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Originally Posted by Garage Joe:
I can understand a slight unease from ourselves. There's an element of the Wild West about this chain of events. We don 't have much in common with the Americans and would have preferred Bin Liner to have his day in court. We like to subject such nutjobs to derision, disrespect, sarcasm etc. Yet! I can't think of any practical way to achieve that. Still alive, and in custody, he might present some further security threat to the Spanish, the Russians, the British, the USA, or any other country he has wronged. Maybe this way out, and disposing of his body in a secret location was a better way out.

 

It was never only Bin Laden that poses the threat though.  There are plenty of those in the East who are peed off with the US and only too happy to make a stand.  As Che Guevara once said, '"Wherever death may surprise us, let it be welcome, provided that this our battle cry may have reached some receptive ear and another hand may be extended to wield our weapons."  You have the initiating terrorists who believe they are fighting for a cause, and then you have the fundamentalists that come after them who act on the back of outrage and utter hatred and they are the most dangerous of all.  I don't believe the world is a safer place now he's dead.  

 

 

Temps
Originally Posted by Issy:
Originally Posted by PeterCat:


Another MLK quote which I think is quite apt here:


"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."


Hi Peter

 

That is a really good and pertinent quote. I hope you don't mind me using it to challenge you on something.

If you do believe that, how can you say that you will get the bunting out when Mrs Thatcher dies?

Okay we know what she did to this country, but she is still someone's mother....She is also a very sick old woman... is that not poetic justice enough, if indeed that is what we are looking for?

The quote is the ideal I believe we should all aim for, Issy. Yes, there are still a few people I hate. I do try not to and sometimes I fail. It still doesn't make what Dr. King said any less true.

 

I was joking when I said that about Thatcher, though it wouldn't be funny if there wasn't a nugget of truth in it. I shall try not to feel joyful over her death, even if it's hard for me to feel love for her.

PeterCat
I don't think that anyone was suggesting that the world is any safer. An ideological battle is taking place. Alan Quaida and the Taliban find our non believing, educated, freedom of expression, sexual freedom, women's rights, lifestyle an abomination. They will do their best to stop it. I'm not sure that Doctor King and Che had any idea, and for a better idea google Zappa and "dumb all over!"
Garage Joe
Originally Posted by Temps:
Originally Posted by Marguerita:
Originally Posted by spongebob squarepants:
Originally Posted by Cagney:
Originally Posted by PeterCat:
Originally Posted by Antiope:

Fuk knows why "crowds are gathering at the gates of the White House and singing.." though, as is being reported.  

Because the neoCons made Bin Laden into the boogie man, and a large part of the American public have bought into that. Therefore they're celebrating because they think the boogie man is dead.

As far as a lot of Americans are concerned he was worse than the boogie man. He was real. If they want to stand outside the White House and sing....good on them. 

spot on cags xx

I agree  with Cagney and spongee who can blame the Americans  they have every right to feel victorious it was on his orders that gave the go ahead for 9/11 there were British killed that day too, he was also willing to let his own men die whilst he hid all over the place ..ask the families whose relatives  died that day ..they will say justice has been done..

What about the justice for the Afghans and the Iraqi's who had nothing to do with the Taliban, Al Quaeda or any other terrorist organisations who have been shot, killed, maimed, their lands destroyed by bombs falling far from where they should? Do they not deserve justice? Are they now allowed go to the US and shoot Obama?

 

Temps I am talking about 9/11we know it was Al Quaeda who did this we cannot expect any country  in the world to sit back and do nothing and let these scum terrorists bomb wherever and whoever they want,he was a wanted man.. they got him I applaud them  for that,if any of my family were killed by terrorists and they were caught /killed I would feel justice has been done,nobody likes wars and sadly innocent people will be killed, terrorism is a different kettle of fish they are cowards and do not care who they kill they deliberately leave a bomb were it is busy  then walk away,sorry I dont compare this to soldiers who are at war.. they dont walk into a supermarket leave a bomb and walk away hoping it will kill man woman and children..

Marguerita
Originally Posted by Marguerita:
Temps I am talking about 9/11we know it was Al Quaeda who did this we cannot expect any country  in the world to sit back and do nothing and let these scum terrorists bomb wherever and whoever they want,he was a wanted man.. they got him I applaud them  for that,if any of my family were killed by terrorists and they were caught /killed I would feel justice has been done,nobody likes wars and sadly innocent people will be killed, terrorism is a different kettle of fish they are cowards and do not care who they kill they deliberately leave a bomb were it is busy  then walk away,sorry I dont compare this to soldiers who are at war.. they dont walk into a supermarket leave a bomb and walk away hoping it will kill man woman and children..

then we appear to have differing views on justice Marge.  Innocent people are being killed on both sides of the fence.  One gets 'justice' (though it's really more revenge) the other gets an 'oops sorry we meant to get your neighbour', all because they're wearing a government financed uniform?

