very top of the tree! 

Damn this quoting thing.

Slinks.. if they money came from a scheme like Healthy Working Lives, they should sack the PR department for not saying so. 

BTW.. I do know there's been a lot of restructuring and changing since my experience (hell.. they even have computers now ) , and I know no job's for life any more, but when my bro swans in at 2 p.m. I have to question whether they've got completely to the root of the problem.     That said in the past year or so he has been working a bit longer, so things are obviously improving in some way.

the "holidays" are taken up with developing units, doing bits that there's no time to do during term time

I know that too... but there's absolutely NO fun in admitting that to my teacher friends..... 

Like MPs, for example?

My niece is a scab..the shame! She crossed the picket lines,she's not part of the pension scheme and states she can't afford to lose the money.I didn't berate her..much. I used to work in local goverment and always supported strikes.I have a pension,it's not a fortune,in fact it costs me benefits so basically I get stuffed for it.

Will Walden, Westminster News Editor

"Downing Street confirms the PM's press secretary Gabby Bertin is working on passport control at Heathrow Airport's Terminal 1. Ms Bertin, who is one of David Cameron's closest aides, is among a number of staff from no 10 working at Heathrow today."

Yet at the same time they'd have us believe that the turn-out is so wishy-washy that there is NO disruption.

Personally I'd like to see David Cameron emptying some bins.

For a lot of them (MrD included)...  its not so much a case of being worried about how much pension they'll get when they retire...   many of us have accepted that unless you have a pension pot over £100k your only hope of having enough money  to live rather than exist in our old age will come from assets (i.e. property)...  

The actual here & now problem is that wages are already low, we struggle...   we REALLY struggle...    if the proposed changes happen in three years time we will lose an additional £400 a month out of MrD's salary...    that is seriously scary.    If that happened now I am not sure what we would do....   I suppose we'd have to try & find evening work, additional jobs (haha... what jobs?).

(MrD works for the council btw...  Public Rights of Way Officer.    Not the worst paid job in the public sector...   not the best.   Grossly underpaid compared to roles that undertake similar duties & require similar skills in the private sector).

I take it you're not holding your breath though?

I'm not Fluffs, no... but i can dream..... 

my dream also includes the bin falling off the lorry and covering him in two week old food scraps btw...

Dream on Kaffy....I have no objections.

I still say him and Clegg are two wee boys playing at being adults.

Also shows that he has too many aides.

Maybe he could 'cut back'?

According to the Local Government pension proposals, the maximum total increase over the 3 years would be 5% for the highest earners (3.2% average, nothin for those earning not more than £15,100). That's 5% in total, not for each of the 3 years. So your figure of £400 a month would be what someone on £96,000 a year would have to pay so I would have thought it would be much less than £400.

Link to their leaflet

Five Reasons Public Service Workers Are Right To Strike - 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comm...rvice-workers-strike

ooooooooh!

Thank you for that...  twas obviously him that told me that figure...     and no..  he earns just over a quarter of the figure you quoted... 

I am now highly suspicious of MrD...    

If he thinks I am taking another bloody cut in housekeeping he can jog on!!!

*prepares domestic industrial action*

Seriously though El..  ta!      I am not sure whether he has miscalculated or he is scare mongering me...   

Increased pension contributions are a pay cut. Nothing more, nothing less. Add to that a two year pay freeze, and then two years of pay increases limited to 1% while inflation rages at 5%

I'm generally a hopelessly postitive person, I rarely worry about the day after next let alone 30 years into the future..... but even I am now very pissed off with it all.

I know everyone, public and private sectors, are having a hard time...and everyone needs to make sacrifices.... I get that... but I just DO not believe increased contributions/paying for longer/receiving less is neccessary all at once.

I would accept one or two.... but three is taking the piss.

AND on top of all this are the cuts to education budgets (cuts they claim they haven't made.....cos they have sneaky ways to spin it). We are three months into the school year and already we've been told there is no more money for ANYTHING. I've stopped photocopying and making resources.... the kids are working out of text books a lot more.....the one thing that OFSTED slam you for doing. And guess what? OFSTED are due to visit us between now and Christmas. Last week we were told there would be 2/3 redunancies made. Happy Christmas!!!

I work all the hours under the sun, at least 9 hours at school.....then at least two, very often more, each evening, all day Sunday........ and most of the time I do so willingly cos I want to do my job to the best of my ability.

But right now, my willingness has gone. I'm still doing it of course..... but it feels like very very hard work all of sudden.

