Lets hope they are all without pain now. God bless all those little angels.

He was named on the internet when the news first broke. It was as they were coming up to trial that he became Baby P and his parents were kept anonymous. Someone posted a link to the original news story with pics of his parents too. All got pulled pretty quickly.

God rest his soul. At least they can't hurt him anymore

quote:

Originally posted by Cagney:
He was named on the internet when the news first broke. It was as they were coming up to trial that he became Baby P and his parents were kept anonymous. Someone posted a link to the original news story with pics of his parents too. All got pulled pretty quickly.
God rest his soul. At least they can't hurt him anymore

I think I remember something somewhere too, but still can't believe the level of evilness some have in them. I am still stunned by the whole sorry case, the lack of research and groundwork by so call educated, degree laden, social worker types who seemed more interested in nice tidy desks in their nice lives..... the reality is, there is a low-life society out there, and just maybe a sturdier, more grounded type would do a better job.

Just heard his mother treated her dogs better than her baby, even let her Rotweiller bite him just for the fun of it OMG and these people are called human beings

I see the bloke used to hurt animals when he was younger. Seems to be a bit of an indicator, that one.

quote:

Originally posted by felix:
I am still stunned by the whole sorry case, the lack of research and groundwork by so call educated, degree laden, social worker types who seemed more interested in nice tidy desks in their nice lives..... the reality is, there is a low-life society out there, and just maybe a sturdier, more grounded type would do a better job.

When you've finished sweeping with the generalisations, would you make a start on my yard?

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
I see the bloke used to hurt animals when he was younger. Seems to be a bit of an indicator, that one.

Absolutely Daniel, there is definitely a link, pschopathic f*ckers. In this instance I really do wish we still had capital punishment, a long slow one.

.....upon their release, they'll be given new identities and it said it will cost an extimated £1 million a year to keep them secure....justice??? I think not They should be left to rot....scum!

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
I see the bloke used to hurt animals when he was younger. Seems to be a bit of an indicator, that one.

That does seem to be the case quite often They don't even deserve to be treated like Human beings, at least they are big enough and ugly enough to defend themselves....baby P wasn't...

quote:

Originally posted by The Devil In Diamante:
.....upon their release, they'll be given new identities and it said it will cost an extimated £1 million a year to keep them secure....justice??? I think not They should be left to rot....scum!

That really annoyed me..
They shouldn't be freed at all..They didn't protect or care for the baby, why should they be protected?

quote:

Originally posted by lightfoot:

quote:

Originally posted by The Devil In Diamante:
.....upon their release, they'll be given new identities and it said it will cost an extimated £1 million a year to keep them secure....justice??? I think not They should be left to rot....scum!

That really annoyed me..
They shouldn't be freed at all..They didn't protect or care for the baby, why should they be protected?

My thoughts exactly lightfoot, and we don't have a choice how much of OUR money is spent protecting them!

Personally, I wouldn't want a penny of it spent on protecting them, and i'm sure everyone else feels the same. They'll end up with better lifestyles than most for their henious crime!

bastards were brothers too..tortured their own Grandmother too ..words cant describe how I feel

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by felix:
I am still stunned by the whole sorry case, the lack of research and groundwork by so call educated, degree laden, social worker types who seemed more interested in nice tidy desks in their nice lives..... the reality is, there is a low-life society out there, and just maybe a sturdier, more grounded type would do a better job.

When you've finished sweeping with the generalisations, would you make a start on my yard?

You don't have to be rude, I may be generalisng but I think this case has plenty of examples of bad management. So government principles and policies of leaving vunerable children with their natural parents for as long as possible doesn't need a review? The social workers involved didn't see anything wrong or question the mothers excuses for injuries, and if they did, chose the mothers word over the obvious record of these injuries. Sixty visits were made!!! I think an added course on commonsense could be added to socialwork, maybe a stint in the police or prison service, where they will get to meet all sorts of deviousness. IMO.