 

I don't understand how that's fair, or how it's supposed to resolve the situation.

Temps
Originally Posted by Garage Joe:
Nevertheless, even in spite of so called precision bombing with so called smart weapons, we know that innocent women and kids, and even men will be killed.

I have said this above yes it sadly does happen in wars but I am talking about terrorists Bin Laden ..Al Quaeda.. what happened in America that is what this thread is about ..is it not..

Marguerita
Originally Posted by Garage Joe:
I don't think that anyone was suggesting that the world is any safer. An ideological battle is taking place. Alan Quaida and the Taliban find our non believing, educated, freedom of expression, sexual freedom, women's rights, lifestyle an abomination. They will do their best to stop it. I'm not sure that Doctor King and Che had any idea, and for a better idea google Zappa and "dumb all over!"

 

It's not only the Al Quaeda and the Taliban...there are the sympathising groups, like the ones that carried out the London bombings and the Madrid bombing.  These people come out of nowhere!  *stops typing before I end up wearing a tinfoil hat*

Temps
Originally Posted by PeterCat:
Originally Posted by Issy:
Originally Posted by PeterCat:


Another MLK quote which I think is quite apt here:


"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."


Hi Peter

 

That is a really good and pertinent quote. I hope you don't mind me using it to challenge you on something.

If you do believe that, how can you say that you will get the bunting out when Mrs Thatcher dies?

Okay we know what she did to this country, but she is still someone's mother....She is also a very sick old woman... is that not poetic justice enough, if indeed that is what we are looking for?

The quote is the ideal I believe we should all aim for, Issy. Yes, there are still a few people I hate. I do try not to and sometimes I fail. It still doesn't make what Dr. King said any less true.

 

I was joking when I said that about Thatcher, though it wouldn't be funny if there wasn't a nugget of truth in it. I shall try not to feel joyful over her death, even if it's hard for me to feel love for her.

That is absolutely fair enough Peter - we are only human after all and there are people whose death I will not shed tears over I have to say...

FM
Originally Posted by Temps:
Originally Posted by Garage Joe:
I don't think that anyone was suggesting that the world is any safer. An ideological battle is taking place. Alan Quaida and the Taliban find our non believing, educated, freedom of expression, sexual freedom, women's rights, lifestyle an abomination. They will do their best to stop it. I'm not sure that Doctor King and Che had any idea, and for a better idea google Zappa and "dumb all over!"

 

It's not only the Al Quaeda and the Taliban...there are the sympathising groups, like the ones that carried out the London bombings and the Madrid bombing.  These people come out of nowhere!  *stops typing before I end up wearing a tinfoil hat*

 

Marguerita

well i don't care how un pc it sounds....i'm glad he's dead....he was human vermin and i'm glad he's been killed...........there's a massive difference in my book to the americans celebrating this to the taliban celebrating 9/11.............he was a terrorist who plotted the deaths of thousands of people that day.......and the taliban rejoiced killing innocent people...men women and children....on the planes and in the towers.........the americans are celebrating the death of a mass murderer

 

SS
Originally Posted by spongebob squarepants:

well i don't care how un pc it sounds....i'm glad he's dead....he was human vermin and i'm glad he's been killed...........there's a massive difference in my book to the americans celebrating this to the taliban celebrating 9/11.............he was a terrorist who plotted the deaths of thousands of people that day.......and the taliban rejoiced killing innocent people...men women and children....on the planes and in the towers.........the americans are celebrating the death of a mass murderer

 

Exactly

Marguerita

I think there's a huge difference between being glad that Bin Laden is dead and the ghoulish jubilation by some people in the USA.  People were quick to condemn those who celebrated the atrocities on 9 September, and quite rightly so.  But it wasn't only innocent westerners who were killed as a result of the attacks on 9 September - since then, thousands upon thousands of innocent civlians have been killed in illegal wars in Afghanistan and Iraq which began as a consequence of the events of that day.  And now supposedly civilised people are behaving no better than the people they so despise. 

