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A BBC story about an unexplained warming of the oceans in the 1970s:

Oceans divide over 1970s warming

Iceberg Fresh water from ice melt is raised as a possible cause of the changes

The surfaces of the oceans went through a short period of rapid temperature change 40 years ago, scientists have found - but the cause is unknown.

Top layers of Northern Hemisphere water cooled by about 0.3C; the south saw roughly the same degree of warming.

Writing in the journal Nature, the team suggests that air pollution cannot be responsible for the changes, as has been suggested for mid-century cooling.

They do not suggest a cause. It is not clear what could link all the oceans.

However, events called Great Salinity Anomalies have been recorded in the last few decades in the North Atlantic Ocean - including one around 1970.

The 1970s global temperature record shows a period where the Earth's surface cooled in the Northern Hemisphere, while the Southern Hemisphere saw warming.

It has been suggested that this difference could be accounted for by greater production of aerosols - tiny dust and soot particles - in the north, where the vast majority of the world's industry is found.

Aerosols cool the planet's surface by reflecting solar radiation back into space.

But the suddenness of the changes seen in the new research, led by Dave Thompson from Colorado State Univereity in Fort Collins, US, suggests that the explanation could lie elsewhere, as aerosols would be expected to take effect more gradually.

"The results suggest that something other than aerosols was the primary driver in the differences in temperatures between the two hemispheres in the mid-20th Century," Professor Thompson told BBC News.

"We can't rule them out - they could be of absolutely fundamental importance - the point is the abruptness in the observed difference time series is hard to reconcile with what you'd expect aerosol loadings to do."

Unclear waters

The causes of the Great Salinity Anomalies (GSAs) are not clear; and they may not all have the same cause, or progress in the same pattern.

In the 1970s event, fresh water appears to have entered the North Atlantic and lowered the salinity of water in the region.

In large enough quantities, this freshening can slow the Atlantic portion of the global pattern of currents known as the thermohaline circulation - in popular parlance, "turning off the Gulf Stream", as in the movie The Day After Tomorrow.

Sampling ocean Data comes from direct observatons made on ships

The temperature shifts found by Professor Thompson's team may have been fairly fast, taking place over just five years, but they were glacial compared to the speed of Hollywood imagination, which had New York ice-bound within a day.

If the 1970s GSA were the root cause of these rapid changes, there has to be another step in the chain that explains how the effects penetrated to other oceans, because the Northern Pacfiic also cooled.

In addition, later GSAs do not appear to have co-incided with global changes in ocean heat distribution.

Nevertheless, some observers, such as Mark Maslin, director of the Environment Institute at University College London, UK, are convinced.

"This early 1970s cooling, instead of being due to increased sulphate aerosols or decadal cycles in ocean circulation, was probably caused by the rapid freshening of the North Atlantic during the GSA," he said.

"This paper is important in that it shows how sensitive the climate of the Northern Hemisphere is to the salinity balance in the North Atlantic Ocean, providing a stark warning of what may happen in the future with larger releases of freshwater into the North Atlantic."

Old records

The records on which this paper rests come from readings taken on board ships as they traversed the oceans.

As such, the raw data has been around and available for years. So in one sense, it is surprising that the findings have not been brought to light before.

"It's certainly not the first time that people have noticed decadal variability in the sea surface temperatures, but I think the abruptness of the changes has been under-appreciated," said Dave Thompson.

"That's because there's often smoothing done on the data; you may draw out the signal of decadal variability that way, but by smoothing you lose information about more rapid, short-term changes."

Michael Schlesinger from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign is one of the scientists who first identified a major ocean temperature cycle on decadal scales - the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation - but he remains uncovinced about the value of the new research.

"I can't get excited about this - it seems like something of a tempest in a teacup," he told BBC News.

"You have a slight cooling in one hemisphere and a slight warming in the other, and you subtract one from the other and find something - but are we going to do this for every bump and jump on the datasets?

"I'm not sure it tells us a lot."

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Muf (Mr. Diver?), this 'proposition' is more complex than it 'looks to be' and not only includes 'evaporation rates' between 'saline' and 'pure' water surface interactions that cools 'surface water' for a given scenario, it involves the 'humidity and "temperature difference"' between the 'air' (gasses) and water/air immediately above/between the surfaces of these mediums for the gasses and water to 'interchange any energy' in question.

'Pure water' (or low saline inclusion) gives a 'lower density' for the 'body/surface region' of 'any "sea, or lake" (ignoring gravitational anomalies [other than the 'displacement rule'])' then this 'scenario' can only be 'disclosed/understood' by the day by day, hour by hour, 'collation and use' of data.

  It would seem  to me that the, 'lowest density' of the 'water body' is, "at the surface of the planet"' and' not disclosed' at 'when/where' we were told !

Kindest regards, Ray Dart (AKA, suricat).

S

The basic formulae that this phenomenon is derived from relies upon a 'conjunction' of both 'Charles's Law' and 'Boyle's Law' (P.V.T). However, this formula doesn't account for any changes for either the 'gasses involved', or any 'change in salinity' at the 'interface' between 'atmosphere/sea surface' in an 'open environment'. Thus, the formulation of 'P.Vnr.T' was employed to account for changes in the 'atmospheric mix' at the 'interface', but this doesn't account for the 'sea surface' change of 'salinity' that follows the 'evaporation of water' and the 'concentration of salts' there due to 'the evaporation process'.

