I understand none of that 

 

I do understand the financial pressure that would be brought down on us if we left.

 

 

If we leave and wanted to trade under the same agreement and opted for Norway's options, we would have no choice but to stick to the rules of The European Market with no vote 

 

If we took Sweden and Turkey's option we would have to stick to some rules and lose the right for our financial service industry would lose its option to offer its services in Europe and it accounts for about 10% of our economy  

 

and those are two things just for starters 

Good grief Squiggle ...I didn't realise we would lose the right to veto in so many areas  

That looks a very scary list ......what does it all mean though? How will things change here in our country? Are we having a bunch of foreigners interfering with our structural and cohesion funds Perish the thought.

 

Is a Portuguese gentleman gonna be sitting presiding over cases of Police co-operation between the Cleethorpes and Grimsby districts?

 

That list means absolutely nothing to me TBH - I think it's scaremongering. 

 

 

QMV

 

 

it means a majority vote wins on those issues Soozy instead of needing full agreement and instead of being able to veto, we like other member states would have to go along with the rest or they with us...bit like our parliament  

 

Like you I don't have a clue what half of the above votes are about. We have equal votes with Germany and France I think 29 each, some members like Malta have only 3 

What good is it then voting in a General Election if we don't have a say on what our country's policy is in all those areas?  Soozy was questioning whether we had lost any sovereignty, I would suggest perhaps how much of our laws are in our complete control now?

Which laws are we concerned with? As a regular visitor to France, Belgium, and The Fatherland, I can only speak for them, but they seem to have the same attitude to wrongdoing and general naughtiness as we do.

 

 

and I was making the point that it applies to everyone!

A recent MORI poll revealed the following

 

The majority of British people would vote to stay in the EU (54% in favour of staying against 37% wishing to leave)

 

This was a change from the previous poll in 2012 which had 44% wanting to stay but 48% wanting to leave

 

I know that polls are not always 100% reliable but that is quite a change - and one that I am happy about.

 

I hope that I have read the figures correctly but they are on the MORI site, as are the results of the poll dating back to the 1970's. 

 

 

 

its a lot of 1950/60's ethnic families who dont like the mass immigration

because they feel their families have worked hard to get where they are now

so i reckon indigenous british are not as put out as some ethnic families are, i know of lots of them who are on the side of Ukip

now-i maybe wrong-yet i dont think i am

and im not speaking for everyone-obviously

 

I'll be honest ..................I've never fully understood what the EU is all about and how it affects our every day lives. With all the 'kerfuffle' recently I have asked people who's opinions I respect and done a bit of reading myself.

 

It is pretty shameful to admit that I've never bothered much until now. If nothing else I think that these election results have made a lot of people open their eyes and look a bit more closely about how EU membership effects their lives. I guess in doing so we'll all make up our minds and become a bit more knowledgeable in the process.

 

I know my posts come across as aggressive and argumentative - I really don't mean to - it's just the style I write with - I am a bit hard hitting. I really do apologise if I offend - hand on heart - I'm a pussy cat in real life.

 

 

 

 

 

 @Soozy 

 

 

But I've proven that the right has numerous insults it uses to denigrate left wing opinion.  The right just hates the boot being on the other foot and plays the martyr every time.

 

Gordon Brown wasn't unelected, he was an elected MP who led his party.  We elect a party of government not a president.  Gordon Brown was the leader of the party of government, therefore the PM. 

 

Now, David Cameron is certainly unelected.  He didn't win a majority necessary to form a government as the Tories DID NOT WIN THE ELECTION.  Cameron is squatting in no. 10, thanks to the Lib Dems.

 

Off the record, I'm sure Cameron has been scathing about members of the public he's met but Rupert Murdoch's Sky would never put that in the public domain, because Murdoch wants a Tory government!

 

I think you have to be really gullible to seriously believe that without Ukip immigration would never be mentioned.  Immigration has always been a hot topic in the press and Parliament whatever the decade.

 

Ukip haven't started any debate, they've just blamed immigrants and the EU for everything because they are a neo-liberal rabble who want to scapegoat the EU and immigrants for the failure of neo-liberal policies they not only support, but would like to take a lot further.

 

Opposition to both immigration and the EU long predates Ukip. 

 

What are their policies??? No one knows all they talk about is immigration and the EU.

 

I remember the last time when Conservatives were the opposition, they too harped on immigration and that sort of got them elected, and things are much worse now with the UK catering to the whole of Europe. Do you really think Nigel Farage will do anything?

They certainly did, and then Tory leader, Michael Howard, made it the central issue of the Tory electoral campaign in 2005. 

 

I think there's a lot of gullible people suspending objectivity because they want to believe Ukip is different to the right wing turbo Tory rabble they really are.