The justice system is messed up .... As for social workers, there is only so much they can do with limited information.... Maybe a new law should be created so they can move in with suspected parents temporarily and assess the situation...

quote:

Originally posted by felix:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by felix:
I am still stunned by the whole sorry case, the lack of research and groundwork by so call educated, degree laden, social worker types who seemed more interested in nice tidy desks in their nice lives..... the reality is, there is a low-life society out there, and just maybe a sturdier, more grounded type would do a better job.

When you've finished sweeping with the generalisations, would you make a start on my yard?

You don't have to be rude, I may be generalisng but I think this case has plenty of examples of bad management. So government principles and policies of leaving vunerable children with their natural parents for as long as possible doesn't need a review? The social workers involved didn't see anything wrong or question the mothers excuses for injuries, and if they did, chose the mothers word over the obvious record of these injuries. Sixty visits were made!!! I think an added course on commonsense could be added to socialwork, maybe a stint in the police or prison service, where they will get to meet all sorts of deviousness. IMO.

hi felix Unfortunately these parents can be very clever at hiding their abuse. It was stated that she even smeared chocolate over his bruised face. But quite unbelievable that out of 60 visits none were picked up. I just don't understand how it could have been missed and I guess all we can do is speculate until further investigation has been made public.

quote:

Originally posted by pretty~cocoa~eyes:
The justice system is messed up .... As for social workers, there is only so much they can do with limited information.... Maybe a new law should be created so they can move in with suspected parents temporarily and assess the situation...

Sounds good in theory PCE, but it's all down to money again.

I am not a great lover of Social Workers, but to put the blame on them is unfair. Doctors and others all missed the signs that the poor lad was being slowly tortured to death.
But no matter what reasons or excuses are given the people who killed Peter were the low life he lived with. They and they alone are responsible for his death.
In my view they have given up all rights to be treated as humans and should face the full fury of the public, when or if, they are ever released from prison.

After it all came out about Baby P I went to the Jobcentre to speak to a careers advisor about becoming a social worker. The careers advisor told me that I would have to do a years bridging course to bring me up to a level standard and then a 3 year full time degree to qualify as a social worker. She followed that up by saying that I'd get myself into debt by doing the degree so not to bother

Hi Pussy I know, this is one horrific case, and the ones uncovered since Baby Peter. There was a programme a while back that summed up the 'misses' in social services. Unfortunately, red tape and crap like that, disolves the authorities of any major part in the blamegame, seems like statistics and nice neat 'happy-ending' casefiles are what the government prefer.

quote:

Originally posted by LoraR:
After it all came out about Baby P I went to the Jobcentre to speak to a careers advisor about becoming a social worker. The careers advisor told me that I would have to do a years bridging course to bring me up to a level standard and then a 3 year full time degree to qualify as a social worker. She followed that up by saying that I'd get myself into debt by doing the degree so not to bother

Thats despicable Lora, i'd report her

quote:

Originally posted by pussycatj:

quote:

Originally posted by LoraR:
After it all came out about Baby P I went to the Jobcentre to speak to a careers advisor about becoming a social worker. The careers advisor told me that I would have to do a years bridging course to bring me up to a level standard and then a 3 year full time degree to qualify as a social worker. She followed that up by saying that I'd get myself into debt by doing the degree so not to bother

Thats despicable Lora, i'd report her

I wouldn't have minded so much if she'd have given me some other options along similar lines but it was just like, well, that's that, you can go now! I actually said to her that there was a family liason officer at my sons school and perhaps that could be an option then, she told me to speak to the family liason officer and see what she could recommend

quote:

Originally posted by LoraR:
After it all came out about Baby P I went to the Jobcentre to speak to a careers advisor about becoming a social worker. The careers advisor told me that I would have to do a years bridging course to bring me up to a level standard and then a 3 year full time degree to qualify as a social worker. She followed that up by saying that I'd get myself into debt by doing the degree so not to bother

