He strikes me as someone totally screwed up.  One remembers the light entertainers Cheech and Chong and their term, "I used to be hung up on drugs, now I'm hung up on Jebus!"

People who are fanatical and rigid in their views should be given no heed.

Though I did like him as a housemate,I just didn't take him or his views seriously.

I have too Brisket, but thankfully I think this is becoming less commonplace than it did a few years ago. One of my parents best friends in the 80's was a middle aged gay man. He was wonderful, warm, funny, a complete bon viveur. He had married in the 60's because 'that's what you did'. It made him very unhappy and he used to talk about how much he hated his wife but I always felt most sorry for his her. She hadn't known he was gay and ended up in a loveless marriage, with no chance of a sex life or children. I also knew a younger couple in the 90's. I suspected he was gay, she was very naive and had no idea. He was a Catholic from a small village in Ireland but he was living and working in England. She was obviously being used as his 'cover'. Thankfully he came clean before they were married. He came out over here and started to enjoy the freedom of his life. She felt publicly humiliated and became quite bitter and untrusting with men and as far as I know is still single 15 years on. My best friend is a gay man. He didn't come out at 28 and I understand how difficult it must have been for him to do that, but he maintains that these days most gay men would rather opt for bachelorhood than fake 'Lavender Love'.


There will always be religious fundamentalists and uber conservatives whose social tolerance is reflected by their limited understanding of all things which are different to them. When these people discuss things as being normal/abnormal and dictate what society needs and wants, what they really mean is I am normal therefore what I need and want is what everyone needs and wants.

Well, it's celibacy or gayness for me and always has been.  No element of choice and zero sexual interest in women.  I didn't choose to be gay any more than most men choose to be straight, and I was aware of my sexuality aged about 8 or 9 I think.

Apparently, according to the latest British Social Attitudes Survey, about 1 in 3 think same sex sexual relationships are "always or mostly" wrong down from 2 in 3 from 1983.  Those 1 in 3 can kiss my hairy arse. 

QotHTs.  Thanks for your informative and thoughtful response.
It caused me think of the terrible torment that some people must feel at these crucial moments in their lives.
There are some, of course who find themselves in denial. That seems like a road to nowhere.
I appreciate your comprehensive post.

Daniel's reference to attitudes causes me to consider how frustratingly slow change can seem to be. We have seen some wonderul (in my opinion) changes in recent decades. But living through these times it can seem as if nothing changes.

But if we step and back and take an overall longer term view, we can see that we have lived through some quite remarkable changes.

We have indeed, and I'm genuinely thankful for that. Nobody should have to live a lie and pretend to be something that they are not in order to conform with societal 'norms'. I remember when I met by best friend at college and he told me he was gay. I remember thinking 'yes I know', it didn't even occur to me that he wasn't gay to be honest. I also remember thinking what a strange thing it is to feel as though you have to announce your sexuality . I would never dream of feeling as though I ought to let people know I'm straight. I hate it when people talk about my friend as my 'gay friend' as though that's the most comprehensive way to describe him. I just don't see that as the most important or interesting thing about him. I hope that in time, once the 1 in 3 that Dan talked about finally see the light, that we can all move on even further and just get over the fact that we are all different.

Hi Daniel One of my best friends is a gay man, he has also always been aware that he is gay, though he did experiment with one or two girls in his teens TBH, he only did that because he thought that was what was expected of him.

He told me that he has never doubted his sexuality, ever, and deep down his elderly parents always knew too....he eventually told his parents the truth in his late teens and they were actually relieved that he had finally been true to himself, he was genuinely shocked at how well they had taken it (given that they are elderly and devout Catholics), and relieved that he could finally start to live his life without the secrecy!!!! 

I find it very sad that people have such distorted views about gay relationships, my Friend and his fella are the perfect couple complete opposites but somehow seem to work perfectly together...they absolutely love each other and I guess that is all anybody ultimately wants...

I had never imagined Danjay to have a hairy arse.  It's strange the way we imagine everyone to be. Isn't it though but?

I couldn't agree more DID..... it's loving and committing to someone that is the most important thing IMO.. Whether that person is the same sex, or the opposite sex should make no difference at all in my book.

I'm interested in what they might mean by 'wrong'.  Obviously, a fair chunk of those will be religious and 'wrong' will mean 'sinful'.  The rest probably mean 'unnatural', which is always a bit tricky philosophically.  I don't mind the sinful thing; I'm an atheist and religious morals are therefore, by definition, incorrect so we're even there.  I mind the 'unnatural' thing, although I understand it.

On the same basis, 45% think it makes "no difference" whether co-habiting parents are married or not, up from 38% in 1983.  So, over half probably think there's a problem there of some sort or another.  I wonder how many of those have religious objections?  Or is it a worry that other people's attitudes might make a difference?

Now I've hijacked the thread with the BSA, here's an interesting snippet: "Fewer people think the government should redistribute income to the less well-off — 38%, down from 51% in 1994, while just 39% support increased taxation and spending on health and education, down from 62% in 1997 and the lowest level since 1984." quoted from India Knight of The Times.  That first bit is quite shocking!  I think, anyway.