FM

I've never understood people saying terrorists are cowards.  We may revile their actions but cowardice does not come into it.  Takes some nuts to fly a plane into a building tbh.

 

 

As to justice - well there's a difference between vengeance and justice, that much should be obvious.  In this case, I don't particularly have a problem that the man has been killed.  The Americans were fully entitled to go and get him and if he picked up a gun and started shooting when they rang the door bell they had little choice than to let fly with their own shootahs.  People do have an awful habit of ending up dead when that happens.

 

 

But, and it's a big but, the ghoulish celebration of the death of any human being, is vile.  And it cheapens the individuals who do so.  I feel sorry for those who do it tbh.  Something has died in their own soul to enable them to behave like that.

FM
Originally Posted by spongebob squarepants:

well i don't care how un pc it sounds....i'm glad he's dead....he was human vermin and i'm glad he's been killed...........there's a massive difference in my book to the americans celebrating this to the taliban celebrating 9/11.............he was a terrorist who plotted the deaths of thousands of people that day.......and the taliban rejoiced killing innocent people...men women and children....on the planes and in the towers.........the americans are celebrating the death of a mass murderer

 

 

Tbf, in terms of pure numbers, "we've" killed a damned sight more of them than they have of "us".

FM
Originally Posted by Antiope:

I've never understood people saying terrorists are cowards.  We may revile their actions but cowardice does not come into it.  Takes some nuts to fly a plane into a building tbh.

 

 

As to justice - well there's a difference between vengeance and justice, that much should be obvious.  In this case, I don't particularly have a problem that the man has been killed.  The Americans were fully entitled to go and get him and if he picked up a gun and started shooting when they rang the door bell they had little choice than to let fly with their own shootahs.  People do have an awful habit of ending up dead when that happens.

 

 

But, and it's a big but, the ghoulish celebration of the death of any human being, is vile.  And it cheapens the individuals who do so.  I feel sorry for those who do it tbh.  Something has died in their own soul to enable them to behave like that.

i'd argue bin laden was a coward...if he believed in his movement so much why was he not flying one of the planes?...he got others to do it for him.it doesn't take bravery to fly a plane into a building.....it takes brainwashing into believing they were going to a better place and pure hatred......

 

i don't believe it cheapens someone to celebrate the death of a mass murderer.many americans,britons..all nationalities may have lost someone that day.......should we bow our heads in respect to bin laden or others like him?..when the yorkshire ripper pegs it will the nation say 'aw poor peter'...of course they won't...those who were affected by him will be glad he's left this earth

SS
Originally Posted by Antiope:
Originally Posted by spongebob squarepants:

well i don't care how un pc it sounds....i'm glad he's dead....he was human vermin and i'm glad he's been killed...........there's a massive difference in my book to the americans celebrating this to the taliban celebrating 9/11.............he was a terrorist who plotted the deaths of thousands of people that day.......and the taliban rejoiced killing innocent people...men women and children....on the planes and in the towers.........the americans are celebrating the death of a mass murderer

 

 

Tbf, in terms of pure numbers, "we've" killed a damned sight more of them than they have of "us".

who are you terming as 'we'  and 'them'.?  our troops?.the taliban?

SS
Originally Posted by spongebob squarepants:

.

i'd argue bin laden was a coward...if he believed in his movement so much why was he not flying one of the planes?...he got others to do it for him.it doesn't take bravery to fly a plane into a building.....it takes brainwashing into believing they were going to a better place and pure hatred......

 

i don't believe it cheapens someone to celebrate the death of a mass murderer.many americans,britons..all nationalities may have lost someone that day.......should we bow our heads in respect to bin laden or others like him?..when the yorkshire ripper pegs it will the nation say 'aw poor peter'...of course they won't...those who were affected by him will be glad he's left this earth

 

Why on Earth would you suggest that the alternative to celebration is "bow[ing] our heads in resect to Bin Laden"?   That's a bit silly isn't it?  There are other alternatives you know.

 

As to the cowardice thing - we'll have to disagree on that one.  I have no respect or positive consideration towards the actions and life of Osama Bin Laden but to look at his life and say, "Yaah, deffo a coward there" is absolute nonsense. 

 

 

And nations tend to be made up of myriad different opinions, Sponge.  Not a single collective one you can speak for.

FM
Originally Posted by Antiope:

I've never understood people saying terrorists are cowards.  We may revile their actions but cowardice does not come into it.  Takes some nuts to fly a plane into a building tbh.