My OH works in Community Care and is having to do her Social work Degree to keep the job she has being doing for twenty years.
I can honestly say that I have never seen such a lot of crap written on a subject in my life.
Some of the things that is deemed to be essential for becoming a social worker is utter non sense.
What social workers need more than anything is good common sense. Not a piece of paper saying you have read all the crap about empowering the client to become more self aware blah blah blah.

quote:

Originally posted by LoraR:

quote:

Originally posted by pussycatj:

quote:

Originally posted by LoraR:
After it all came out about Baby P I went to the Jobcentre to speak to a careers advisor about becoming a social worker. The careers advisor told me that I would have to do a years bridging course to bring me up to a level standard and then a 3 year full time degree to qualify as a social worker. She followed that up by saying that I'd get myself into debt by doing the degree so not to bother

Thats despicable Lora, i'd report her

I wouldn't have minded so much if she'd have given me some other options along similar lines but it was just like, well, that's that, you can go now! I actually said to her that there was a family liason officer at my sons school and perhaps that could be an option then, she told me to speak to the family liason officer and see what she could recommend

quote:

Originally posted by luxor:

quote:

Originally posted by LoraR:
After it all came out about Baby P I went to the Jobcentre to speak to a careers advisor about becoming a social worker. The careers advisor told me that I would have to do a years bridging course to bring me up to a level standard and then a 3 year full time degree to qualify as a social worker. She followed that up by saying that I'd get myself into debt by doing the degree so not to bother

My OH works in Community Care and is having to do her Social work Degree to keep the job she has being doing for twenty years.
I can honestly say that I have never seen such a lot of crap written on a subject in my life.
Some of the things that is deemed to be essential for becoming a social worker is utter non sense.
What social workers need more than anything is good common sense. Not a piece of paper saying you have read all the crap about empowering the client to become more self aware blah blah blah.

That was my argument, surely good old fahioned common sense would have rung alram bells in the baby p case, rather than a manual reading approach. Absolute craziness. I hope your OH gets on ok with her degree

quote:

Originally posted by luxor:

quote:

Originally posted by LoraR:
After it all came out about Baby P I went to the Jobcentre to speak to a careers advisor about becoming a social worker. The careers advisor told me that I would have to do a years bridging course to bring me up to a level standard and then a 3 year full time degree to qualify as a social worker. She followed that up by saying that I'd get myself into debt by doing the degree so not to bother

My OH works in Community Care and is having to do her Social work Degree to keep the job she has being doing for twenty years.
I can honestly say that I have never seen such a lot of crap written on a subject in my life.
Some of the things that is deemed to be essential for becoming a social worker is utter non sense.
What social workers need more than anything is good common sense. Not a piece of paper saying you have read all the crap about empowering the client to become more self aware blah blah blah.

And they wonder why there aren't enough Social Workers, disgraceful. Thing is, I would imagine those that do have the time to do a degree are those without children, in what imo makes you more astute to the workings and failings of a family unit.

quote:

Originally posted by felix:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

quote:

Originally posted by felix:
I am still stunned by the whole sorry case, the lack of research and groundwork by so call educated, degree laden, social worker types who seemed more interested in nice tidy desks in their nice lives..... the reality is, there is a low-life society out there, and just maybe a sturdier, more grounded type would do a better job.

When you've finished sweeping with the generalisations, would you make a start on my yard?

You don't have to be rude, I may be generalisng but I think this case has plenty of examples of bad management. So government principles and policies of leaving vunerable children with their natural parents for as long as possible doesn't need a review? The social workers involved didn't see anything wrong or question the mothers excuses for injuries, and if they did, chose the mothers word over the obvious record of these injuries. Sixty visits were made!!! I think an added course on commonsense could be added to socialwork, maybe a stint in the police or prison service, where they will get to meet all sorts of deviousness. IMO.

I was being much less rude than you were about the people who aren't here to defend themselves. You've over-generalised, thrown in some prejudice, and over-simplified. It's very easy to criticise, knowing the outcome. Much harder to make the judgement calls on the ground.

