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quote:
Originally posted by Daniel J*:
Most people don't have access to all the facts and so it is not an option to challenge the given explanation for an event. It's not mere gullibility. In fact, there's a lot to be be said for the principle of parsimony when seeking to explain something; William of Occam, if you guys are hot for famous people and quotations.

Furthermore, it's all very well for investigative journalists and people like that to question the received explanations by actually involving themselves but what does it achieve for people to sit at home with a web browser and convince themselves of an alternative, usually patchy and sinister, version of events?

Tapping one's nose, hinting at cabals and intrigue, and looking pityingly at the gullible masses is probably quite satisfying, especially if one is a bit insecure or inclined to paranoia. Being suspicious of a particular event is perhaps reasonable but people who follow these things avidly, jumping from one to another, start to look like they have a state of mind, not a questioning mind.

It's one thing allowing for the possibility of a different chain of events to the generally accepted one. It's quite another to assume that the accepted chain of events have been manipulated. The Reichstag may well have been burned by the Nazis to cause a crisis. I bet most people probably don't know about the event at all, most people wouldn't care even if they did, and we probably have no way of knowing one way or the other now. Moreover, it doesn't actually matter.


que? Confused
china
slightly off topic here for a minute...I've just read through this whole thread and can I just say I have never seen a more classic example of ganging up on a poster. Shake Head

You are all the first ones to shout about being accused of being in a clique...but by god...when you read through this thread from start to finish with an outsider perspective it doesn't look good.

CO may not get everything right...or back his fcts up properly, but then again who said you have to be perfect to post here? He does however start some very interesting debates which people can contribute to and discuss on an adult level.

As you were...and sorry for butting in Disappointed
pepsi
quote:
Originally posted by pepsi:
slightly off topic here for a minute...I've just read through this whole thread and can I just say I have never seen a more classic example of ganging up on a poster. Shake Head

You are all the first ones to shout about being accused of being in a clique...but by god...when you read through this thread from start to finish with an outsider perspective it doesn't look good.

CO may not get everything right...or back his fcts up properly, but then again who said you have to be perfect to post here? He does however start some very interesting debates which people can contribute to and discuss on an adult level.

As you were...and sorry for butting in Disappointed
Clapping Clapping Clapping Clapping
S
quote:
Originally posted by Shelob:
quote:
Originally posted by pepsi:
slightly off topic here for a minute...I've just read through this whole thread and can I just say I have never seen a more classic example of ganging up on a poster. Shake Head

You are all the first ones to shout about being accused of being in a clique...but by god...when you read through this thread from start to finish with an outsider perspective it doesn't look good.

CO may not get everything right...or back his fcts up properly, but then again who said you have to be perfect to post here? He does however start some very interesting debates which people can contribute to and discuss on an adult level.

As you were...and sorry for butting in Disappointed
Clapping Clapping Clapping Clapping


Agreed and well done OP for not rising to the bait Clapping
kazzy
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel J*:
Most people don't have access to all the facts and so it is not an option to challenge the given explanation for an event. It's not mere gullibility. In fact, there's a lot to be be said for the principle of parsimony when seeking to explain something; William of Occam, if you guys are hot for famous people and quotations.

Furthermore, it's all very well for investigative journalists and people like that to question the received explanations by actually involving themselves but what does it achieve for people to sit at home with a web browser and convince themselves of an alternative, usually patchy and sinister, version of events?

Tapping one's nose, hinting at cabals and intrigue, and looking pityingly at the gullible masses is probably quite satisfying, especially if one is a bit insecure or inclined to paranoia. Being suspicious of a particular event is perhaps reasonable but people who follow these things avidly, jumping from one to another, start to look like they have a state of mind, not a questioning mind.

