Dame_Ann_Average posted:Sprout posted:Does that not show though, that no one in government has a clue?
I told you at the time that I knew things I couldn't disclose and this one one of them
Well we disclosed it!!
'member I told you. No reason to leave. No plan to leave. No idea about the future,
Crisis of hegemony all round! :smug:
Garage Joe posted:Well we disclosed it!!
'member I told you. No reason to leave. No plan to leave. No idea about the future,
Crisis of hegemony all round! :smug:
I think if people had taken the time to find out what the EU entails instead of trusting the media we maybe would be in a different situation GJ instead of the positions we are in now, The clue was in the leave campaign ...Farage, Gove and Johnson 
Garage Joe posted:Well we disclosed it!!
'member I told you. No reason to leave. No plan to leave. No idea about the future,
Crisis of hegemony all round! :smug:
Yep, although the EU isn't the best, we could've fought from the inside. Instead people chose to leave, and although it was the vote it was, I still don't think it was the right one
The government has seen off an attempt to add conditions to its Brexit bill as a Conservative rebellion was avoided.
MPs rejected a bid by Labour's Chris Leslie to force the government to consult Parliament on the deal struck with the EU before it is finalised.
It came after ministers pledged that a "meaningful" vote would be offered.
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Meaningful to whom?
Are people that gullible? It's very unlikely to be meaningful for the ordinary 'person in the street.'
I still maintain that after the American election and the subsequent Trump farce and fiasco allied to increasing Russian nonsense and general Middle East uncertainty that we at the fashionable end of Europe should stick together.
Speaking in the Commons on Monday, Prime Minister Theresa May warned MPs not to "obstruct" the will of UK voters by changing the Brexit bill.
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Could someone remind/point out to May that the voter (and only some) only voted to LEAVE. They did not vote on the BREXIT BILL. The contents of the bill have been decided upon by May and May alone, as far as I understand.
According to the humorous journalist Rod Liddle it's quite probable that the people in the other thread voted Brexit.
It's a bit late to the party (this picture), but I still kinda like it when I saw it. One of those pictures where the photographer must have been waiting and hoping he would leave in that direction and that way.
David Davis says:-
"However they voted in the referendum, the majority of people now want the prime minister to be able to get on with the job,"
Do they? When was this known? Was there a poll on people's current opinion?
If so why didn't I get invited to take part?
If there was no poll, how can he say WHAT the majority want?
So basically he and May are saying that we should get out of Europe under her terms, REGARDLESS of everyone elses opinions or concerns!
She has said she will take the UK out of the EU even if MPs reject the deal she is offered.
Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing posted:David Davis says:-
"However they voted in the referendum, the majority of people now want the prime minister to be able to get on with the job,"
Do they? When was this known? Was there a poll on people's current opinion?
If so why didn't I get invited to take part?
Yes, I particularly hate when people speak on behalf of me when I have had no input whatsoever.
I'm watching now and he has just been asked a question about breaking election pledge and said "I don't know, I can't speak for everyone else".
I'm sick and tired of hearing "The British people vote for" from self serving rightists like Davies.
The British (biased towards aged and ignorant) people voted by a small majority to leave the EU, and that doesn't imply that 'the British people' endorsed hard Brexit. How can it when the Brexit snake oil salesmen were telling the country that "Germany wants to sell us cars" and "Europe needs us more than we need it"?
Carnelian posted:I'm sick and tired of hearing "The British people vote for" from self serving rightists like Davies.
The British (biased towards aged and ignorant) people voted by a small majority to leave the EU, and that doesn't imply that 'the British people' endorsed hard Brexit. How can it when the Brexit snake oil salesmen were telling the country that "Germany wants to sell us cars" and "Europe needs us more than we need it"?
Another sweeping geralisation .......not sure how you know the make up of those that voted out .....but if you are correct then the inference behind your statement seems to be that the aged and ignorant aren't allowed to have an opinion ...a rather dangerous premise imo
great to have it clarified today, we have no plan and no clue I was reading the full transcript earlier
Dame_Ann_Average posted:
great to have it clarified today, we have no plan and no clue I was reading the full transcript earlier
It's time for all those who voted out to come forward and lay out all their considered plans and ideas to help us transition in the best way possible.
Or as I suspect, the people campaigning to leave never actually had a plan if the vote went thier way.
Article 50: Theresa May to trigger Brexit process next Wednesday
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39325561
I'm expecting a starting gun, balloons and mass panic in the streets.
Enthusiastic Contrafibularities posted:Article 50: Theresa May to trigger Brexit process next Wednesday
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39325561
I'm expecting a starting gun, balloons and mass panic in the streets.
Enthusiastic Contrafibularities posted:Article 50: Theresa May to trigger Brexit process next Wednesday
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39325561
I'm expecting a starting gun, balloons and mass panic in the streets.
Not sure about the gun or the balloons, but I think the mass panic is a distinct possibility!
