They've just asked an ex-labour voter why they are voting UKIP - The answer? Fresh Party, Fresh Ideas!
Really? - I haven't noticed anything fresh or new.
Originally Posted by erinp:
Originally Posted by Saint:
MeerKats must wander around in pairs
So we can effectively 'Compare the meerkat'
Love it 
Hand guns should be legalised and licensed, says Nigel Farage
So now he wants to go down the road of the insane 'gun lobby'in America.
Swing yer Pants would stand against that policy
Definitely!
So, are we all voting 'swing yer pants' in next year's general election?
Originally Posted by Saint:
Swing yer Pants would stand against that policy
Originally Posted by Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing:
Definitely!
So, are we all voting 'swing yer pants' in next year's general election?
YES... Dave and Nick out! Trev and Simon in!
Originally Posted by Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing:
Definitely!
So, are we all voting 'swing yer pants' in next year's general election?
As long as it's not a cover for anything cos 'we don't do duvets'
Originally Posted by Soozy Woo:
Originally Posted by Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing:
Definitely!
So, are we all voting 'swing yer pants' in next year's general election?
As long as it's not a cover for anything cos 'we don't do duvets'
ROFL!
Originally Posted by jacksonb:
Just looking at Wiki and a summary of UKIP poloicies.
Abolition of inheritance tax -
A voucher system to offset the cost of private treatments-
Matrons to run hospitals rather than managers, that policy could have leg.Or are Matrons cheaper than managers?
Repeal of the human rights act-
and it goes on...
Matron is a bit of silly political clap trap, much like Grammar Schools. Assumed to be good without any further analysis needed.
Matron is a job title with specialised function, but really, when it comes to HR definitions and political games it can be defined to mean as wider or narrower range of duties as the HR department and government of the day sees fit. A bit like calling centre wage slaves being described as Account Executive Managers.
You could call a load of managers 'matrons' and they could be doing the exact same job as they were when they were called managers.
Originally Posted by Videostar:
Originally Posted by Carnelian:
Originally Posted by Dame_Ann_Average:
Originally Posted by Baz:
But if people get shouted down for those concerns Dame ....and accused of all sorts ....instead of being able to get it off their chest ....they are easy prey for extremists . And I'm just as scared about the swing to the far right in other European countries as you .
I am not sure about people voicing their opinions getting shouted down Baz...I think the constant blame for everything being put on the immigrants is wrong. I even agree with the Tories and Labour on immigration...talks need to be done. I think walking out on Europe would be the worst thing we could do, I think we would be in an awful mess 
I don't buy this 'shouted down' claim at all.
No, they are accused of racism...it's just as bad as being shouted down, it destroys freedom of speech...makes all the Liberal high minded classes feel like they have no case to answer, like their views on the world are the only ones worth hearing.
Heaven forbid that we should call racists out for being racists! The political correctness of the right wing demands we should ignore the scores of bigots that crawl out from under the Ukip stone!
If you want an example of shutting down debate, how about.
Tree hugger, beardy, sandal wearer, lefty, trendy, pinko, commie, Bolshi, Trott, dinosaur, Stalinist, Leninist, bed wetter, do gooder, champagne socialist (if they're rich), benefits junky (if they're poor), bleeding heart, PC zealot, Liberal high minded classes, Islington Elite, Loony leftie
All phrases that the right wing frequently use to shout down and rubbish left wing opinion.
The right wing excel in rubbishing opinion that it doesn't like.
I do get really weary of the hypocrisy of the right wing and its martyr playing routine.
I get weary of the right wing playing the victim all the time. Its newspapers owned by non-dom multi millionaires trying to tell everyone that a party that has a bigot exposed week after week, is in no way a racist party.
The right wing don't like it when the boot's on the other foot!
Your sort of received opinion, martyr act might go down well with Ukip and Tories but it doesn't stand up at all.
When the right disagrees with left wing opinion.
If the person is rich they're a "champagne socialist"
If the person is middle class, they're "middle class trendy" or similar
If the person is working class in work and a union member they're a 'dinosaur'
If the person is working class in work and not in a union then the right has the standby of calling them 'not aspirational, anti business and lazy'
If the person is unemployed they're a "benefits junky" or "career benefits dependent"
So the right covers all the bases, no one can legitimately have left wing opinion without it being ascribed to a flaw in their personality.