It's one thing allowing for the possibility of a different chain of events to the generally accepted one. It's quite another to assume that the accepted chain of events have been manipulated. The Reichstag may well have been burned by the Nazis to cause a crisis. I bet most people probably don't know about the event at all, most people wouldn't care even if they did, and we probably have no way of knowing one way or the other now. Moreover, it doesn't actually matter.


yeah I hear what you are saying, BUT one CAN check on some things that ARE FACTS

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2261

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662

those 2 links are of events or sugestions of actions to be taken by the American government in order to LIE to, and even KILL their own people as a pretext for military actions against another country,
NOW taking just those 2 incidents into account(there are more) is it therefor not an unreasonable step to WONDER about the events of 11/9?
old hippy guy
quote:
Originally posted by pepsi:
slightly off topic here for a minute...I've just read through this whole thread and can I just say I have never seen a more classic example of ganging up on a poster. Shake Head

You are all the first ones to shout about being accused of being in a clique...but by god...when you read through this thread from start to finish with an outsider perspective it doesn't look good.

CO may not get everything right...or back his fcts up properly, but then again who said you have to be perfect to post here? He does however start some very interesting debates which people can contribute to and discuss on an adult level.

As you were...and sorry for butting in Disappointed


Clapping Clapping ..but then....I would say that wouldnt I? I suppose me n YOU are a clique now Big Grin
old hippy guy
I love this line, and it about sums it up
"We Americans are the ultimate innocents. We are forever desperate to believe that this time the government is telling us the truth."

oh AND THIS ONE

"The whole point of a democracy is to have leaders responding to the public will, and here this is the complete reverse, the military trying to trick the American people into a war that they want but that nobody else wants."
old hippy guy
quote:
Originally posted by old hippy guy:
quote:
Originally posted by pepsi:
slightly off topic here for a minute...I've just read through this whole thread and can I just say I have never seen a more classic example of ganging up on a poster. Shake Head

You are all the first ones to shout about being accused of being in a clique...but by god...when you read through this thread from start to finish with an outsider perspective it doesn't look good.

CO may not get everything right...or back his fcts up properly, but then again who said you have to be perfect to post here? He does however start some very interesting debates which people can contribute to and discuss on an adult level.

As you were...and sorry for butting in Disappointed


Clapping Clapping ..but then....I would say that wouldnt I? I suppose me n YOU are a clique now Big Grin


Just because we are RL partners doesn't mean I have to agree with you. We are individuals with our own points of views and our own opinions on things...just as are all the other posters in this forum. Unless someone is actually personally abusing someone then I believe everyone has the right to post their beliefs and I respect them for standing up for them, without it descending into "he said" "she said" petty argument.

Believe me if you posted something I didn't agree with I would debate it to the ends of the world against you Wink
pepsi
quote:
Originally posted by pepsi:
slightly off topic here for a minute...I've just read through this whole thread and can I just say I have never seen a more classic example of ganging up on a poster. Shake Head

I think you have to see this thread in context with CO's paranoia, general arsey-ness, abuse, accusations, and flouncing elsewhere. He's just being ribbed now in that context. His clique thing managed to pull a whole load of random posters together and set himself up as a lightning rod for mockery. It's like he's been handed a gun, promptly shot himself in the foot, and then blamed the FBI. It's faintly absurd, in other words, and mostly self-inflicted.
FM
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel J*:
I think you have to see this thread in context with CO's paranoia, general arsey-ness, abuse, accusations, and flouncing elsewhere. He's just being ribbed now in that context. His clique thing managed to pull a whole load of random posters together and set himself up as a lightning rod for mockery. It's like he's been handed a gun, promptly shot himself in the foot, and then blamed the FBI. It's faintly absurd, in other words, and mostly self-inflicted.
I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular but I've only given him/her a bit of a ribbing because he/she went totally overboard on the first occasion I posted in one of their threads, saying that I was a sicko who had old history with him/her when I'd never heard of them before. Confused Confused Confused

Seems that's hunky-dory though. Smiler
PG
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel J*:
quote:
Originally posted by pepsi:
slightly off topic here for a minute...I've just read through this whole thread and can I just say I have never seen a more classic example of ganging up on a poster. Shake Head