You mean like all those gullible people who suspended objectivity and believed that Tony Blair was the bees knees , or that Mrs T was a saint , or that Gordon Brown was a good chancellor , or that most Labour politicians are in politics for the good of the people and not themselves ......whereas all Conservatives are power hungry egomaniacs ......are those the gullible people you're talking about ? Let's face it one person's gullibility ( and suspension of objectivity) is another person's conviction ....it just depends which side of the fence your sitting on 

Read back a few posts, I listed some of their policies.

...... And I listed all the great things t'EU have done for us but.

This still makes me laugh though!
Read Aloud For Best Effect!!!

The European Union commissioners have announced that agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred language for European communications, rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five-year phased plan for what will be known as EuroEnglish (Euro for short).

In the first year, "s" will be used instead of the soft "c." Sertainly, sivil servants will resieve this news with joy. Also, the hard "c" will be replaced with "k". Not only will this klear up konfusion, but typewriters kan have one less letter.

There will be growing publik emthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced by "f". This will make words like fotograf" 20 persent shorter.

In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of silent "e"s in the languag is disgrasful, and they would go.

By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" by "z" and "w" by " v".

During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou", and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.

After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer.

Ze drem vil finali kum tru.

Well, at least there was some evidence for those opinions. I've met people who loved Thatcher and could talk for hours about how she saved the country.  Brown delivered 10 years of continual growth.  Unprecedented!  He also kept us out of the Euro and acted promptly to save total meltdown of the economy.  Even though I detest Thatcher, I totally appreciate why many think she saved the country. 

 

However, there's no evidence that a neo-liberal Turbo Tory party is remotely anything different from anything we've had before.  It's little more than a personality cult.  The Tories were kept out of office mainly by obsessing over immigration and the EU.  Now Ukip have taken over that job and the gullible think it's fantastic.

I think maybe you are missing my point I was trying to make , which was that just having a different opinion ( or set of values) on a subject does not per se make someone gullible ( or engender suspending belief ). Secondly , I truly believe that the use of such pejorative terms actually tends to weaken any argument, and could even work against it . As for a  personality cult .....I have just two words to say .....Tony Blair  

did you mis-spell that?

Pirate ...behave !  

Tony Blair had a house not far away from me too! We never prayed together though.




Paint fumes :boggle:

  

 

Not missing the point at all.  Their opinion is different, it's a naive and gullible opinion. 

 

I've heard loads of stupid claims made by Ukip voters on Ukip.  Like the NHS is safe under Ukip.  I think a good proportion of Ukip voters have no idea what Ukip actually stand for.  Clearly most of them do not have any idea what was in the last Ukip manifesto or they do, but don't care as long as everything is blamed on immigrants and the EU.

 

If I was going to vote for a party, I'd want to have a good idea of what they stood for.  Obviously, disaffected Tories are probably quite happy with a load of hard right policies, but anyone who votes against Tory policies normally and voting Ukip needs their head examined.

Carnelian are you a far left Labour voter perchance? 

 

Only reason I ask is you seem to spend a lot of time calling Tories names or calling them out.. . and did you not say earlier in the thread that Tories always have names for people yet you seem to do the same when it comes to them... I understood a lot of Labour voters chose UKIP this time too. .why not call them names or call them out as well?

 

I agree with the general argument that people haven't a clue what UKIP really is and voted in ignorance, but I really hate the focusing on and the not so nice things said about only one lot of voters [Tories] who swapped to them this time, not all of them i.e. The Labour voters too.. and I don't like the generalisations made either .. 

 

I know you will probably come back to me with some really clever response which I won't have a clue about how to answer but I just wanted to point out what I see as a pot and kettle situation with some of your arguments. ..

 

 

No, not 'far left' but certainly to the far left to Ukip's small minded, hard right, thinly veiled racist agenda. 

 

I think if you read my posts through, you'd find that I despair of the stupidity of usual Labour voters voting for a hard right party because they blame everything on immigrants and Europe. 

 

Ukip are aligned to the Tories and will never do a deal with Labour nor want to carry out centre left economic policies.  Labour voters who believe that Ukip will deliver something to the left of the Tories are my definition of deluded. 

 

I mentioned usual Labour voters who believe the NHS is safe under Ukip.  Those people can't have read nor understood the last Ukip manifesto.

thanks for clarifying Carnelian

 

Must admit UKIP always struck me a more a labour spin off type of party but then I've not investigated them that much as I had no interest in them as a party except to know they are something to be avoided at all costs..  

 

As I type this that Farage person is speaking on Andrew Carr..

"Labour spin off party!!!!!11111!!!"

I can sense certain members of my family spinning!

What can I say.. .they just never struck me as Tory types and still don't 

Really?

