Yeah i suppose Scotty but how without the holiday form? There's not a lot she can do, she was soooo mad about this morning though as they have another member of staff off this week (hence the refused request in the first place)

Joe you've lost me sorry.

In all honesty - if she was only due to be off for three days and the holiday had already been booked wasn't it a bit inflexible/unfair to decline the holiday request?

I think sacking is a bit harsh - employer/employee loyalty and respect should work both ways IMO.

I'm seeing things, i'm sure i saw Scotty post

Does she not have to provide a sick note if she's off longer than  about 3 days?

We do

Bit of a bee in my bonnet. When I started work all of our cleaners were staff  with the same rights as the rest of us. At some point our idiot managers decided to outsource. Generous payoffs and natural wastage saw off our cleaners, and heralded the age of the contract cleaners.  Increasing targets, staff turnover, and constant pressure led to an unhappy workforce, and I found myself dispensing as much advice to them as my own members.

I'm sure we've discussed contract cleaners back in the day!

Or in other words my default position is always to be in favour of the workers.

Maybe my friend will calm down about it all, it's a small family business with not many staff, so it's gonna be a a tough week for everyone else with 2 off... The member of staff is taking the pee though right?

Probably!

There are plenty of forums online dealing with employment law mind. You may get better advice from one of them. Their law, especially now, tends to side with employers.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm - we are a small family business too. I'm pretty sure we'd be annoyed but - I'm also sure that if we knew someone had actually booked a holiday and were asking for days off that were due to them we really would bend over backwards to accommodate it - the sickness thing was a bit inevitable really. If the holiday had been granted in the first place (albeit grudgingly) then arrangements for staffing could have been made.

Frustrating situation, I know, Jen and it is one which often crops up in my place of employment. If people are declined holiday then they just go sick which causes a lot of problems. However, I am of the opinion that people are entitled to take their leave when they want it and it is better to grant it and make alternative provision. Employment laws are that the worker cannot be accused of not being genuinely ill because, basically, you are calling them a liar (even if you know they are lying). With the paperwork missing (who has taken/mislaid it?), maybe your friend should consider a disciplinary but I don't think she can sack her which I think is a bit harsh anyway 

I deleted my post Jen, (got to watch the old blood pressure ) but now you`ve quoted...

Yes, your mate would have to prove that the superviser wasn`t ill but I doubt she`ll be able to.

Maybe she could secretly film her enjoying her holiday.   

I agree with Soozy`s posts.   

tis a bit cheeky but ....  

not too sure you can just *sack* or even demote instantly these days - even if employee has done something really bad like stealing etc there are procedures that have to be gone through before they are actually released from work place

with or without the holiday form it is their word against their bosses if they are actually sick or not ?  suspicious I know if they have holiday booked and refused time off .......  maybe asking for a sick note might be in order on her return 

Lol Scotty,

MrsH can they ask for a sick note if she has only missed 3 days work?

Most places have a 'back to work interview' policy.

Maybe it would be a good idea for your friend to have an honest talk with her member of staff.

been out of the job a while now and dont remember how many days you are allowed before sick note required TBH 

in hind sight I jested as it is irrelevant really - she has gone and is holidaying 

on her return though I agree with Ferny a back to work interview and possibly a warning would be appropriate

employment laws are so complicated these days compared to *back in the day* when I was a Manager 

It is best for your mate to get legal advice from either a solicitor who specialises in employment law, or the people who advise on legal matters at whatever federation the cleaning company is a member of (if there is a federation).

Very risky to start sacking people or to start demoting people (which could be regarded as constructive dismissal) without going through the correct procedure otherwise the supervisor could make a claim against the company.

If there is a staff manual, check through that so see what it has to say.

I'm on the side of the employee,  i'm afraid.

I doubt  that  your friend can  sack her, there are all the  processes to go  through first, warnings, letters, etc.

If your friend realised she was going to be short staffed in that period anyway,which she  would have done, because she refused a hlioday request, maybe she would have been  better to have got a temp in for a couple of weeks, then mrs  worker could have had her  holiday, the work  would have got done and your mate wouldn't be all wound up now....

and this forum would be a  more boring place...

That's kind of what i suggested she do (Slim and MrsH) When she returns call her in and have a word cos if she wanted to do anything more it could backfire. I think my friends main concern is everyone starts taking the pee as their supervisor did and got away totally scott free.

Thanx for the replies guys

So true .........................I don't know what us sit at homes would have to keep us amused without other folks real life dilemmas to ponder over 

I say your mate, as a manager should know where she stands on this?

and unless this employee has had other warnings, I am sure the most she can do is give a warning for unauthorised absence.