I think you have to see this thread in context with CO's paranoia, general arsey-ness, abuse, accusations, and flouncing elsewhere. He's just being ribbed now in that context. His clique thing managed to pull a whole load of random posters together and set himself up as a lightning rod for mockery. It's like he's been handed a gun, promptly shot himself in the foot, and then blamed the FBI. It's faintly absurd, in other words, and mostly self-inflicted.



okey point taken, but as I don't see this "elsewhere" where the OP has done this I can't comment on that ...I can only go by what I read in here...as I might guess do many other posters and I was commenting on how the thread came across to me as an outsider Smiler
pepsi
Basically if your behaviour has meant a lot of people will mock you it doesn't mean you have been 'ganged' up on. The OP rather rudely attacked me with a 'butt out' as a first response to something had said the other night then because I took a bit of umbrage and had a bit of a laugh with him there were clique accusations etc followed by a ridiculous flounce that was an attempt to eke sympathy and an invite to chat (so presumably the OP chats with other posters elsewhere though I'm sure that is not termed a 'clique') . Then of course foloowing the flounce there is a transparent conspiracy theory thread, inviting debate. Who can blame many fm's for jumping on it. However the so called attack was not coordinated, all I can say is there must be a few who are thinking the same.
J
quote:
Originally posted by old hippy guy:

its sad but true the masses believe what they are TOLD to believe, even more so today that at anytime in history,
how many people actualy question what the news papers or tv news TELL them, course, WE have a FREE press our media doesnt lie,
ya average joe likes his opinion handed to him in a quick soundbite...


Completely agree. Even the term 'conspiracy theorist' conjures up an image of an over-imaginative loony...look at the first several pages of this thread with the goading about 'conspiracy theories' and tin hats etc, all meant to ridicule to OP. The negative association is no accident, it is deliberately pushed by the media. Now, take away the word 'theory' and what are you left with? A conspiracy. Do people really believe that governments are honest and that these 'conspiracies' don't exist? That's naive and worrying, come the revolution, you'll all be watching 'Britain's Got Talent' sheesh.

I agree there are many questions need answering about 9/11. Like, why did the planes explode shortly BEFORE impact with the towers? Why was the Bin Laden family allowed to fly out of the US later the same day, with the whole world on alert and all flights apparently cancelled?

And, to many of the people who took the mick on the first several pages...of COURSE there's no clique, you just HAPPEN to know each other from other sub forums, innit? Coincidence? Me and my conspiracy THEORIES! That must make me a tin foil hat wearer Roll Eyes

Wave
fracas
quote:
Originally posted by fracas:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny Gabrielwise:
I don't know DanielJ either. So we're members on some of the same subforums, sure, but we've never exchanged a post between each other to the best of my knowledge.


So, there was only you and Deej ripping the piss earlier? None of your pals?
Roll Eyes
Well, the reason for mentioning Daniel J is the fact that it was me and him that the OP was ripping into the other day. Of course, that says nothing about the OP inviting people to chat elsewhere to dissect the thread. Heaven forbid it be 'pals' he was talking to.........


I can do rolly eyes too, look -----> Roll Eyes
PG
quote:
Originally posted by Penny Gabrielwise:
Well, the reason for mentioning Daniel J is the fact that it was me and him that the OP was ripping into the other day. Of course, that says nothing about the OP inviting people to chat elsewhere to dissect the thread. Heaven forbid it be 'pals' he was talking to.........


Brill, internet rows being perpetuated again. It's always the same people Wink Wink Wink


quote:
I can do rolly eyes too, look -----> Roll Eyes


Smashing Thumbs Up
fracas
I know ALL of you...and I KNOW you are all NOT a clique ...or any like a gang... I was just commenting on how this thread came across to an outsider Frowner

I'm sorry... I shouldn't have said anything..and tbh it's one of the reasons I don't post very much here...the more lenient moderation, although good and a refreshing change, gives leeway to much more condemnation of posts and often turns what could be a potentially good debate thread into a free for all piss take though Frowner

I'll shut up and go back to my silly little games on facebook
pepsi
Back on topic!