Originally Posted by Carnelian:
Originally Posted by Videostar:
Originally Posted by Carnelian:
Originally Posted by Dame_Ann_Average:
Originally Posted by Baz:
But if people get shouted down for those concerns Dame ....and accused of all sorts ....instead of being able to get it off their chest ....they are easy prey for extremists . And I'm just as scared about the swing to the far right in other European countries as you .
I am not sure about people voicing their opinions getting shouted down Baz...I think the constant blame for everything being put on the immigrants is wrong. I even agree with the Tories and Labour on immigration...talks need to be done. I think walking out on Europe would be the worst thing we could do, I think we would be in an awful mess
I don't buy this 'shouted down' claim at all.
No, they are accused of racism...it's just as bad as being shouted down, it destroys freedom of speech...makes all the Liberal high minded classes feel like they have no case to answer, like their views on the world are the only ones worth hearing.
Heaven forbid that we should call racists out for being racists! The political correctness of the right wing demands we should ignore the scores of bigots that crawl out from under the Ukip stone!
If you want an example of shutting down debate, how about.
Tree hugger, beardy, sandal wearer, lefty, trendy, pinko, commie, Bolshi, Trott, dinosaur, Stalinist, Leninist, bed wetter, do gooder, champagne socialist (if they're rich), benefits junky (if they're poor), bleeding heart, PC zealot, Liberal high minded classes, Islington Elite, Loony leftie
All phrases that the right wing frequently use to shout down and rubbish left wing opinion.
The right wing excel in rubbishing opinion that it doesn't like.
I do get really weary of the hypocrisy of the right wing and its martyr playing routine.
I get weary of the right wing playing the victim all the time. Its newspapers owned by non-dom multi millionaires trying to tell everyone that a party that has a bigot exposed week after week, is in no way a racist party.
The right wing don't like it when the boot's on the other foot!
Your sort of received opinion, martyr act might go down well with Ukip and Tories but it doesn't stand up at all.
Im hardly playing the martyr, just pointing out facts, it's the Liberal minded classes that began the insulting labelling of it's opponents.
And who are all these right wing bigots from UKIP that you speak of? are we still talking the MP's (ALL OF THEM) or are you making a sweeping generalising statement about the voters?
Im not bothered about idiot racists being called out for their attitude, my issue (more like fury) is when everyone to do with UKIP get tarred with the same brush....it's lazy, stupid and anti freedom of speech because it gives the opponents of UKIP a nice easy "get out of argument free card", a nice simple "you're all racists"
Reminds me of the idiot and unelected PM (for a few months) Gordon Brown, when he called a perfectly harmless woman who wanted to talk about immigration "A Bigoted old woman", she said nothing bigoted at all, but in the current crazy undemocratic climate even mentioning the "I" word is akin to burning a cross on someones lawn.
If it wasn't for UKIP no one in parliament would even mention immigration, and everyone would be ignoring all the powers that are being taken away from us by the EU, at least UKIP have started a much needed debate, even if you cant handle listening to another person's opinion. 
BTW, as I keep having to point out, there are defectors from both main party's, both Tory AND LABOUR.
Originally Posted by Carnelian:
Originally Posted by jacksonb:
Just looking at Wiki and a summary of UKIP poloicies.
Abolition of inheritance tax -
A voucher system to offset the cost of private treatments-
Matrons to run hospitals rather than managers, that policy could have leg.Or are Matrons cheaper than managers?
Repeal of the human rights act-
and it goes on...
Matron is a bit of silly political clap trap, much like Grammar Schools. Assumed to be good without any further analysis needed.
Matron is a job title with specialised function, but really, when it comes to HR definitions and political games it can be defined to mean as wider or narrower range of duties as the HR department and government of the day sees fit. A bit like calling centre wage slaves being described as Account Executive Managers.
You could call a load of managers 'matrons' and they could be doing the exact same job as they were when they were called managers.
All very true, but I think it implies that NHS managers under UKIP policy, would have medical/nursing training, people will like that idea and I wouldn't mind betting the more UKIP announce 'policies' such as this, the other parties,will pick up the reins and run with it.
Incidentally you will be pleased to know that Gillian Duffy voted Labour, still socialises with her MP and wouldn't dream of voting UKIP.
You've illustrated well by your comments on Gordon Brown that Politics is a big boys game. He was indeed, like Millibean, a poor communicator but to dismiss these people as idiots is way off the mark. This business about being unelected is spurious. Can you imagine peepil saying the same about Churchill?