 

 

As to justice - well there's a difference between vengeance and justice, that much should be obvious.  In this case, I don't particularly have a problem that the man has been killed.  The Americans were fully entitled to go and get him and if he picked up a gun and started shooting when they rang the door bell they had little choice than to let fly with their own shootahs.  People do have an awful habit of ending up dead when that happens.

 

 

But, and it's a big but, the ghoulish celebration of the death of any human being, is vile.  And it cheapens the individuals who do so.  I feel sorry for those who do it tbh.  Something has died in their own soul to enable them to behave like that.

I don't think this can be proven.

I don't agree with celebrating a death for sick purposes, but some people deserve not to be here. Not in society at all. If they continue to kill people whatever you do to help them. 

Ev (Peachy)
Originally Posted by Antiope:
Originally Posted by spongebob squarepants:

.

i'd argue bin laden was a coward...if he believed in his movement so much why was he not flying one of the planes?...he got others to do it for him.it doesn't take bravery to fly a plane into a building.....it takes brainwashing into believing they were going to a better place and pure hatred......

 

i don't believe it cheapens someone to celebrate the death of a mass murderer.many americans,britons..all nationalities may have lost someone that day.......should we bow our heads in respect to bin laden or others like him?..when the yorkshire ripper pegs it will the nation say 'aw poor peter'...of course they won't...those who were affected by him will be glad he's left this earth

 

Why on Earth would you suggest that the alternative to celebration is "bow[ing] our heads in resect to Bin Laden"?   That's a bit silly isn't it?  There are other alternatives you know.

 

As to the cowardice thing - we'll have to disagree on that one.  I have no respect or positive consideration towards the actions and life of Osama Bin Laden but to look at his life and say, "Yaah, deffo a coward there" is absolute nonsense. 

 

 

And nations tend to be made up of myriad different opinions, Sponge.  Not a single collective one you can speak for.

nations may have a myriad of opinions....so do people...you seem to suggest my opinions are 'a bit silly' and 'absolute nonsense'....because they don't fit in with how you view the situation...i can't speak for anyone else..and you can't speak for me

 

i'm really not going to pretend anything other than i'm glad he's dead..cos that's how i feel......

 

really gtg restaurant awaits!

SS
Originally Posted by Ev (Peachy):
Originally Posted by Antiope:

I've never understood people saying terrorists are cowards.  We may revile their actions but cowardice does not come into it.  Takes some nuts to fly a plane into a building tbh.

 

 

As to justice - well there's a difference between vengeance and justice, that much should be obvious.  In this case, I don't particularly have a problem that the man has been killed.  The Americans were fully entitled to go and get him and if he picked up a gun and started shooting when they rang the door bell they had little choice than to let fly with their own shootahs.  People do have an awful habit of ending up dead when that happens.

 

 

But, and it's a big but, the ghoulish celebration of the death of any human being, is vile.  And it cheapens the individuals who do so.  I feel sorry for those who do it tbh.  Something has died in their own soul to enable them to behave like that.

I don't think this can be proven.

I don't agree with celebrating a death for sick purposes, but some people deserve not to be here. Not in society at all. If they continue to kill people whatever you do to help them. 

 

I'm afraid I do think that taking pleasure to the extend of chanting and being happy at the death of any human being has very little positive to say about the individuals doing it.  And not all those who were intimately touched by 9/11 have been like that by any stretch.

 

I've heard plenty interviewed in the past few days who were reflective that the whole thing, all of it, was and is just a very shitty blot on our two bob little planet and humanity in general.

 

There's little positive to be said tbh.  And certainly no "victory" to celebrate.

 

FM
Originally Posted by Antiope:
Originally Posted by Ev (Peachy):
Originally Posted by Antiope:

I've never understood people saying terrorists are cowards.  We may revile their actions but cowardice does not come into it.  Takes some nuts to fly a plane into a building tbh.

 

 

As to justice - well there's a difference between vengeance and justice, that much should be obvious.  In this case, I don't particularly have a problem that the man has been killed.  The Americans were fully entitled to go and get him and if he picked up a gun and started shooting when they rang the door bell they had little choice than to let fly with their own shootahs.  People do have an awful habit of ending up dead when that happens.

 

 

But, and it's a big but, the ghoulish celebration of the death of any human being, is vile.  And it cheapens the individuals who do so.  I feel sorry for those who do it tbh.  Something has died in their own soul to enable them to behave like that.

I don't think this can be proven.