Schools are successful when they are full of enthusiastic staff who can inspired that same enthusiasm in the pupils........ it's hard to be enthusiastic when the government are attacking at you from every angle.

I'm truly f**cked off with it all.

By the way.....today I stayed at home....got up at the usual time, and have worked solidly on UCAS applications and marking books. I'm still not done for the day. And WOOOO I'm losing a days pay for the privilege.

Roll on Christmas!      And do not even THINK about telling me off for mentioning Christmas before December. I ain't in the mood

Bloody hell. That was a bit long.

Sorry! I haven't spoken to anyone but my cat all day...... I needed that

There is a lot of scare mongering going on. Although I'm not in the public sector, my brother is - he like Mr D works for the council. He told me some time ago about what he had been hearing, so I found the Hutton report which is what the proposals are based on and showed him. Don't blame Mr D for the confusion, he is probably just saying what his union rep has said. My guess is that the extra pension contribution after the full increase after 3 years would be more like £50 a month.

I understand that any extra money being taken out of 'anyone's' income is a pain, and is going to mean that they have to cut back on certain things, and that they may struggle a little , and yes, the way the bankers have messed up, is a large part of the reason that we are in the mess we are in today.  

However, I am struggling to fathom why the public sector workers think they should be exempt from austerity measures.  EVERYone is having to suffer financially during this recession, and many people have had pensions badly affected; some people have even totally lost their pensions, and many have been asked to pay more money into their pension; so I don't see why the public service sector think they should be any different.

My husband hasn't had a payrise for 3 years, (except the cost of living one, which has to be given by law,) and although he had a pension for 6 years with a previous employee (which he paid 100% for himself,) he has no pension in the job he is in, and many other people I know are the same.  And the pension he had is worthless anyway, because he only had it for 6 years, and it will be worth less than £10 a week in 20 years when he retires...  And another pension he had for 10 years (in the 90s,) was with a company that went bust and is worthless...  

Also, many people don't have one because they simply can't afford one...  or they have had one with a company that messed up or went bust.  In fact, several friends and family members of ours have also had pensions with companies that have crashed, and the pensions are worthless.  And yes the public sector workers may have been 'promised' a certain amount and signed a contract for their pension and so on, but so did many other people... We have ALL been affected.

In addition, there are many millions of people during this recession who have lost 10s of 1000s in property and 100s of 1000s in businesses that have gone bust, and who have lost well paid jobs where they worked hard and trained for many years to get to the position they were in, so it's not just the public sector workers who are being affected....  Some people have had to go bankrupt and have been left with nothing.  I know several people who went bankrupt - last year - and their private pensions were taken from them from the receivers.  My pal who works for the C.A.B. said this happens to about 10 people a week at her C.A.B. alone.

Many people have been promised pensions over the years, and are not going to get what they expected, and have been asked to pay more into it...  I just don't know why the public sector workers think this global recession shouldn't affect them.  

One woman who was interviewed briefly on the BBC news about half an hour ago, said that in her opinion, the public sector employees don't know how lucky they actually are.   

Sparkles...    FWIW..    my husband has only been working in the public sector for the past couple of years, prior to that he worked in the private sector all his working life.   I could argue that he earned twice what he does now in the private sector.. but to be fair, these arguments have been going on for as long as I can remember & I can't actually be bothered.

what I wanted to say was..      all the time MrD worked in the private sector he didn't once have a pension where the employer contributed..    he actually didn't have a pension plan at all.    And he used to say then, and is still saying now that pension provision in the private sector needs sorting.  His issues with the current propositions for public sector pension reforms don't change that.

Hi Ditty.

I get what you're saying, and I do get that the strikers are doing this for a reason, and that they're going to struggle financially and everything, but I just don't get why they think they shouldn't be affected by the global recession..because everyone is being affected ... I do have a bit of sympathy, because they are suffering financially, but don't they realise that it's affecting the whole world?  And many are being affected much worse than them..

Also me and my hubby have never had an employer who has contributed towards our pension either..  The only people I know who have had that luxury are public sector workers.. Maybe there are some private sector employers who did it/do it, but I have never known any personally.  

generally I don't support striking.   I am the person that usually screams "sack them then" at the telly when there is industrial action going on...   (especially when it is one kicking back against structural reform).

Teachers strikes are something I feel very very strongly about..    as I was born in 1970..    meaning that during the teachers strikes of the 1980's I was in my O'Level years...   it had a profound impact on our education..      we had very little education over the two years we needed it most.