Meanwhile I will continue to demonise UKIP and it's supporters because, like the Swing your pants party, SYPP, they are up to no good.
After I've finished the back bedroom.
You've illustrated well by your comments on Gordon Brown that Politics is a big boys game. He was indeed, like Millibean, a poor communicator but to dismiss these people as idiots is way off the mark. This business about being unelected is spurious. Can you imagine peepil saying the same about Churchill?
Meanwhile I will continue to demonise UKIP and it's supporters because, like the Swing your pants party, SYPP, they are up to no good.
After I've finished the back bedroom.
Originally Posted by Videostar:
Originally Posted by Carnelian:
Originally Posted by Videostar:
Originally Posted by Carnelian:
Originally Posted by Dame_Ann_Average:
Originally Posted by Baz:
But if people get shouted down for those concerns Dame ....and accused of all sorts ....instead of being able to get it off their chest ....they are easy prey for extremists . And I'm just as scared about the swing to the far right in other European countries as you .
I am not sure about people voicing their opinions getting shouted down Baz...I think the constant blame for everything being put on the immigrants is wrong. I even agree with the Tories and Labour on immigration...talks need to be done. I think walking out on Europe would be the worst thing we could do, I think we would be in an awful mess
I don't buy this 'shouted down' claim at all.
No, they are accused of racism...it's just as bad as being shouted down, it destroys freedom of speech...makes all the Liberal high minded classes feel like they have no case to answer, like their views on the world are the only ones worth hearing.
Heaven forbid that we should call racists out for being racists! The political correctness of the right wing demands we should ignore the scores of bigots that crawl out from under the Ukip stone!
If you want an example of shutting down debate, how about.
Tree hugger, beardy, sandal wearer, lefty, trendy, pinko, commie, Bolshi, Trott, dinosaur, Stalinist, Leninist, bed wetter, do gooder, champagne socialist (if they're rich), benefits junky (if they're poor), bleeding heart, PC zealot, Liberal high minded classes, Islington Elite, Loony leftie
All phrases that the right wing frequently use to shout down and rubbish left wing opinion.
The right wing excel in rubbishing opinion that it doesn't like.
I do get really weary of the hypocrisy of the right wing and its martyr playing routine.
I get weary of the right wing playing the victim all the time. Its newspapers owned by non-dom multi millionaires trying to tell everyone that a party that has a bigot exposed week after week, is in no way a racist party.
The right wing don't like it when the boot's on the other foot!
Your sort of received opinion, martyr act might go down well with Ukip and Tories but it doesn't stand up at all.
Im hardly playing the martyr, just pointing out facts, it's the Liberal minded classes that began the insulting labelling of it's opponents.
And who are all these right wing bigots from UKIP that you speak of? are we still talking the MP's (ALL OF THEM) or are you making a sweeping generalising statement about the voters?
Im not bothered about idiot racists being called out for their attitude, my issue (more like fury) is when everyone to do with UKIP get tarred with the same brush....it's lazy, stupid and anti freedom of speech because it gives the opponents of UKIP a nice easy "get out of argument free card", a nice simple "you're all racists"
Reminds me of the idiot and unelected PM (for a few months) Gordon Brown, when he called a perfectly harmless woman who wanted to talk about immigration "A Bigoted old woman", she said nothing bigoted at all, but in the current crazy undemocratic climate even mentioning the "I" word is akin to burning a cross on someones lawn.
If it wasn't for UKIP no one in parliament would even mention immigration, and everyone would be ignoring all the powers that are being taken away from us by the EU, at least UKIP have started a much needed debate, even if you cant handle listening to another person's opinion.
BTW, as I keep having to point out, there are defectors from both main party's, both Tory AND LABOUR.
I second that ( the highlighted bits of Vids post ) ...plus I get a bit sick of all this right wing , left wing rubbish ....why can't one have an opinion without it being ascribed to a particular side ! As Video pointed out , people of all persuasions apparently voted UKIP ....surely that suggests that there is a groundswell of opinion out there that , whether you countenance their views or not ...needs at least to be politely listened to 
Originally Posted by Baz:
Originally Posted by Videostar:
Originally Posted by Carnelian:
Originally Posted by Videostar:
Originally Posted by Carnelian:
Originally Posted by Dame_Ann_Average:
Originally Posted by Baz:
But if people get shouted down for those concerns Dame ....and accused of all sorts ....instead of being able to get it off their chest ....they are easy prey for extremists . And I'm just as scared about the swing to the far right in other European countries as you .