Social work of that sort doesn't make for nice tidy desks or nice lives, it appears to be a very hard and very draining job. The social services are struggling to recruit now, and some of that is down to the Baby P case I expect.

Undoubtedly, stuff needs to change and there seems to have been a catalogue of errors in this case which cumulatively amount up to a catastrophic failure. But it's not something that a new filing cabinet, some checklists to sign off, and a bit of common-sense will or can fix. It'll probably happen again, too.

Radio 4 had a segment on this story this morning, with relevant guests. I think we tend to hear one side of stories like this and are inclined to outrage and want quick fixes. It's worth hearing all sides.

quote:

Originally posted by LoraR:

quote:

Originally posted by luxor:

quote:

Originally posted by LoraR:
After it all came out about Baby P I went to the Jobcentre to speak to a careers advisor about becoming a social worker. The careers advisor told me that I would have to do a years bridging course to bring me up to a level standard and then a 3 year full time degree to qualify as a social worker. She followed that up by saying that I'd get myself into debt by doing the degree so not to bother

My OH works in Community Care and is having to do her Social work Degree to keep the job she has being doing for twenty years.
I can honestly say that I have never seen such a lot of crap written on a subject in my life.
Some of the things that is deemed to be essential for becoming a social worker is utter non sense.
What social workers need more than anything is good common sense. Not a piece of paper saying you have read all the crap about empowering the client to become more self aware blah blah blah.

That was my argument, surely good old fahioned common sense would have rung alram bells in the baby p case, rather than a manual reading approach. Absolute craziness. I hope your OH gets on ok with her degree

Thank you.
She is finding it tough what with doing the course and working full time. But she loves her job and is determined to finish it. 2 years down 2 to go.

quote:

I am still stunned by the whole sorry case, the lack of research and groundwork by so call educated, degree laden, social worker types who seemed more interested in nice tidy desks in their nice lives..... the reality is, there is a low-life society out there, and just maybe a sturdier, more grounded type would do a better job.

Oh gosh.

quote:

Originally posted by pussycatj:

quote:

Originally posted by pretty~cocoa~eyes:
The justice system is messed up .... As for social workers, there is only so much they can do with limited information.... Maybe a new law should be created so they can move in with suspected parents temporarily and assess the situation...

Sounds good in theory PCE, but it's all down to money again.

That's the irony, a lot of money will be allocated to protect this scum on release, but not to prevent them from doing it in the first place!
The money could be better spent creating a department of 'minders' for possible 'hands-on' family assessments, like PCE says, spending time with families like a 'supernanny' for the parents.
Having said that, I would take children out of known alcoholic or drug addicts homes (if they were already a casefile), I hear the outrage, drastic I know. Putting the addicted parent into rehab is more cost effective and less damaging, than leaving them and the child/ren in insufferable conditions long term though. IMO.

quote:

There was a programme a while back that summed up the 'misses' in social services. Unfortunately, red tape and crap like that, disolves the authorities of any major part in the blamegame, seems like statistics and nice neat 'happy-ending' casefiles are what the government prefer.

But lets just ignore the fact that social workers do also get an awful lot of people out of terrible situations hey.

The pictures they released were interesting. What made Peter very cute as a child looked like we'd found the Missing Link in the mother.

The other thing about the selective personal information was that the mother rarely got up until lunchtime, spent most of her time on the internet, and had a bit of a drink/drug problem.

We're invited to draw an image and context from that. All I could think about was the people on forums I 'know' who would fit that description rather nicely.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
The pictures they released were interesting. What made Peter very cute as a child looked like we'd found the Missing Link in the mother.

The other thing about the selective personal information was that the mother rarely got up until lunchtime, spent most of her time on the internet, and had a bit of a drink/drug problem.

We're invited to draw an image and context from that. All I could think about was the people on forums I 'know' who would fit that description rather nicely.