If it helps, on the 'sea/lake' side of the 'interface'. As 'water' evaporates the 'interface' becomes more 'saline' on the 'water' side of the equation. Thus, its harder for water to 'evaporate' into the 'atmosphere'. Moreover, because the water in contact with the 'interface' is now more 'saline' than the 'water below' and is also 'heavier', 'Archimedes Principle' should be applied to 'this part' of the 'equation'. Its a 'headache'!

Kind regards, Ray Dart (AKA suricat).

S
@suricat posted:

"This was posted in El Loros thread but thought it needed an airing here...come back SoM "

I doubt that 'Son of Moulder' will respond here Muf, but it would be nice if they did.

Best regards, Ray Dart (suricat).

In case you ever wonder why I stopped doing my Bird Sanctuary thread, it was because the BBC published guidelines about their news articles meaning that one's not supposed to copy and paste their articles elsewhere without going to the trouble of getting permission from them (section on reusing content from a BBC website):
https://www.bbc.co.uk/usingthe...tentfromabbcwebsite?

El Loro
@El Loro posted:

In case you ever wonder why I stopped doing my Bird Sanctuary thread, it was because the BBC published guidelines about their news articles meaning that one's not supposed to copy and paste their articles elsewhere without going to the trouble of getting permission from them (section on reusing content from a BBC website):
https://www.bbc.co.uk/usingthe...tentfromabbcwebsite?

The BBC is very protective of its/their funding. If you live in the UK and pay for your TV Licence, they tend to be more forgiving for 'local publication', but are reluctant to permit 'Internet Publication' because this is a 'global network' AFAIK.

Have you considered a 'copy and paste' from/with the 'R.S.P.B.'? This is a 'friendly society' supported by 'donations' and has a 'global network' that may well cover a subject of your interest. However, it's a body that covers both 'animal' and 'plant' subjects (it isn't restricted to 'just birds', it also includes 'other animals').

Here's a thread I opened with them in their 'tea room' when I had a problem with the nesting of Herring Gulls.

https://community.rspb.org.uk/...-of-the-herring-gull

You should be able to 'peruse' the site from here/there.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards, Ray Dart (AKA suricat).

S
@Ensign Muf posted:
This was posted in El Loros thread but thought it needed an airing here...come back SoM

IMHO Muf, the lowering of 'surface salinity' can only 'accelerate' the 'evaporation rate', thus, 'increase the hydrological activity' of the atmosphere at 'tropospheric' altitudes. I.O.W., accelerate 'cooling' of the 'worlds waters/surface' into the 'tropopause'!

Kind regards, Ray Dart (AKA suricat).

S

Thanks for mentioning the R.S.P.B. suricat

I used to have a work colleague who gave me the nickname El Loro and I decided to use that here. I don't know that he realised that it was the Spanish for The Parrot. Hence my avatar picture. I set up the Bird Sanctuary during the time that Big Brother was on. I had zero interest in that so started my thread as something to do on the forum, the title being a little joke

El Loro
@suricat posted:

IMHO Muf, the lowering of 'surface salinity' can only 'accelerate' the 'evaporation rate', thus, 'increase the hydrological activity' of the atmosphere at 'tropospheric' altitudes. I.O.W., accelerate 'cooling' of the 'worlds waters/surface' into the 'tropopause'!

Kind regards, Ray Dart (AKA suricat).

I'd like to add to this.

When 'WV' (Water Vapour) is taken as a 'separate gas' within the 'atmosphere', its 'density' is '~3 fifths' of a mixture of 'all other' components of the 'atmospheric mix'. 'Archimedes Principle' again (I believe I misspelled this earlier [thanks to my 'spell checker']) and is the reason why 'clouds' usually become evident (as WV 'condenses') at altitude within the Troposphere, due the 'the adiabatic lapse rate'.

Moreover, WV is a 'greenhouse gas' that exerts more 'radiative BACK forcing' than 'CO2' (Carbon Dioxide) when/where it is 'present in the troposphere'. However, increased evaporation rates causes more WV to be present within the atmosphere which increases 'back radiation' to 'warm our planet', but the 'lifetime' of WV is expected to average ~14 days before it's 'rained out'! So for what period do we expect WV to exist as 'a vapour', for what period do we expect 'H2O' (water) to exist as 'cloud' (which exhibits 'mie scattering' and IR absorption from 'insolation' (incoming solar radiation)? The 'jury',it seems, is still 'out'.

IMHO, the 'bucket brigade' that took 'sea surface temperatures' at the 'sea surface' were 'unscientific' in their method. They just 'dumped the bucket' into the water at 'whatever depth' and may well have an 'undesignated time (on deck)' for the 'reading of the temperature' following the 'retrieval of the sample' (we're talking mostly about 'armed forces' here).