I am not sure about people voicing their opinions getting shouted down Baz...I think the constant blame for everything being put on the immigrants is wrong. I even agree with the Tories and Labour on immigration...talks need to be done. I think walking out on Europe would be the worst thing we could do, I think we would be in an awful mess
I don't buy this 'shouted down' claim at all.
No, they are accused of racism...it's just as bad as being shouted down, it destroys freedom of speech...makes all the Liberal high minded classes feel like they have no case to answer, like their views on the world are the only ones worth hearing.
Heaven forbid that we should call racists out for being racists! The political correctness of the right wing demands we should ignore the scores of bigots that crawl out from under the Ukip stone!
If you want an example of shutting down debate, how about.
Tree hugger, beardy, sandal wearer, lefty, trendy, pinko, commie, Bolshi, Trott, dinosaur, Stalinist, Leninist, bed wetter, do gooder, champagne socialist (if they're rich), benefits junky (if they're poor), bleeding heart, PC zealot, Liberal high minded classes, Islington Elite, Loony leftie
All phrases that the right wing frequently use to shout down and rubbish left wing opinion.
The right wing excel in rubbishing opinion that it doesn't like.
I do get really weary of the hypocrisy of the right wing and its martyr playing routine.
I get weary of the right wing playing the victim all the time. Its newspapers owned by non-dom multi millionaires trying to tell everyone that a party that has a bigot exposed week after week, is in no way a racist party.
The right wing don't like it when the boot's on the other foot!
Your sort of received opinion, martyr act might go down well with Ukip and Tories but it doesn't stand up at all.
Im hardly playing the martyr, just pointing out facts, it's the Liberal minded classes that began the insulting labelling of it's opponents.
And who are all these right wing bigots from UKIP that you speak of? are we still talking the MP's (ALL OF THEM) or are you making a sweeping generalising statement about the voters?
Im not bothered about idiot racists being called out for their attitude, my issue (more like fury) is when everyone to do with UKIP get tarred with the same brush....it's lazy, stupid and anti freedom of speech because it gives the opponents of UKIP a nice easy "get out of argument free card", a nice simple "you're all racists"
Reminds me of the idiot and unelected PM (for a few months) Gordon Brown, when he called a perfectly harmless woman who wanted to talk about immigration "A Bigoted old woman", she said nothing bigoted at all, but in the current crazy undemocratic climate even mentioning the "I" word is akin to burning a cross on someones lawn.
If it wasn't for UKIP no one in parliament would even mention immigration, and everyone would be ignoring all the powers that are being taken away from us by the EU, at least UKIP have started a much needed debate, even if you cant handle listening to another person's opinion.
BTW, as I keep having to point out, there are defectors from both main party's, both Tory AND LABOUR.
I second that ( the highlighted bits of Vids post ) ...plus I get a bit sick of all this right wing , left wing rubbish ....why can't one have an opinion without it being ascribed to a particular side ! As Video pointed out , people of all persuasions apparently voted UKIP ....surely that suggests that there is a groundswell of opinion out there that , whether you countenance their views or not ...needs at least to be politely listened to
Well said Baz. Interesting development, it would seem that in Thurrock there is talk of Labour and Conservatives banding together to make sure UKIP can't win What happened to having a choice, listening to the people's view and democracy?
Originally Posted by squiggle:
Originally Posted by Baz:
Originally Posted by Videostar:
Originally Posted by Carnelian:
Originally Posted by Videostar:
Originally Posted by Carnelian:
Originally Posted by Dame_Ann_Average:
Originally Posted by Baz:
But if people get shouted down for those concerns Dame ....and accused of all sorts ....instead of being able to get it off their chest ....they are easy prey for extremists . And I'm just as scared about the swing to the far right in other European countries as you .
I am not sure about people voicing their opinions getting shouted down Baz...I think the constant blame for everything being put on the immigrants is wrong. I even agree with the Tories and Labour on immigration...talks need to be done. I think walking out on Europe would be the worst thing we could do, I think we would be in an awful mess
I don't buy this 'shouted down' claim at all.
No, they are accused of racism...it's just as bad as being shouted down, it destroys freedom of speech...makes all the Liberal high minded classes feel like they have no case to answer, like their views on the world are the only ones worth hearing.