The only thing that puzzles me about the 11/9 attacks.....is the way the Towers fell, as if they had been professionally demolished. I know their construction was done in a different manner to the older skyscrapers, so that they would have been less stable than say...the Empire State Building, but the 'house of cards' collapse is a puzzler.
Kaytee
quote:
Originally posted by fracas:
quote:
Originally posted by old hippy guy:

its sad but true the masses believe what they are TOLD to believe, even more so today that at anytime in history,
how many people actualy question what the news papers or tv news TELL them, course, WE have a FREE press our media doesnt lie,
ya average joe likes his opinion handed to him in a quick soundbite...


Completely agree. Even the term 'conspiracy theorist' conjures up an image of an over-imaginative loony...look at the first several pages of this thread with the goading about 'conspiracy theories' and tin hats etc, all meant to ridicule to OP. The negative association is no accident, it is deliberately pushed by the media. Now, take away the word 'theory' and what are you left with? A conspiracy. Do people really believe that governments are honest and that these 'conspiracies' don't exist? That's naive and worrying, come the revolution, you'll all be watching 'Britain's Got Talent' sheesh.

I agree there are many questions need answering about 9/11. Like, why did the planes explode shortly BEFORE impact with the towers? Why was the Bin Laden family allowed to fly out of the US later the same day, with the whole world on alert and all flights apparently cancelled?

And, to many of the people who took the mick on the first several pages...of COURSE there's no clique, you just HAPPEN to know each other from other sub forums, innit? Coincidence? Me and my conspiracy THEORIES! That must make me a tin foil hat wearer Roll Eyes

Wave


well frankly no there isn't. I have some posters I have seen repeatedly over the years and of course have chatted to some on sub forums, that's no secret, but certainly not all and certainly not on this and the other related threads. I think there is a lot of paranoia being displayed here, and I'll continue taking the pee where I see fit. There are certainly plenty posting on this thread and others in the same ilk as myself who I don't know from adam. Sorry if that's not what you expect. But certainly the ones who cry 'clique' are also members of other forums. I certainly gravitate sometimes towards chums when I see them online same as I would if I walked in a bar and saw someone I knew there, I'd say hello. and will continue doing so. and where I think something is pant wettingly funny and inviting a poke, i'll give it a poke. nuff said.
J
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel J*:
Well, I've found that repeatedly asking the same valid question of a poster who tries to ignore it because it's related to an inconvenient truth tends to elicit a pretty aggressive response. But I don't mind that myself. Ninja


i always answer your posts in a non-aggressive way-i think

i do, dont i?
china
LOOK!! I said forget I even raised the issue! I'm really really sorry...I said what I did and don't take it back because I genuinely felt uncomnfortable reading through the thread. In no way was it meant to be a dig at anyone or an invite to start a different argument off in the thread.

I've apologised for taking it off topic and I've asked for people to leave it.

I know what these "gang mentality" type accusations lead to and it just never ends. I am in NO WAY accusing any individual of it...I was just commenting on how perception of reading through this thread can lead to it.

I said it before...I'll say it again louder ...

I KNOW ALL OF YOU IN VARIOUS WAYS AND I KNOW NONE OF YOU ARE A "CLIQUE" OR ANY SUCH THING.

please can we leave it now and let the thread go back on topic? Frowner

I wish I'd kept me mouth shut now Disappointed

Sorry folks
pepsi
The OP has no interest in debate, that’s the ONLY thing apparent in reading through this thread.

If you were sat in company in RL and someone continually asked for thoughts and opinions and blanked those which didn’t correspond with their own you’d think that someone was a fud, this is no different.
J
quote:
Originally posted by JasmineJ:
The OP has no interest in debate, that’s the ONLY thing apparent in reading through this thread.

If you were sat in company in RL and someone continually asked for thoughts and opinions and blanked those which didn’t correspond with their own you’d think that someone was a fud, this is no different.


Indeed, except that I might use a different term, for I am not Scottish.
Garage Joe

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