Kind regards, Ray Dart (AKA suricat)

S
@El Loro posted:

Thanks for mentioning the R.S.P.B. suricat

I used to have a work colleague who gave me the nickname El Loro and I decided to use that here. I don't know that he realised that it was the Spanish for The Parrot. Hence my avatar picture. I set up the Bird Sanctuary during the time that Big Brother was on. I had zero interest in that so started my thread as something to do on the forum, the title being a little joke

The R.S.P.B., no problem! Only happy to try to help.

T.B.H., and I don't mean to be derogatory, but 'the parrot' isn't a 'comfortable 'signature' (sig)' to my way of thinking. My 'sig' of 'suricat' (a 'long tailed meerkat') was given to me by an old acquaintance (girlfriend) that lived in the south of Belgium (Walloon Region) during the 'trauma' of my divorce when I questioned the reason of/for my existence.

Just 'go with the flow'.

However, 'El Loro' seems more 'macho' to the 'English speaking public', so perhaps you would benefit by changing your 'avatar' to a 'raging bull'? IMHO, this would be more 'fitting' for a 'moderator'. Just saying.

BTW, thanks for not stating my 'sig' with a 'capital letter'. It doesn't have one!

Kindest regards, Ray Dart (AKA suricat).

S

I used to have a signature for posts here which said "The parrot has spoken" but I got rid of it years ago as I didn't feel comfortable. My avatar picture was provided to me by a friend of mine.
I could become El Toro (= the bull) but my moderator role is a voluntary one as a community moderator rather than as someone who is going to go round in a rage

I had realised that it was more likely that suricat was connected with meerkats rather than with cats though I think there are some people who have named their cat Suricat

El Loro

Sadly, suricat, this forum is a lot less active than it used to be with many members no longer or rarely posting. For instance Ensign Muf hasn't been on since August 2021. I have just seen that you posted in some other threads in the Science section but no-one else did. That's partially because of fewer visitors and partially because those who do tend to look at the Big Brother section.

I noticed that some months ago you asked about how to create a thread. To do that, go the the forum you want to make the thread such as "Science and Tech Shows" Towards the top right look for an reddish/orangish button with Post in it. Of the options "What would you like to post" select Topic. Takes you to a Create Topic screen. Once you've composed the topic Publish button at the end to complete it.  The Title Image is generally not used here, if you want to know more about it have a look at:
https://www.gagajoyjoy.com/top...-image-a-new-feature

There is a way of letting another member know that you've referred to them and that is to do a notification. Type @ (wait for a second for that to become @ then start typing their member name and wait for the possible names to select. When you seen their name click on it. There's no space between the @ and their name. Type a space after their name and continue with your text. If their settings are set to receive notifications they should then get notified. Of course, it they're not set then they won't get notified.
@suricat as you can see your name appears as a hyperlink

https://www.gagajoyjoy.com/account/follows
Inluence notifications near the end  - When someone mentions you (you can see your own settings, no-one else can)

El Loro
@El Loro posted:

Sadly, suricat, this forum is a lot less active than it used to be with many members no longer or rarely posting. For instance Ensign Muf hasn't been on since August 2021. I have just seen that you posted in some other threads in the Science section but no-one else did. That's partially because of fewer visitors and partially because those who do tend to look at the Big Brother section.

I noticed that some months ago you asked about how to create a thread. To do that, go the the forum you want to make the thread such as "Science and Tech Shows" Towards the top right look for an reddish/orangish button with Post in it. Of the options "What would you like to post" select Topic. Takes you to a Create Topic screen. Once you've composed the topic Publish button at the end to complete it.  The Title Image is generally not used here, if you want to know more about it have a look at:
https://www.gagajoyjoy.com/top...-image-a-new-feature

There is a way of letting another member know that you've referred to them and that is to do a notification. Type @ (wait for a second for that to become @ then start typing their member name and wait for the possible names to select. When you seen their name click on it. There's no space between the @ and their name. Type a space after their name and continue with your text. If their settings are set to receive notifications they should then get notified. Of course, it they're not set then they won't get notified.
@suricat as you can see your name appears as a hyperlink

https://www.gagajoyjoy.com/account/follows
Inluence notifications near the end  - When someone mentions you (you can see your own settings, no-one else can)

I recognise 'Ensign Muf' as 'mufcdiver' (Manchester United Football Club "Diver")! Am I wrong?

This guy helped me with many sticky situations on the 'channel 4 "suse" (now closed) website'. Their input is both valid and important and I hope that they re-regeon any discussion soon.

I "comment" on threads here and don't wish to 'open a thread' on 'any particular subject'.

I have 'no interest' in opening the 'subterfuge' of a 'silent' contact between us!

Best regards, Ray Dart (AKA suricat).

S

I've posted a new 'science' thread, without response. You are correct in your assumption that this 'collective' (site) is only interested in 'social media'!

My question is, 'why did this site claim to "provide" an alternative for users of the 'Chanel 4 "eve" website' as the site 'per se' was "shutting down"?

All/many 'links' have been 'lost', together with their 'postings' (the '404' [page unknown] proliferates here) and indicates that the point of view that this site has bias against any 'climate discussion'.

suricat.

S

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