Heaven forbid that we should call racists out for being racists! The political correctness of the right wing demands we should ignore the scores of bigots that crawl out from under the Ukip stone!
If you want an example of shutting down debate, how about.
Tree hugger, beardy, sandal wearer, lefty, trendy, pinko, commie, Bolshi, Trott, dinosaur, Stalinist, Leninist, bed wetter, do gooder, champagne socialist (if they're rich), benefits junky (if they're poor), bleeding heart, PC zealot, Liberal high minded classes, Islington Elite, Loony leftie
All phrases that the right wing frequently use to shout down and rubbish left wing opinion.
The right wing excel in rubbishing opinion that it doesn't like.
I do get really weary of the hypocrisy of the right wing and its martyr playing routine.
I get weary of the right wing playing the victim all the time. Its newspapers owned by non-dom multi millionaires trying to tell everyone that a party that has a bigot exposed week after week, is in no way a racist party.
The right wing don't like it when the boot's on the other foot!
Your sort of received opinion, martyr act might go down well with Ukip and Tories but it doesn't stand up at all.
Im hardly playing the martyr, just pointing out facts, it's the Liberal minded classes that began the insulting labelling of it's opponents.
And who are all these right wing bigots from UKIP that you speak of? are we still talking the MP's (ALL OF THEM) or are you making a sweeping generalising statement about the voters?
Im not bothered about idiot racists being called out for their attitude, my issue (more like fury) is when everyone to do with UKIP get tarred with the same brush....it's lazy, stupid and anti freedom of speech because it gives the opponents of UKIP a nice easy "get out of argument free card", a nice simple "you're all racists"
Reminds me of the idiot and unelected PM (for a few months) Gordon Brown, when he called a perfectly harmless woman who wanted to talk about immigration "A Bigoted old woman", she said nothing bigoted at all, but in the current crazy undemocratic climate even mentioning the "I" word is akin to burning a cross on someones lawn.
If it wasn't for UKIP no one in parliament would even mention immigration, and everyone would be ignoring all the powers that are being taken away from us by the EU, at least UKIP have started a much needed debate, even if you cant handle listening to another person's opinion.
BTW, as I keep having to point out, there are defectors from both main party's, both Tory AND LABOUR.
I second that ( the highlighted bits of Vids post ) ...plus I get a bit sick of all this right wing , left wing rubbish ....why can't one have an opinion without it being ascribed to a particular side ! As Video pointed out , people of all persuasions apparently voted UKIP ....surely that suggests that there is a groundswell of opinion out there that , whether you countenance their views or not ...needs at least to be politely listened to
Well said Baz. Interesting development, it would seem that in Thurrock there is talk of Labour and Conservatives banding together to make sure UKIP can't win What happened to having a choice, listening to the people's view and democracy?
Exactly Squiggle 
Strikes me the *big parties* are running scared right now .....and I have to wonder why
But if it makes them stop and think then , whatever their policies, good for UKIP I say .
I don't think Tactical voting is a new thing. I know that my Mum and her friends are considering voting for William Haig this time around just to make sure UKIP are not elected.
Of course they are of the generation who remember this sort of nonsense from the last time, during the thirties.
Of course they are of the generation who remember this sort of nonsense from the last time, during the thirties.
And in addition to what I said above , I will also say this ....no party is all good , or all bad .....and as someone who has been voting for getting on for half a century ....I've voted Labour, Liberal and Conservative. So I really do object to being tarred with any *wing* brush ! I vote for the party I feel has more to offer the country and me ....not simply because it's right wing, left wing, or flying through the air wing!
Well said Baz. They say you can't get a cigarette paper between Labour, Conservatives and Liberal Democrats and there would certainly seem to be some truth in that. As the major proportion of the people of this country would seem to want to get out of Europe now it seems a pretty poor set-up when all 3 major parties have decided that no matter what they are determined to stay in.
Vote SYP !
Can anyone tell me why the 'majority' want to get out of Europe?
I can understand why some of the terms and conditions of membership may need tempering or modifying but ............to pull out altogether? Really?
Personally I can't see any benefit of 'standing alone' - it's a big world out there - what advantages are there to being a small 'independent?. What clout would we have in trade negotiations for import and export. What do we have to offer? The world has changed and we are not the 'power' we one was (or believed ourselves to be).
If ^^^ that seems a bit uneducated or naive it's because it is. I don't think it's really possible to get a proper picture/explanation as all the info out there seems to be biased one way or another.