 

Not all Tories are public schoolboy toffs ...........in my head I envisage a lot of aspirational working/middle class who attatch themselves to a party who they believe will deliver the finer things in life to all. This is opposed to the middle/working class who want to see something a bit fairer and more equally shared out.

 

I remember my MiL and FiL always spouting on about how if those 'at the top' are doing well it all filters down etc. Quite ironic as they built their little empire paying staff as little as they could get away with whilst expecting 100% loyalty and commitment. 

 

That's just how I see it .............not everyone will see it that way of course.

If we had Proportional Representation, there would be a space for an anti-federalist left wing party and a proper left wing party that Labour really isn't.  There would also be more space for the BNP and their ilk.  I tend to think that is a price worth paying for a voting system that reflects people's true preferences rather than millions of votes being wasted.

I never thought all Tories were schoolboy toffs. .I vote Tory and that is the last thing that can be said of me 

 

I've always believed that we have to look after business so that it can grow and keep creating jobs for the workforce.. and to me all I ever saw was Labour people trying to bring business down by constantly striking until the smaller ones could no longer afford to run and were priced out of the markets because they were meeting unions demands for ever increasing pay, and in the case of peace-work for decreasing output per hour..

 

Probably gross generalisations and this was my opinion gained way back in the 70's when I was probably a naive teenager. .but it has stuck with me... I know things have changed but to me Labour have never been one for helping the businesses required to employ people..

 

and as I have said I am pretty naive about politics. .I am probably more a liberal than anything else.. as in the true sense of a liberal not the current lot, tho slightly right of the centre line.. I can see the case for all sides but more often or not I come down on the 'save the business first' side then it will look after the workers as it grows and creates more jobs ..

 

As I say naive, ill informed, who knows... mainly gut feeling tho

 

GJ . But that is actually quite an interesting point Olly made...and it made me ponder.  I'm not sure I would think of UKIP as a Labour spin off ,  but I wonder what the party breakdown was of those that voted UKIP ? When I was watching the results come in it certainly appeared as if they made equal gains in Tory , Liberal and hardcore Labour areas. And while I can't say I've given it much thought before ( and I stand to be corrected ), weren't the main BNP gains in previous elections in effectively * Labour heartlands* * waits for GJ's paint brush to hit the  opposite wall *  

My feelings almost word for word , and for essentially the same reasons  

Yeah spin off was probably the wrong word. .I meant they strike me more as Labour types than Tory types

Well we have three shops - we employ people and we do alright. In my experience it's not always the 'workers' who benefit when things are going well though - a lot of emloyers/directors ensure they take a hefty portion before anything filters down - the bankers seem to flourish while others were going to the wall.

 

I know the minimum wage/maternity leave can be difficult for small business but there really is (or has been) help available and just because it squeezes a bit it really doesn't mean that it isn't right and fair. 

 

I'm actually not very switched on this morning .............my responses (on reading back) don't make a lot of sense to me God knows how others are supposed to read it

 

I just don't like unfairness and injustice .............wherever you are on the employment ladder there should be fairness - I hate to see people exploited and the old 'we're all in this together' nonsense. The gap between rich and poor and the haves and have nots is wider than ever, 

 

^^^ Garbled sorry - it's lazy Sunday morning.

 

I think the thing is that there appear to be a lot of disaffected , disillusioned voters out there , and while I doubt very much that the council and European election results  will transfer to the General election ,  to simply dismiss them as either racist, loony right/left/or middle , or naive , is IMO quite frankly dangerous . People have concerns that they don't feel are being addressed by the * main* parties ....whether it is immigration or Europe....and it needs sorting . 

I think you're right Baz - a lot of voters do feel disillusioned and disaffected at the way things are in this country. A lot have suffered with having benefits cut, bedroom tax and wage freezes etc. These are hard times I do however think it's disingenuous to blame all the problems on EU membership and immigration ...........we should be looking elsewhere for the answers not using the very low tactic of turning the less fortunate members of society into scapegoats and having them turn on each other. It's very clearly a case of shifting blame whilst those who are at the root of the problem sip champagne and dodge taxes.

 

Things do need addressing - EU membership does need a full and honest debate in this country and there probably are things that need adjusting but to blame immigrants and EU policy for the failure of our economy and current problems is just a low blow and an easy cop out for the real culprits.

I'm actually sat chuckling to myself here. We are all quite politically diverse on here and some more passionate than others. Most of us are pretty entrenched in our beliefs and yet we go on tapping away at our keyboards getting our opinions out there (me especially)

 

I don't suppose for one minute that any of us will persuade another poster to change or alter their views ...............we keep trying though don't we?

 

Try as I might I can't keep my nose out and hammer out the same old stuff. Just want to say - I do respect and understand that others have differing opinions and I reiterate what I said before ^^^ - I mean no harm or disrespect.