the differences in sentencing. I've noticed that many times. However, I wonder if it's also partly because violent crimes are fairly rare because you tend to be a particular type of person to do it whereas property crime is endemic and lots of people are prepared to do it. The property crimes with the very heavy sentences tend to be white collar crimes like fraud or crimes with big rewards. As property rights are the core of our society, undermining those is actually very significant to everyone. People are very unlikely to get murdered.

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
How do we go about this though when there are some out there who think EVERYONE deserves a second chance? There are certain cases where the criminals should NEVER even be considered for release as thier crimes are unspeakable and even if there is a 2% chance they might do it again that 2% is too high a risk to take.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
How do we go about this though when there are some out there who think EVERYONE deserves a second chance? There are certain cases where the criminals should NEVER even be considered for release as thier crimes are unspeakable and even if there is a 2% chance they might do it again that 2% is too high a risk to take.

The reoffending rates for, say, burglary are enormous. The reoffending rates for murder are tiny. You'd be better locking up burglars for the rest of their lives to improve other people's lives.

Incidentally, reoffending rates are much reduced, if I recall correctly, by different sorts of punishment than just banging someone up without improving their life chances during their punishment.

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
Are violent crimes really that rare?

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
How do we go about this though when there are some out there who think EVERYONE deserves a second chance? There are certain cases where the criminals should NEVER even be considered for release as thier crimes are unspeakable and even if there is a 2% chance they might do it again that 2% is too high a risk to take.

The reoffending rates for, say, burglary are enormous. The reoffending rates for murder are tiny. You'd be better locking up burglars for the rest of their lives to improve other people's lives.

Incidentally, reoffending rates are much reduced, if I recall correctly, by different sorts of punishment than just banging someone up without improving their life chances during their punishment.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
Are violent crimes really that rare?

Serious violent crimes ~20000 a year, including ~800 homicides. That doesn't say much about a given person's personal risk.

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:
however we also need to recognise that some people are beyond that and as such have laws that protect us from people who fall into this category

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:
however we also need to recognise that some people are beyond that and as such have laws that protect us from people who fall into this category

We already do. Whole life tariffs.

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
That's quite high if you ask me

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
We already do. Whole life tariffs.

Do you think they work?

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
That's quite high if you ask me

It is if you're one of the 20K. However, there are ~60000000 of us and most of us have a low risk of it. Males between 16-24 probably cop for a lot of it. People living in inner cities too, and particular inner cities.

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
I'll never understand them not being charged with murder. Whatever thier intentions it's led to a baby losing his life at thier hands. Allowing a child to die.......emmmm causing a child to die and THAT in my eyes is murder

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
We already do. Whole life tariffs.

Do you think they work?

Well, the reoffending rate is zero. Possibly excepting victims in prison.

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
I thought you were talking about Britain. We may have a low risk but why add to that risk by letting out murderers who may or may not commit the same crime again?

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:
Sorry what I meant is do you think they act as a deterrent?

quote:

Originally posted by Liverpoollass:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
Undermine that and they're on their way to being worthless.

I would certainly call the abusers and killer of Baby P worthless, along with the likes of Hindley, Brady and the likes.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
I thought you were talking about Britain. We may have a low risk but why add to that risk by letting out murderers who may or may not commit the same crime again?

I was talking about Britain.

Murderers come in all shapes and sizes. Some murder their spouses after a lifetime of mental and physical abuse, some murder strangers fairly randomly, some murder their spouse's lover in a fit of rage, some murder for money, some for revenge, some for gang-related reasons as youngsters, some even murder out of compassion. That's why we have mitigating circumstances when sentencing and flexibility for the sentencing judge.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:
Sorry what I meant is do you think they act as a deterrent?

There will always be murder even if we publicly throw murderers out of flying helicopters as punishment. Some peope will be deterred from committing murder. Some commit murder on the spur of the moment so a deterrent probably doesn't register at that time. For whole life tariff people, I doubt many, if any, of them would care.

quote:

Originally posted by spongebob squarepants:

quote:

Originally posted by Liverpoollass:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
Undermine that and they're on their way to being worthless.

I would certainly call the abusers and killer of Baby P worthless, along with the likes of Hindley, Brady and the likes.

spot on.......

in the case of hindley and brady for example.......they taped a 10 year old girl begging to go home....begging to be spared.....yet they carried on abusing her and eventually murdered her

worthless pieces of shit.....they're not even human imo.....

quote:

Originally posted by Liverpoollass:

quote:

Originally posted by spongebob squarepants:

quote:

Originally posted by Liverpoollass:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
Undermine that and they're on their way to being worthless.

I would certainly call the abusers and killer of Baby P worthless, along with the likes of Hindley, Brady and the likes.

spot on.......

in the case of hindley and brady for example.......they taped a 10 year old girl begging to go home....begging to be spared.....yet they carried on abusing her and eventually murdered her

worthless pieces of shit.....they're not even human imo.....

Oooh thanks Spongey, I was beginning to feel a bit like a

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:

quote:

Originally posted by Liverpoollass:

quote:

Originally posted by spongebob squarepants:

quote:

Originally posted by Liverpoollass:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
Undermine that and they're on their way to being worthless.

I would certainly call the abusers and killer of Baby P worthless, along with the likes of Hindley, Brady and the likes.

spot on.......

in the case of hindley and brady for example.......they taped a 10 year old girl begging to go home....begging to be spared.....yet they carried on abusing her and eventually murdered her

worthless pieces of shit.....they're not even human imo.....

Oooh thanks Spongey, I was beginning to feel a bit like a

I agreed with you

quote:

Originally posted by Liverpoollass:

quote:

Originally posted by spongebob squarepants:

quote:

Originally posted by Liverpoollass:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
Undermine that and they're on their way to being worthless.