Originally Posted by Baz:
I second that ( the highlighted bits of Vids post ) ...plus I get a bit sick of all this right wing , left wing rubbish ....why can't one have an opinion without it being ascribed to a particular side ! As Video pointed out , people of all persuasions apparently voted UKIP ....surely that suggests that there is a groundswell of opinion out there that , whether you countenance their views or not ...needs at least to be politely listened to
I was just about to post a question asking if far Left wingers called others, not in line with their thoughts, names as well ..am sure they do. . and am fairly sure all parts of the line not just far right or left have names for others parts of the line...
Totally agree with the BIB
That's my take on it too Soozy. It's a big world out there and we need to be part of a big grouping.
What doesn't initially add up is the UKIP finance. A party with less than forty thousand members can't finance this sort of campaign. Step forward Paul Sykes. Apparently he withdrew his finance from the Tories, bankrolled a load of anti Europe parties and was subsequently thrown out.
Hats off to David Cameron for refusing to be blackmailed by him.
What doesn't initially add up is the UKIP finance. A party with less than forty thousand members can't finance this sort of campaign. Step forward Paul Sykes. Apparently he withdrew his finance from the Tories, bankrolled a load of anti Europe parties and was subsequently thrown out.
Hats off to David Cameron for refusing to be blackmailed by him.
Joey Barton...Oh Dear.
Originally Posted by Soozy Woo:
Can anyone tell me why the 'majority' want to get out of Europe?
I can understand why some of the terms and conditions of membership may need tempering or modifying but ............to pull out altogether? Really?
Personally I can't see any benefit of 'standing alone' - it's a big world out there - what advantages are there to being a small 'independent?. What clout would we have in trade negotiations for import and export. What do we have to offer? The world has changed and we are not the 'power' we one was (or believed ourselves to be).
If ^^^ that seems a bit uneducated or naive it's because it is. I don't think it's really possible to get a proper picture/explanation as all the info out there seems to be biased one way or another.
I am politically naive but someone posted earlier about how once the EU was 'The Common Market' and now it is turning into The Untied States of Europe and we are being dictated to in all areas of our life by these bureaucrats instead of it being a way of trading with neighbours more easily.
I voted to Join the CM, never have I regretted a vote as I did that one when I see what it has turned into now.. I mean you get a court ruling laid down in this country and it is not seen as the final verdict, oh no off it goes to the EU at a huge cost for more and more appeals. .just one example..
Just curious why UKIP were so happy with all the MEP seats they won when one of their main proposals is to get us out of the EU.. .
Weird really
Originally Posted by Mount Olympus *Olly*:
Originally Posted by Soozy Woo:
Can anyone tell me why the 'majority' want to get out of Europe?
I can understand why some of the terms and conditions of membership may need tempering or modifying but ............to pull out altogether? Really?
Personally I can't see any benefit of 'standing alone' - it's a big world out there - what advantages are there to being a small 'independent?. What clout would we have in trade negotiations for import and export. What do we have to offer? The world has changed and we are not the 'power' we one was (or believed ourselves to be).
If ^^^ that seems a bit uneducated or naive it's because it is. I don't think it's really possible to get a proper picture/explanation as all the info out there seems to be biased one way or another.
I am politically naive but someone posted earlier about how once the EU was 'The Common Market' and now it is turning into The Untied States of Europe and we are being dictated to in all areas of our life by these bureaucrats instead of it being a way of trading with neighbours more easily.
I voted to Join the CM, never have I regretted a vote as I did that one when I see what it has turned into now.. I mean you get a court ruling laid down in this country and it is not seen as the final verdict, oh no off it goes to the EU at a huge cost for more and more appeals. .just one example..
Ditto on all points Olly
Originally Posted by Soozy Woo:
Can anyone tell me why the 'majority' want to get out of Europe?
I can understand why some of the terms and conditions of membership may need tempering or modifying but ............to pull out altogether? Really?
Personally I can't see any benefit of 'standing alone' - it's a big world out there - what advantages are there to being a small 'independent?. What clout would we have in trade negotiations for import and export. What do we have to offer? The world has changed and we are not the 'power' we one was (or believed ourselves to be).
If ^^^ that seems a bit uneducated or naive it's because it is. I don't think it's really possible to get a proper picture/explanation as all the info out there seems to be biased one way or another.