For 3 days all an employee needs is a Self Cert for illness,I doubt very very much there are grounds for dismissal ,that could and probably would lead to an unfair dismissal case....Unless it's changed greatly it is usually 3 verbal warnings and then a written which can then lead to dismissal if anything further occurs,gross misconduct used to be the only basis for instant dismissal.I doubt she can be demoted either for this,dismissal or demotion could lead to lawsuits and cost a lot of money in legal costs and damages.

If your mate can prove that she has gone on the holiday then she has grounds to take further action against her.  Best advice is for her to get in touch with ACAS who can advise her on best possible actions keeping her within the law.

Cinds  

Jen`s not going daft, I deleted my original post.  

Spoke to Mr Lee who was a manager,he said it could depend on the reasons for being sick.

She should ask her solicitor.   I can't see they could sack her, what's the policy on sick leave in the UK?  If you're 3 days off do you have to get a sick cert from your doc?  If she gets a sick cert not much your friend  could do I imagine.  Is it a sackable offense?  Dont you get 3 strikes and then you're gone?  Does she have a contract?  Does that say anything about this kind of thing and what happens if holidays are declined?

Other than that, if she comes back with a tan, I'd give her a smack

Having refused the  holiday request, I can't really believe that  the manager would expect the emloyee not to go.

If her whole family were going, seriously would she stay behind?

9. Does the decision in this case mean that staff can actually go on holiday while they are off sick?

Yes, possibly, depending on where they want to go on holiday and the reasons they have stated for their absence. 
Whether a worker is on paid or unpaid sick leave, they should not be prevented from travelling, and possibly going away on holiday. So long as the worker continues to meet the conditions for eligibility and qualification for statutory sick pay (SSP) or occupational sick pay (OSP), the worker must continue to be paid if they travel away from home on holiday, even if that means going abroad. However, as you would expect, an employer can decide to withhold SSP or OSP (depending on what their policy says) if they discover that the worker is undertaking activities that should not be possible given the stated reasons for the sickness absence, for example, going on a rock climbing holiday while off work with back pains.

Policies that have a blanket restriction on workers requesting leave to go on holiday while they are off sick may be at risk of unlawfully discriminating against workers in certain circumstances. For example, workers who have a mental health illness, such as depression, and who qualify as disabled under the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 may benefit from a holiday and it would probably be seen as a reasonable adjustment to permit this. Also, a policy that denies those workers whose country of origin is not the UK the opportunity to travel to visit friends or family in their country of origin during their sick leave may result in indirect race discrimination on the grounds of nationality under the Race Relations Act 1976.

Instead of a general restriction on travel, employers are recommended to have a statement in their annual leave policy that advises workers that they are permitted to travel but if they do “something inconsistent with their stated reasons for sickness absence, or something that worsens their illness or prolongs their absence, the local authority reserves the right to stop statutory sick pay and/or occupational sick pay, and in some cases this may result in disciplinary action".

I'm making lunch and feeding kids so back and forth,sorry.....Mr Lee also said that if the manager has stated her intentions are to sack the employee then she,the manager,would be in bother if she did proceed to do so...He's also rattling on about 6 weeks prior notice requesting holidays ,I'm getting lost .

Slim that's more or less what Mr Lee was explaining to me,the reasons for being *sick* do determine if you can holiday/travel etc.

Telling your employer about your illness

If you have been off work sick for seven days or less your employer can ask you to confirm that you’ve been ill. You can do this by filling in a form yourself when you return to work. This is called self-certification.

Many employers have their own self-certification forms. If your employer doesn’t have their own form, instead they may use an Employee's Statement of Sickness form.

If you have been off work sick for more than seven days you will need to get a Statement of Fitness to Work (fit note) from your GP or the doctor that treated you in hospital.

The fit note allows your doctor to provide you with more information on how your condition affects your ability to work. It may suggest ways in which you can return to work, for example, changes to your working hours or different duties for a temporary time. This will help your employer to understand how they might be able to help you return to work sooner. You and your employer will be able to talk about how this will benefit your return to work.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Em...essabsence/DG_185054

Yes but as a supervisor she would have known the staffing situation and in my opinion should have checked whether she could have the time off before she booked a holiday.

I'd jack it.

 I had realised, but it's much more amusing to think that someones just going a bit doolally.

I dont suppose that theres much your mate can do about it now, but she should impliment a policy that staff do not book holidays before they have booked the time off work

you have a point.

grudgingly so.

we need to establish precisely who knew what and when.

we can't be expected to make  fine legal descisions  with out the full picture.