Todays strike is the first strike I have wholeheartedly ever supported.      Like Ducks says...  1 or 2 changes perhaps..   but hammering them from all sides...  no.    More than that, (& I know it sounds petty)..   but hearing the government demonising public sector workers, trying to drum up as much public distain for them as possible..  then today, Cameron sneering that the impact of the strikes was a damp squib...etc etc..    WTH!!    just how much more offensive can he be?

Also..   & despite me hearing a few mums on the radio today complaining that there was very little notice of todays action..    there was plenty of notice.   And...   it was co-ordinated so that public sector workers across all professions did it on the same day..     Emergency service cover was in place..     It feels like it was done in such a way that minimised the suffering on the general public whilst making a stand against the government.   Unlike some strikes where they calculate how to maximise the suffering of the general public to use this to get to the government.

If however, teachers strikes become more regular...   if it comes anywhere near like it was in the 80's I will fight them all the way.     No-one with such little regard for their students futures should be in the teaching profession.    

I think the fact that the headteachers union was out in support of today speaks volumes..  I may be wrong, but I don't think they ever went on strike in the 80's.

My posts are a bit long too...     especially the last one... 

i don't have the cat excuse..   I haven't spoken to her yet today...     I have spoke to humans though (well Haze & MrD )  and still my waffle broke out 

(oh god!    Darlo has a lot to answer for..      I got a right dodgy mental image when I read back the last bit of that sentence)

You are correct Head Teachers have never been on strike...That for me, speaks volumes..

Oh yes, I'm not totally and utterly against them protesting Ditty, and as I said, I do feel some sympathy because it's hugely unfair what is happening; I just think that some - not all but some - public sector workers think the country owes them a living, and appear to think that they should be exempt from the effects of the global recession.  

It's like 'everyone is suffering and having to pull in their belts; why do you think you should be any different?.' It's a bit annoying too, because not all workers can strike with such an impact as it has when the public sector workers go on strike.  They have the power of huge unions behind them: not everyone has the benefit of that.

Whichever government spin doctor came up with the idea of labelling the latest pensions offer "generous" and strikers "irresponsible" failed to think through how badly this would play with women. Or perhaps the ministers they advise still don't get who the great majority of the teachers, healthcare workers and civil servants walking out really are.

Public service workers  contribute positively to this society– and two-thirds of them are women.

These workers make up the core of what has become known as the "squeezed middle". Their wages have been stagnating for years and, since the government imposed a pay freeze, living standards have fallen sharply. The traditional public service promise – modest wages in exchange for some security in old age – has been broken. By unilaterally switching the indexation from RPI to CPI, the government has already stripped up to 20% off the value of pensions at a stroke.

Few government ministers, if any, have personal experience of bringing up a family on an average salary, let alone low pay. But for many of those living week-to-week on a tight budget and with precious few savings in the bank, a 3% increase in contributions would mean they have no choice but to opt out of the pension scheme altogether.

The government argues that the lowest paid will be protected from having to pay more – but not from the indexation switch and not from the requirement to work longer. And there are 750,000 part-time workers – again, the overwhelming majority women – whose earnings fall below the £15,000 threshold but whose full-time equivalent earnings take them above, and so will not qualify.

The implication that women work for pin money and can manage on a worse pension, presumably by relying on husbands, riles. But even more galling for women is that few government ministers seem to even appreciate the value of the work we do.

I don't understand where the idea comes from that public sector workers think they should be exempt from the effects of a global recession. I don't think there's a single worker in either sector who believes that.

EVERYONE has been affected by the global recession. It's not just pension changes that affect income. Pay has been frozen across BOTH sectors. There have been redunancies across BOTH sectors. Cost cutting across BOTH sectors. Everyone is dealing with increased inflation....petrol prices, fuel prices, food prices. We're ALL affected. Public and private sectors.

This shouldn't be a "them and us" situation.

There seem to be two claims regarding the pension situation:

Either.....increased pension contributions will go into the "deficit" pot....not into a "pension plan" (so to speak). Some may say good..... we all should make sacrifices to stabilise the economy. But if it's true that this is designed to get the country out of a hole. should only the public sector workers contribute to this pot in this specific way? And when the country is economically stable again..... are the contributions going to go down? Of course not.

Or............ the changes are needed to pay for pensions in the future. Ifthat is the truth....they've failed so far to prove ALL THREE changes are needed, yet are unwilling to compromise with the unions. And it IS about compromise. No one expects there to be no change.