Baz posted:Carnelian posted:I'm sick and tired of hearing "The British people vote for" from self serving rightists like Davies.
The British (biased towards aged and ignorant) people voted by a small majority to leave the EU, and that doesn't imply that 'the British people' endorsed hard Brexit. How can it when the Brexit snake oil salesmen were telling the country that "Germany wants to sell us cars" and "Europe needs us more than we need it"?
Another sweeping geralisation .......not sure how you know the make up of those that voted out .....but if you are correct then the inference behind your statement seems to be that the aged and ignorant aren't allowed to have an opinion ...a rather dangerous premise imo
Ok, so you'd rather the pig 'ignorant' votes of right wing ****t**ds carry the same weight as someone whose highly informed with knowledge of economics and social trends.
Carnelian posted:Baz posted:Carnelian posted:I'm sick and tired of hearing "The British people vote for" from self serving rightists like Davies.
The British (biased towards aged and ignorant) people voted by a small majority to leave the EU, and that doesn't imply that 'the British people' endorsed hard Brexit. How can it when the Brexit snake oil salesmen were telling the country that "Germany wants to sell us cars" and "Europe needs us more than we need it"?
Another sweeping geralisation .......not sure how you know the make up of those that voted out .....but if you are correct then the inference behind your statement seems to be that the aged and ignorant aren't allowed to have an opinion ...a rather dangerous premise imo
Ok, so you'd rather the pig 'ignorant' votes of right wing ****t**ds carry the same weight as someone whose highly informed with knowledge of economics and social trends.
I think they have as much right to their opinions as the * loony* lefty commies But seriously , who are we to decide who has the right to a vote/opinion, and who doesn't .....quite frankly that idea has very disturbing undertones to me ....it's certainly not democratic......far from it ......which is why I said it is a dangerous premise .
The Brexit vote can't be defined in the terms of left v right IMHYCO.
I know many Tory groups who are remainers and equally I move amongst left wingers who regard the EU as a neoliberal capitalist organisation (whatever that may mean!)
I've been to my hometown a lot recently and the default position is, "We weren't given all the information!" It's not palatable to many people but I do believe that it is the informed v the uninformed.
Experts were dismissed in favour of the man in the pub's opinion.
Carnelian posted:Baz posted:Carnelian posted:I'm sick and tired of hearing "The British people vote for" from self serving rightists like Davies.
The British (biased towards aged and ignorant) people voted by a small majority to leave the EU, and that doesn't imply that 'the British people' endorsed hard Brexit. How can it when the Brexit snake oil salesmen were telling the country that "Germany wants to sell us cars" and "Europe needs us more than we need it"?
Another sweeping geralisation .......not sure how you know the make up of those that voted out .....but if you are correct then the inference behind your statement seems to be that the aged and ignorant aren't allowed to have an opinion ...a rather dangerous premise imo
Ok, so you'd rather the pig 'ignorant' votes of right wing ****t**ds carry the same weight as someone whose highly informed with knowledge of economics and social trends.
What a seriously disturbing post, Carnelian.
Carnelianism: a voting system whereby the votes of the left wing intelligentsia carry more weight than those of the right wing, and those whose economic knowledge does not meet the criteria set by Carnelian. 
Thank heavens we live in a democracy!
At the risk of repeating myself I think the jury is out on the concept of democracy! I remember from years ago studying C19th Russian political history, a period in which they tried everything! One comes to the conclusion that referenda lead to a Crisis of Hegemony.
Of course as a PR gadjie Cameron wouldn't have known that and a Crisis of Hegemony is what the two main parties have.
Its all very well Mrs May and Mr Corbyn saying that we must unite but as Professor R. Fairclough of Wetherfield University has said, "I think that ship has sailed love!"
Garage Joe posted:At the risk of repeating myself I think the jury is out on the concept of democracy! I remember from years ago studying C19th Russian political history, a period in which they tried everything! One comes to the conclusion that referenda lead to a Crisis of Hegemony.
Of course as a PR gadjie Cameron wouldn't have known that and a Crisis of Hegemony is what the two main parties have.
Its all very well Mrs May and Mr Corbyn saying that we must unite but as Professor R. Fairclough of Wetherfield University has said, "I think that ship has sailed love!"
I've yet to see a better alternative, Joe.
My point is that referenda lead to a weak form of government.
I strongly disagree GJ. We don't have one every decade let alone every month! In this case it was badly needed as the poorer people of society have been the ones who have suffered the most.
Government is there to represent the wishes of the electorate not to rule 'because we know best' as so many of them seem determined to do nowadays. Not often does the ordinary person feel sufficiently motivated to stand up and demand to be heard but in this instance there was an extremely strong groundswell of opinion that 'enough was enough'.