I don't agree with celebrating a death for sick purposes, but some people deserve not to be here. Not in society at all. If they continue to kill people whatever you do to help them. 

 

I'm afraid I do think that taking pleasure to the extend of chanting and being happy at the death of any human being has very little positive to say about the individuals doing it.  And not all those who were intimately touched by 9/11 have been like that by any stretch.

 

I've heard plenty interviewed in the past few days who were reflective that the whole thing, all of it, was and is just a very shitty blot on our two bob little planet and humanity in general.

 

There's little positive to be said tbh.  And certainly no "victory" to celebrate.

 

Ant

 

I agree taking pleasure to that extent is sick as well. Some can argue, does it make you any better than the perpetrator.

Although my original thoughts on certain people who continue to kill and are dangerous and always will be in society still stands. 

Ev (Peachy)
Originally Posted by Growlybear:

I think there's a huge difference between being glad that Bin Laden is dead and the ghoulish jubilation by some people in the USA.  People were quick to condemn those who celebrated the atrocities on 9 September, and quite rightly so.  But it wasn't only innocent westerners who were killed as a result of the attacks on 9 September - since then, thousands upon thousands of innocent civlians have been killed in illegal wars in Afghanistan and Iraq which began as a consequence of the events of that day.  And now supposedly civilised people are behaving no better than the people they so despise. 

I agree, i felt uncomfortable watching the "celebrations". Of course, families and friends of those lost on 9/11 will be glad he is dead, but i am not sure if this rather ghoulash way of celebrating was right.

FM
Originally Posted by Ev (Peachy):

 

I agree taking pleasure to that extent is sick as well. Some can argue, does it make you any better than the perpetrator.

Although my original thoughts on certain people who continue to kill and are dangerous and always will be in society still stands. 

 

I don't disagree with that.  For a long time I've been a fan of indeterminate sentences.  If you're a danger to society, you're taken out of circulation.  But that's a different thread really, I guess, lol.

 

FM
Originally Posted by Antiope:
Originally Posted by spongebob squarepants:

well i don't care how un pc it sounds....i'm glad he's dead....he was human vermin and i'm glad he's been killed...........there's a massive difference in my book to the americans celebrating this to the taliban celebrating 9/11.............he was a terrorist who plotted the deaths of thousands of people that day.......and the taliban rejoiced killing innocent people...men women and children....on the planes and in the towers.........the americans are celebrating the death of a mass murderer

 

 

Tbf, in terms of pure numbers, "we've" killed a damned sight more of them than they have of "us".

You are talking shite there or are you just talking of how many westerners they've killed..what about Muslims, Pakistani's and Sunni's etc....

stonks
Originally Posted by stonks:

You are talking shite there or are you just talking of how many westerners they've killed..what about Muslims, Pakistani's and Sunni's etc....

 

I'm really not.  For starters why not have a look at the number of deaths caused by the Iraqi sanctions.  Or is UNICEF with it's 500,000 dead children - to use one source only - an Al Qaeda propaganda source?

FM
Originally Posted by Antiope:
Originally Posted by stonks:

You are talking shite there or are you just talking of how many westerners they've killed..what about Muslims, Pakistani's and Sunni's etc....

 

I'm really not.  For starters why not have a look at the number of deaths caused by the Iraqi sanctions.  Or is UNICEF with it's 500,000 dead children - to use one source only - an Al Qaeda propaganda source?

And in a seperate study it is estimated that Al Qaeda are responsible for 2 to 5 million deaths but hay ho I know who's side I'd prefer to be on and its not on a side that refuses womens and young girls rights, who kill their own people if they don't tow the line and I certainly won't defend a millionaire nutter that could have used his money to feed his people rather than kill them....

stonks
Originally Posted by stonks:
Originally Posted by Antiope:
Originally Posted by stonks:

You are talking shite there or are you just talking of how many westerners they've killed..what about Muslims, Pakistani's and Sunni's etc....

 

I'm really not.  For starters why not have a look at the number of deaths caused by the Iraqi sanctions.  Or is UNICEF with it's 500,000 dead children - to use one source only - an Al Qaeda propaganda source?

And in a seperate study it is estimated that Al Qaeda are responsible for 2 to 5 million deaths but hay ho I know who's side I'd prefer to be on and its not on a side that refuses womens and young girls rights, who kill their own people if they don't tow the line and I certainly won't defend a millionaire nutter that could have used his money to feed his people rather than kill them....

 

I wasn't aware anyone was defending him or his ideas.

FM

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