As Olly said , and I said earlier , I have no objections to being in a common trade market ....that's what the country voted for back in the 1970s .....but it's expanded to be far , far more than that now ...and that's where I feel the whole thing has come unglued . Trouble is I can't see that we have enough clout to change things from the inside now 
Originally Posted by Carnelian:
Originally Posted by jacksonb:
Just looking at Wiki and a summary of UKIP poloicies.
Abolition of inheritance tax -
A voucher system to offset the cost of private treatments-
Matrons to run hospitals rather than managers, that policy could have leg.Or are Matrons cheaper than managers?
Repeal of the human rights act-
and it goes on...
Matron is a bit of silly political clap trap, much like Grammar Schools. Assumed to be good without any further analysis needed.
Matron is a job title with specialised function, but really, when it comes to HR definitions and political games it can be defined to mean as wider or narrower range of duties as the HR department and government of the day sees fit. A bit like calling centre wage slaves being described as Account Executive Managers.
You could call a load of managers 'matrons' and they could be doing the exact same job as they were when they were called managers.
Well, today's Ward Managers are yesteryear's Matrons, just with a bit more paperwork possibly.
With regard to the court rulings etc. It's not happening on a daily basis is it? I personally am not offended if a decision is deemed controversial and an outsider takes an 'open view' on it. Sometimes that's a good thing isn't it?
And ..............we have taken or 'been forced' to take on quite a lot of good legislation with regard to workers rights/pays/conditions. A lot of our current rights and benefits are directly due to being a member of the European Union. I don't think we would have as good working conditions if the governments hands hadn't been forced TBH - employers should have a responsibility for the welfare and protection of their work force - it took the European Union to shame us into a lot of this legislation.
I realise sometimes it's red tapey and beauracratic and that's what needs addressing but we shouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bath water.
told you I was politically naive/ignorant Soozy
but who's to say we wouldn't have arrived at the more crucial pieces of legislation all by ourselves without someone else telling us to do it?
Originally Posted by Baz:
Originally Posted by Soozy Woo:
Can anyone tell me why the 'majority' want to get out of Europe?
I can understand why some of the terms and conditions of membership may need tempering or modifying but ............to pull out altogether? Really?
Personally I can't see any benefit of 'standing alone' - it's a big world out there - what advantages are there to being a small 'independent?. What clout would we have in trade negotiations for import and export. What do we have to offer? The world has changed and we are not the 'power' we one was (or believed ourselves to be).
If ^^^ that seems a bit uneducated or naive it's because it is. I don't think it's really possible to get a proper picture/explanation as all the info out there seems to be biased one way or another.
As Olly said , and I said earlier , I have no objections to being in a common trade market ....that's what the country voted for back in the 1970s .....but it's expanded to be far , far more than that now ...and that's where I feel the whole thing has come unglued . Trouble is I can't see that we have enough clout to change things from the inside now
We never did have Baz. Charles de Gaulle said 'Europe is Germany and France, everything else is just garnishes'.
If the idea of Europe is such a good one why was it necessary to lie and tell us that we would be voting for a 'Common Market' and there would be no giving away of our sovereignty? I voted No incidentally.
Originally Posted by Mount Olympus *Olly*:
told you I was politically naive/ignorant Soozy
but who's to say we wouldn't have arrived at the more crucial pieces of legislation all by ourselves without someone else telling us to do it?
You have far more faith than me Olly ................I really don't think we would have done. Just my opinion.
Originally Posted by squiggle:
Originally Posted by Baz:
Originally Posted by Soozy Woo:
Can anyone tell me why the 'majority' want to get out of Europe?
I can understand why some of the terms and conditions of membership may need tempering or modifying but ............to pull out altogether? Really?
Personally I can't see any benefit of 'standing alone' - it's a big world out there - what advantages are there to being a small 'independent?. What clout would we have in trade negotiations for import and export. What do we have to offer? The world has changed and we are not the 'power' we one was (or believed ourselves to be).
If ^^^ that seems a bit uneducated or naive it's because it is. I don't think it's really possible to get a proper picture/explanation as all the info out there seems to be biased one way or another.
As Olly said , and I said earlier , I have no objections to being in a common trade market ....that's what the country voted for back in the 1970s .....but it's expanded to be far , far more than that now ...and that's where I feel the whole thing has come unglued . Trouble is I can't see that we have enough clout to change things from the inside now
We never did have Baz. Charles de Gaulle said 'Europe is Germany and France, everything else is just garnishes'.