Some might be in love with the whole concept of Europe and all it stands for but to very many of us its increasingly shrill voice handing out its diktats and refusing to account for the money that it wastes daily - on an unprecedented scale - was getting quite alarming. Along with that the ever-increasing 'red tape' mentality makes life very difficult for those at the bottom of the heap. My eldest grandson is quite good with his hands and would like to work in the building trade. Have you any idea how many hoops you have to jump through nowadays to even 'pick up a broom' on a building site? It would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic. There are loads of lads his age desperately trying to get a job and not much hope for any of them.
Garage Joe posted:At the risk of repeating myself I think the jury is out on the concept of democracy! I remember from years ago studying C19th Russian political history, a period in which they tried everything! One comes to the conclusion that referenda lead to a Crisis of Hegemony.
Of course as a PR gadjie Cameron wouldn't have known that and a Crisis of Hegemony is what the two main parties have.
Its all very well Mrs May and Mr Corbyn saying that we must unite but as Professor R. Fairclough of Wetherfield University has said, "I think that ship has sailed love!"
Garage Joe posted:The Brexit vote can't be defined in the terms of left v right IMHYCO.
I know many Tory groups who are remainers and equally I move amongst left wingers who regard the EU as a neoliberal capitalist organisation (whatever that may mean!)
I've been to my hometown a lot recently and the default position is, "We weren't given all the information!" It's not palatable to many people but I do believe that it is the informed v the uninformed.
Experts were dismissed in favour of the man in the pub's opinion.
I agree that our democracy is far from perfect GJ.....but If we believe in one person one vote , which I hope we all do, then we have to accept that it will include the man in the pub , the far right, the far left , and all shades of opinion and * intelligence * in between . What's the alternative ...a totalitarian state ruled by a cabal of the so called expert * informed* telling the rest of us what to do? There is always a bias in any information we glean ....whether we think it's * expert* or not usually depends on whether it gels with our existing opinions /preferences
Moreover , call me naive , but I do wonder whether people would be so disparaging of the opinion of *the man in the pub * if the vote had gone the other way ....or would he suddenly have been miraculously transformed into the the properly informed ?
velvet donkey posted:Carnelian posted:Baz posted:Carnelian posted:I'm sick and tired of hearing "The British people vote for" from self serving rightists like Davies.
The British (biased towards aged and ignorant) people voted by a small majority to leave the EU, and that doesn't imply that 'the British people' endorsed hard Brexit. How can it when the Brexit snake oil salesmen were telling the country that "Germany wants to sell us cars" and "Europe needs us more than we need it"?
Another sweeping geralisation .......not sure how you know the make up of those that voted out .....but if you are correct then the inference behind your statement seems to be that the aged and ignorant aren't allowed to have an opinion ...a rather dangerous premise imo
Ok, so you'd rather the pig 'ignorant' votes of right wing ****t**ds carry the same weight as someone whose highly informed with knowledge of economics and social trends.
And Rog called me a WUM.
No bad Carnelian... 7/10.
Yes, but with you, it stands for Warm-hearted, Upstanding and Marvellous.
velvet donkey posted:I'll see you on the other side Yogi
When the devil gives me a Nokia.
I lubs you - take that in
Right back atcha
Baz posted:Garage Joe posted:At the risk of repeating myself I think the jury is out on the concept of democracy! I remember from years ago studying C19th Russian political history, a period in which they tried everything! One comes to the conclusion that referenda lead to a Crisis of Hegemony.
Of course as a PR gadjie Cameron wouldn't have known that and a Crisis of Hegemony is what the two main parties have.
Its all very well Mrs May and Mr Corbyn saying that we must unite but as Professor R. Fairclough of Wetherfield University has said, "I think that ship has sailed love!"
Garage Joe posted:The Brexit vote can't be defined in the terms of left v right IMHYCO.
I know many Tory groups who are remainers and equally I move amongst left wingers who regard the EU as a neoliberal capitalist organisation (whatever that may mean!)
I've been to my hometown a lot recently and the default position is, "We weren't given all the information!" It's not palatable to many people but I do believe that it is the informed v the uninformed.
Experts were dismissed in favour of the man in the pub's opinion.
I agree that our democracy is far from perfect GJ.....but If we believe in one person one vote , which I hope we all do, then we have to accept that it will include the man in the pub , the far right, the far left , and all shades of opinion and * intelligence * in between . What's the alternative ...a totalitarian state ruled by a cabal of the so called expert * informed* telling the rest of us what to do? There is always a bias in any information we glean ....whether we think it's * expert* or not usually depends on whether it gels with our existing opinions /preferences
Moreover , call me naive , but I do wonder whether people would be so disparaging of the opinion of *the man in the pub * if the vote had gone the other way ....or would he suddenly have been miraculously transformed into the the properly informed ?
Whatever! I prefer the system whereby it's one man, one vote and thus we elect our representatives. They are then free to make decisions or take advice from experts.
When a person with such responsibility suggests that we have had sufficient of experts then we really are in the clarts.
Once again we invite the Brexiteers to give a credible reason for leaving, a way of leaving, and their ultimate goal.