I don't know which version is closest to the real truth, I'm not an economist..... and tthat's he saddest thing about this whole situation; we don't have a government that we can trust to tell us the whole truth.

I honestly... hand on heart...  do not think the vast majority expect to be exempt from the recession & the cuts everyone is facing..      I worked for 10 years in the NHS and the wages were horrendous...    it does depend what job you do as to how bad they are... but there are some grossly underpaid professions.  (ODPs, Healthcare Scientists, Admin & Clerical, I could go on)

 My dad (whose lifelong career was in selling Life Insurance & Pensions haha)  used to say "the pension plan compensates for the wages a bit, its not quite as bad as it looks"        However, that was cos I had an index linked final salary pension plan..    I was one of the last people in our trust to get the Index linked bit..    and I think the final salary bit has either gone or is being phased out. 

For me..    & for many i worked with it was the only good thing about our employment terms & conditions.  

The less slack you have in your monthly budget the harder inflation, rocketing fuel & food costs etc hit you..      there is only so much you can cut back on.

There is some cultural stuff that could be addressed in the public sector..   I'm the first to accept that..   some easy street perks & traditions (I can't actually think of any I personally came across in the areas of the NHS I worked in..    there are quite a few that MrD tells me about at his workplace though )  but wages are not one of them.

I've heard a lot of terminology & phrasing of words on the telly aimed at giving the impression that public sector workers feel they shouldn't be subject to the hardships facing the rest of the country..      but I don't think we should be looking at it as a them & us situation... not yet.    

It feels like we're in a playground & following a big argument, one kid (Cameron), desperate not to come out as being in the wrong is going around trying to get the rest of the school on their side ready to gang up on the other kid 

I swear to god..     I hadn't read ducky's post before I posted mine 

there may be five mins difference in posting time...   but mine took some writing & I have fed the dog & been to the loo midway through typing it

Try this calculator Ditty :http://pensionsjustice.org.uk/for-reps-activists/pensions-changes-calculator/

I think you're missing the point sparkles...or part of it. 5 years ago a new pension deal was struck with the government. This was a 'workable pension for the future' and although the governing parties are different today they are wanting to overturn and renege on that legally agreed deal. Also a lot of your argument comes across as 'because some of us have ended up with bad or non existant pensions, the rest of us should too.'

Why?

Oooh.. Ta Soops... 

*goes ferreting around in MrDs secret area for a payslip*

TBH I suspect he's gonna opt out of the works pension anyway..     given his late start in the pensions game I don't think its actually worth it for him to pay in...     My mate is a financial paraplanner...   she's gonna find all my old pensions and do me a summary of what I have (who knew they were still about somewhere..   I thought the pension from the 5 years I worked at BT in the early 90's would have just been lost in the ether...   I think I have others floating about too).

I'm beginning to wonder if we might just be better off changing to a flexible mortgage & instead of paying into a pension plan...    paying more off the mortgage..  

my paraplanner mate is not right optimistic about pensions...   she was a right ray of sunshine today..    painted a delightful picture of how we will all be living the last years of our lives 

I don't think we do Sparkles, I for one expect some kind of a hit and we public sector employees  have also suffered already in similar ways to the ones you have described. On top of that we are getting this 'triple whammy'

What I don't get is why this issue, for some, almost becomes a private v public sector issue, the attitude that we want you lot to suffer as much, if not more than some of those worst hit in the private sector

"and I think the final salary bit has either gone or is being phased out."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last I saw it had changed to 'the average of the best three years from the last ten'

But I think it might now just be 'the average of the last three'

I'm pissed off that my husband should be home sitting next to me now from a trip to the states but because of all the 'hype' of 12 hour delays at Heathrow, he rebooked a flight for tomorrow. So another night alone . Thou saying that the dog has enjoyed 'his' side of the bed .. haha... Thou I do agree that they should strike.... Just not today of all days !!! 

I won't be quote tastic Senora, but

TY Supes

Another part of the argument from some seems to think that Public Sector workers are a breed apart from 'The Taxpayer'.

Forgive my ignorance, but are we not ALL taxpayers?

Checks payslip...., I pay tax 

Including, might I add, so benefits can be paid to those who need them, (never, thankfully, have had to claim any myself,) for children to be educated, (wasn't able, unfortunately to have any myself,) etc. etc. etc. Do I mind any of that? NO absolutely not AT ALL. Do I mind that, by some, I'm being portrayed to be some greedy, self-serving, work-shy, lazy bugga who thinks that the country owes me a job/ living? Well yes, I bloody well do