If the idea of Europe is such a good one why was it necessary to lie and tell us that we would be voting for a 'Common Market' and there would be no giving away of our sovereignty? I voted No incidentally.
Have we given away our sovereignty? I'm not even sure I know what that means. I think that's just emotive language thrown around by Euro Sceptics - (I don't mean you Squiggle).
Originally Posted by Soozy Woo:
Originally Posted by squiggle:
Originally Posted by Baz:
Originally Posted by Soozy Woo:
Can anyone tell me why the 'majority' want to get out of Europe?
I can understand why some of the terms and conditions of membership may need tempering or modifying but ............to pull out altogether? Really?
Personally I can't see any benefit of 'standing alone' - it's a big world out there - what advantages are there to being a small 'independent?. What clout would we have in trade negotiations for import and export. What do we have to offer? The world has changed and we are not the 'power' we one was (or believed ourselves to be).
If ^^^ that seems a bit uneducated or naive it's because it is. I don't think it's really possible to get a proper picture/explanation as all the info out there seems to be biased one way or another.
As Olly said , and I said earlier , I have no objections to being in a common trade market ....that's what the country voted for back in the 1970s .....but it's expanded to be far , far more than that now ...and that's where I feel the whole thing has come unglued . Trouble is I can't see that we have enough clout to change things from the inside now
We never did have Baz. Charles de Gaulle said 'Europe is Germany and France, everything else is just garnishes'.
If the idea of Europe is such a good one why was it necessary to lie and tell us that we would be voting for a 'Common Market' and there would be no giving away of our sovereignty? I voted No incidentally.
Have we given away our sovereignty? I'm not even sure I know what that means. I think that's just emotive language thrown around by Euro Sceptics - (I don't mean you Squiggle).
I think it means the right to be able to govern oneself ( in respect go a country ) Soozy ....or at least that's how I understand it ....something that IMO belonging to the EU has eroded ...again IMO .
For those who are in agreement they want to leave the European Union, like Soozy can someone please explain how this is going to benefit us? I for one don't want to and I have my reasons, but I would really be interested in arguments put forward by those that do want to leave
On the 1st November 2014 the right of Parliament to legislate over us in 43 areas, the important ones, will be removed and be made subject to approval. They call it QMV, Qualified Majority Voting.
Each member State will lose it right of Veto over these areas, so Cameronâs idea of negotiation to recover any areas goes out the window at the same time.
The following areas of competence will switch from requiring unanimous approval of all member states to qualified majority voting only:
Initiatives of the High Representative for Foreign Affairs â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Administrative co-operation â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Asylum â Nice: QMV; Lisbon: QMV
Border controls â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Citizensâ initiative regulations â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Civil protection â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Committee of the Regions â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Common defence policy â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Crime prevention incentives â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Criminal judicial co-operation â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Criminal law â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Culture â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Diplomatic & Consular protection â Nice: Unanimity Lisbon: QMV
Economic & Social Committee â Nice: QMV Lisbon: QMV
Emergency international aid â Nice: Unanimity Lisbon: QMV
Energy â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
EU budget â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Eurojust â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
European Central Bank â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
European Court of Justice â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Europol â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Eurozone external representation â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Foreign Affairs High Representative election â Lisbon: QMV
Freedom of movement for workers â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Freedom to establish a business â Nice: Unanimity Lisbon QMV
Freedom, security, justice, co-operation & evaluation â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Funding the Common Foreign & Security Policy â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
General economic interest services â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Humanitarian aid â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Immigration â Nice: QMV; Lisbon: QMV
Intellectual property â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Organisation of the Council of the EU â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Police co-operation â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
President of the European Council election â Lisbon: QMV
Response to natural disasters & terrorism â Lisbon: QMV
Rules concerning the Armaments Agency â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Self-employment access rights â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Social Security Unanimity â Nice: QMV; Lisbon: QMV
Space â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Sport â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Structural & Cohension Funds â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Tourism â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Transport â Nice: Unanimity; Lisbon: QMV
Withdrawal of a member state â Lisbon: QMV
A brief review of the Treaties confirms the Transitional arrangements which allow, only on specific votes, for the Nice Treaty Provisions to apply from 1st November 2014 until March 2017, hence I imagine PM David Cameronâs determination to delay our referendum beyond that date, tying Britain for ever within the non-democratic, totalitarian and now clearly despotic EU.