so sad to read this ...........  what a waste of young lives

Rule number 1 - know your enemy
This is is like Vietnam all over again


RIP lads

So tragic, God Bless each and every one of them and their Families

That's so sad but I'm afraid to say predictable

huh?  They are trying to train?

I imagine it's to train these people to become soldiers so they can take over defence of the country and the UK can pull out.

ah right.

We were watching 'em train a bunch of disinterested souls last week. Both agreed that this would happen. Policy rethink required. You can't impose western democracy (sic) on tribesmen.

No you can't crossy.  But that's the whole problem with what's going on in the East.  The West stamping their authority and beliefs without understanding or accepting the cultures already there.

But I guess that's for another day

After the Halloween debate, the crap popular culture, and the poisonous foodstuffs we have imposed from the US of A, I cannot do anything but agree Temps.

sad day

Well, quite.

We didn't just arrive at that ourselves, it took hundreds of years and it's embedded in our heads and our social fabric.  Even with a democratic government, it still doesn't mean anything else like equality, human rights, and the rule of law necessarily follows.

They're training the police force over there, as well as helping the army.  The murderer was a police recruit, I think.Like Iraq, once internal security breaks down, it's very hard to get it back.  Bizarrely, I think Afghanistan was most stable and most liberal under their brief period of communist rule.

Yes! they were. No prizes for guessing who trained up the Taliban and colleagues  (prop. Osama Bin laden) to undermine the system.

As a woman, I think imposing democracy on tribesmen is the only way things will improve at all.

We are still working on the men here, but at least we have some voice.

I dread watching the news at the moment.

Women had a voice over there at one point.  They held senior positions in places like universities and took an active role in public life.  I don't suppose Soviet rule was popular even amongst the general population but I'm sure it was better than the internecine warfare among the tribes afterwards and the subsequent Taliban leadership.  That's one thing state communism has in its favour, it tends to treat men and women in the same way.

Terribly sad

Indeed.

Communism with a vote is fine by me!

Tragic, a dreadful waste of life. My thoughts are with their families RIP

Indeed this is a two way street, I am not keen on having someone else's beliefs and authority stamped on me regardless of my culture.

Rev

There are women all over the world in such a situation.

Luckily, we've been safe in the UK so far.  However, we don't have the safeguards in place to stop it happening.  The easiest and most obvious safeguard is to make the UK a constitutionally secular state.  That way, the Muslim fascists and the Catholic fascists and other religious groups can't foist their nonsense on the rest of us.

One agrees  with Danjay I'm not sure how "easy" that is though but. How many times do you hear someone put the idea forward. The next thing you would hear is that you were stamping on someone's culture.

The constitution itself is the hard thing.  That's probably 20 years work so we'd better start now! 

I'm not proposing we stamp on anyone's culture.  They have a right to that culture, subject to the overaching law, and I want to protect that.  I just want to limit its reach.  So, Sharia Law is limited to contract law between consenting parties and certainly not allowed to worm itself into criminal law.  Catholic organisations can't lean on ministers to force through exemptions to things like the Goods and Services Act simply because service providers are Catholic.  And so on.

*Offers oneself as  Danjay's agent*

Who thinks we'll "win" in Afghanistan?

Hands up.

Hmm, it's only news when the dead are British.

Not true. Mainly Pakistanis and Iraqis this week.

Keep up.

Ah, yes, you're right:  tragic loss of lives.

So many countries have tried to tame Afghanistan and so many have failed.  So many young men of different nationalities have lost their lives in Afghanistan over the years that it makes me wonder if it would be better to leave these countries alone and not interfere in another man's land.  It is arrogant to think and presume that the people of Afghanistan want democracy.  They have managed for thousands of years without democracy.  The treacherous terrain in Afghanistan is understood by the Taliban, they know their own people, and it is an unwinnable war imo

Those young people who got killed yesterday by a rogue policeman have left grieving families behind who may wonder if the waste of their young lives was worth it.  The death toll is now in the hundreds.  And for what?

What about the Afghans who don't want the Taliban back?
The ones who fought to get rid of the Taliban. The ones who risked their lives to cast votes for a government.

Is it not their land as well?

A vast majority of the Afghan people do not want the Taliban back Blizz, that is a given.  But they seem to hold the power in Afghanistan at the moment.  The poor ordinary Afghan has always been faced with Warlords of some kind, never being allowed to rule their own country, and this has been going on for a very long time.  For Western countries to presume to know what the Afghan people want is a dangerous business.  Afghanistan is a tribal country and although they did hold elections, most people who voted did vote under duress.  The President now has got back in by default because his opposition pulled out.  The record shows that many countries have tried in Afghanistan and many have failed.  This is not the first attempt by Britain to bring peace to Afghanistan, there are many British graves dotted throughout that country.  Afghanistan is not Iraq, the terrain is different, and that is why so many people have failed throughout the years to bring stability to it. 

But there will be six more coffins returning to Britain soon, and I am wondering why lessons have not been learnt from history.

I understand the history and I know that the latest election was a complete mess, but they don't vote under duress - they risk their lives to vote.

If we abandoned them now, they won't have peace.

My grandson goes in the marines in December, I really hope he does not like it and leaves whilst he can. It worries me sick.

I sympathise with how you are feeling - my Lad was all for signing up till last year and I have to say I was relieved but wouldnt have stopped him.  I have four close family members in the services 2 have done active service in the war zones in very recent years and one is off for a second tour of Afghanistan very soon ,   two however have never left England during their time in except for annual holidays 

I think it does depend on what trade they go in as - as to whether they would be expected to go to these areas

I am not sure what trade he will be doing MrsH I just hope he will be safe, he is only 19. I too hope all our soldiers will be safe and send my condolences to those who have lost loved ones.

Probably.  Strictly speaking it's not our 'war' though, it's a UN mission to rescue a failed state.  The UK does not need to be involved necessarily to the extent we are; we're there because of Nato commitments through ISAF.  I don't know how effective UNAMA is but Afghanistan won't stop being a failed state solely due to ISAF actions.  The UN has other resources to call on.  In fact, resolution 1833 (2008) ran out a couple of weeks ago, we're on resolution 1890 (2009) now and that calls on other member states to contribute towards ISAF's efforts.