Blimey Daniel that's a bit below the belt

quote:

Originally posted by sweet_tooth:

quote:

There was a programme a while back that summed up the 'misses' in social services. Unfortunately, red tape and crap like that, disolves the authorities of any major part in the blamegame, seems like statistics and nice neat 'happy-ending' casefiles are what the government prefer.

But lets just ignore the fact that social workers do also get an awful lot of people out of terrible situations hey.

Social workers are between a rock and a hard place really.They try to keep kids in family placements as much as possible(removing vulnerable kids to another family member for instance).They are never easy decisions to make..and often involve a great deal of emotional input.And,of course,they have to guard against removing kids needlessly from a family who may cause concern because of an alternative lifestyle,yet are raising their kids safely.Just differently.
I'm not defending anyone in this case.The fact innocent children lose their lives speaks for itself.But judging hard working demoralised staff harshly won't help improve services.Social workers need support not criticism if risks to children are to be reduced.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
The pictures they released were interesting. What made Peter very cute as a child looked like we'd found the Missing Link in the mother.

The other thing about the selective personal information was that the mother rarely got up until lunchtime, spent most of her time on the internet, and had a bit of a drink/drug problem.

We're invited to draw an image and context from that. All I could think about was the people on forums I 'know' who would fit that description rather nicely.

Being on the internet and having a drink/drug problem does not make someone assist in torturing your child. That I am afraid is a personal choice.

Hi guys.. just wanted to say that i've no experience with social workers, abuse or anything really but have read all your posts with interest.. i'd love to have been a social worker but was put off the idea aswell (i wish i had of just gone for it now) - protecting kids from these kind of people must be what we take from this case and the many like it, there needs to be more vigilence, more reporting, more notice taken of these babies and a defininte change in the procedures that are obviously failing these kiddies..

I won't be suprised when these two are released that they'll go into protective custody like Jamie Bulger's killers - it makes me sick to think i pay my taxes to protect these wasters/abusers/ sicko's

quote:

Originally posted by sweet_tooth:

quote:

There was a programme a while back that summed up the 'misses' in social services. Unfortunately, red tape and crap like that, disolves the authorities of any major part in the blamegame, seems like statistics and nice neat 'happy-ending' casefiles are what the government prefer.

But lets just ignore the fact that social workers do also get an awful lot of people out of terrible situations hey.

Okay I hear you, most social workers do a fantastic job, unfortunately a minority let the good ones down. The government does have a tendency to add more and more redtape, while expecting them to work miracles with unstable families.
But they are on the frontline, combined through a united front, are better place to urge changes to laws that don't work.

quote:

Originally posted by pussycatj:

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:
We're invited to draw an image and context from that. All I could think about was the people on forums I 'know' who would fit that description rather nicely.

Blimey Daniel that's a bit below the belt

Or the image they're painting of someone who is an obvious candidate in the common sense view for whipping away the kids may not be that obvious if you're assessing a situation before a known outcome. When I saw the story on the news this morning, the overwhelming impression I was left with was: why was the kid (or kids)left in their care, it should have been obvious what was going on. The media story was intended to leave that impression, I'd say.

The people who tend to be drawn to social work are probably those with 'soft skills': empathy, sympathy, listening, and so on. I think we have to accept the possibility, the probability I imagine, that those convicted were devious, manipulative, and probably sociopaths to varying extents. Therefore, they were probably skilled at hiding in the 'of concern but monitor' camp.

If I had to make changes (I admit I'm largly ignorant of the system) then I'd put in a system 'champion' whose explicit job is to challenge interpretations. Even then, I think there will be a bias in the system to either keep kids in their home where possible, or to remove kids when there are just suspicions. It seems to me to be that binary, and all else follows from which way the system tends towards. In either case, there will be wrong decisions and in individual cases there is no way of knowing for sure whether the decision was truly the best for the child.

Very easy to blame the Social Workers, huh.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel J*:

The people who tend to be drawn to social work are probably those with 'soft skills': empathy, sympathy, listening, and so on.

Isn't that the same sort of generalising you called up someone else for?