I would certainly call the abusers and killer of Baby P worthless, along with the likes of Hindley, Brady and the likes.

spot on.......

in the case of hindley and brady for example.......they taped a 10 year old girl begging to go home....begging to be spared.....yet they carried on abusing her and eventually murdered her

worthless pieces of shit.....they're not even human imo.....

Oooh thanks Spongey, I was beginning to feel a bit like a

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:

Sorry LL your original post isn't showing on my screen for some reason, didn't mean to ignore you

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:
Sorry what I meant is do you think they act as a deterrent?

There will always be murder even if we publicly throw murderers out of flying helicopters as punishment. Some peope will be deterred from committing murder. Some commit murder on the spur of the moment so a deterrent probably doesn't register at that time. For whole life tariff people, I doubt many, if any, of them would care.

That's the scary part really that their are people out there who have so little empathy with another human being that life means absolutely nothing to them, it is something to be taken and thrown away. I will reiterate that even people who do the most cruel and senseless acts should not be treated badly. I do not believe in the eye for an eye theory.

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
I need my bed. I read that as 6 billion

Flexibility of sentencing is good. Do you think it's the way it's reported then? When they say things like "must serve a minimum of 5 years"? That was one of the things that made me mad watching it on tv and reading about it

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:
Sorry what I meant is do you think they act as a deterrent?

There will always be murder even if we publicly throw murderers out of flying helicopters as punishment. Some peope will be deterred from committing murder. Some commit murder on the spur of the moment so a deterrent probably doesn't register at that time. For whole life tariff people, I doubt many, if any, of them would care.

That's the scary part really that their are people out there who have so little empathy with another human being that life means absolutely nothing to them, it is something to be taken and thrown away. I will reiterate that even people who do the most cruel and senseless acts should not be treated badly. I do not believe in the eye for an eye theory.

Treated badly is a very broad term though. If as a nation we insist on putting them in prison then they must take whatever comes with that. Even some prisoners have a sense of what's acceptable. Child abusers/killers are hated and so they should be. If they become targets then I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it. Maybe it's better they do it than the average person on the street.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
I need my bed. I read that as 6 billion

Flexibility of sentencing is good. Do you think it's the way it's reported then? When they say things like "must serve a minimum of 5 years"? That was one of the things that made me mad watching it on tv and reading about it

I think most people picked up on that and felt outrage, including me. DBO posted a link from the BBC website which showed the whole judgement and reasons. We ought to get that for each big case via the BBC rather than they most sensational headline. As an example, the mother pleaded guilty and therefore she qualified for a reduced sentence. Even that is not simple because the reduction, I believe, is not simply for pleading guilty but (say) pleading guilty and showing remorse rather than pleading guilty simply because the evidence is overwhelming.

quote:

Originally posted by Liverpoollass:

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:

Sorry LL your original post isn't showing on my screen for some reason, didn't mean to ignore you

Tis ok, I think it's time for my bed anyways

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
I think it's fair to say that people know how to "play" the system now. Plead guilty...get a reduced sentence. Show remorse....get a reduced sentence. This in itself is disturbing.

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:
Sorry what I meant is do you think they act as a deterrent?

There will always be murder even if we publicly throw murderers out of flying helicopters as punishment. Some peope will be deterred from committing murder. Some commit murder on the spur of the moment so a deterrent probably doesn't register at that time. For whole life tariff people, I doubt many, if any, of them would care.

That's the scary part really that their are people out there who have so little empathy with another human being that life means absolutely nothing to them, it is something to be taken and thrown away. I will reiterate that even people who do the most cruel and senseless acts should not be treated badly. I do not believe in the eye for an eye theory.

Treated badly is a very broad term though. If as a nation we insist on putting them in prison then they must take whatever comes with that. Even some prisoners have a sense of what's acceptable. Child abusers/killers are hated and so they should be. If they become targets then I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it. Maybe it's better they do it than the average person on the street.

What I mean by badly is that I wouldn't want to wake up one morning and realise that I am as bad as the person I am condemming. This is why I am against the death sentence. Strangely i had this conversation recently with my son, he is reading a book about someone who decided to take out all the bad people in the world. The problem with this is where do we draw the line?

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by Mentalist:
Sorry what I meant is do you think they act as a deterrent?

There will always be murder even if we publicly throw murderers out of flying helicopters as punishment. Some peope will be deterred from committing murder. Some commit murder on the spur of the moment so a deterrent probably doesn't register at that time. For whole life tariff people, I doubt many, if any, of them would care.

That's the scary part really that their are people out there who have so little empathy with another human being that life means absolutely nothing to them, it is something to be taken and thrown away. I will reiterate that even people who do the most cruel and senseless acts should not be treated badly. I do not believe in the eye for an eye theory.

Treated badly is a very broad term though. If as a nation we insist on putting them in prison then they must take whatever comes with that. Even some prisoners have a sense of what's acceptable. Child abusers/killers are hated and so they should be. If they become targets then I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it. Maybe it's better they do it than the average person on the street.

What I mean by badly is that I wouldn't want to wake up one morning and realise that I am as bad as the person I am condemming. This is why I am against the death sentence. Strangely i had this conversation recently with my son, he is reading a book about someone who decided to take out all the bad people in the world. The problem with this is where do we draw the line?

I am for the death penalty but only for cases where it is proven beyond doubt. Fred West, Harold Shipman, Ian Brady would have been some of them. I know that in the past there have been errors which is why it will never be brought back but it doesn't stop me thinking that sometimes it may be for the best.