My daughters girlfriends had a horrid time with her parents and grandmother, to the point she left home and moved here. Sadly there are still small minded bigots, but now I have three daughters and an adopted one  Her mother was even trying to buy her a wedding dress because she was sure getting her married off would 'SORT IT OUT'!!! The parents are idiots, their loss and our gain!  She's a lovely girl and they should be proud of her, the bigoted trio may realise one day what they have lost.

I have a good friend who is gay too and he did experiment a little with girls as a teenager as it was "expected" sad really. Glad most people are more tolerant nowadays. It must have been awful to live a sham life not that many years ago....

It's bizarre isn't it? One of my dearest friends grew up as the family bad boy while his brother went to Cambridge, became a doctor, married, one son and though they always got on A was always aware his brother was the golden boy - it was a tough act to follow. Then about 8 years ago his brother walked out, moved in with his BF and has never looked back. I saw him on Saturday and he and his OH are as happy as ever. But his wife and his son have had no end of counselling and his son now treats his father with borderline contempt - not because he is gay but because he deceived everyone. His ex-wife is completely distrustful of any new relationship (mind you that goes for me too, but for VERY different reasons - although lies and deceit are the root of both).

I can see why R tried to be "normal". Their parents are very straight-laced and as a young man in the late 70's it must have been impossible to even consider telling his authoritarian father he was gay. It was easier to pretend but so sad he had to ruin other peoples lives to do so. Ironically, his parents were fantastic about the whole thing and get on with his OH really well. But 25 years ago it would have been very different I think.

I was listening to an interview on Radio 4 last week with Michael Cashman and Kelvin McKenzie about how attitudes have changed and KMc admitted some of the headlines he ran as an editor now made him cringe - or even laugh at how pathetic they were.

How do they manage to produce a kid in these situations?  I simply couldn't get it up!  It'd be like expecting a heterosexual man to have penetrative sex with another man.

There have been  enlightning and considered responses in this thread, for which I thank the posters.
I think it is so sad that some gay people get married not because they truly want to, or that it has been carefully considered or that their free will tells them to do so, but rather because they felt they "should" or were "expected" to, or even more surprisingly "as a cure." This is not done in isolation; others are affected.
I have much empathy for such people, and feel unhappy for their situation.
Oh were it not so.

Claiming to be bi when actually gay seems to be a common delusion - or escape route. It always strikes me as sad the amount of folk that have sacrificed happiness because of peer pressure and the need to conform to the so-called 'norms' of our society.

I'm so glad that most gay people feel able to be open and up front about their sexuality in this day and age. My son is 27 ..............from a very early age I always thought he was gay ...................he had a relationship with his best friend 'girl' when he was 17/18 ...........she was lovely and completely gorgeous. I t all ended in tears when he eventually came out.
Even in these enlightened times I think folk feel that they have to at least try and conform ..........................my son has been openly gay for ten years now and is in a very stable and happy relationship. All those omportant in his life and who love him accept it as it is .......there is no problem. People with ultra/uber religious beliefs who can't accept it or think it's wrong are just sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo out of touch. We cannot help the way we feel - we are all human and nature works in different ways on every one of us. Stephen Baldwin (and his ilk) are ignorant and complete and utter arses IMO. I actually feel a bit sorry for them in that they cannot accept a substantial percentage of the population through their own ignorance.

One of the things that's really stuck with me when my friend and I have talked about sexuality is when he told me that he has been propositioned many times by 'straight' men who basically wanted 'to see what it was like'. He said it happened loads of times when he was out on nights out with work colleagues. He used to work for a large phone network and only two men there were openly gay. The two were given nicknames by the laddish element who worked there, my friend was known as 'rough puff', a nickname he was quite proud of considering the other gay lad was known as 'powder puff'. When he was younger he would often go with these men as they were attractive to him. As he got older though he said he just got fed up of being regarded as an experiment and wanted something more. These men he went with regarded themselves as straight, and aparently most were married or in relationships with women at the time. I'm sure my friend isn't the only gay man to have experiences like this and it makes me wonder how many men out there have actually experimented with their sexuality. My friend has always maintained that these men really were straight but were just curious to find out, but as Danjay says, surely you can't 'perform' unless you are actually experiencing some degree of sexual arousal.

Quite a lot I would say QotHTs.

Thanks for another thoughtful and well-tempered post about a subject with many facets.

I have come to hold the view that our sexuality cannot be neatly put into compartments - straight, bi and gay. I see it as a whole spectrum. Much more flexible than 3 categories. I don't think this is a wild guess on my part; it is based on a certain knowledge, experience, questioning, research (for want of a better name) but mainly life experience.

The idea that there are 3 types of sexual orientation, all packed neatly in 3 little boxes, is, I believe, not only wrong but a cause of much emotional turmoil and upheaval. It is this sort of categorising that traps people into the expectations of their peers and often families.

Whereas I believe our sexuality is spread across one broad spectrum. I also believe that our place on that spectrum changes at different points in our lives.

What a lovely thread, I've got nothing to add to the great comments already posted.

Lordy, when I was in my mid-20s I was quietly hit on by quite a few of my friends and their friends.  Some of whom I did indeed do stuff with as one-offs and who now have wives.  There's one I spent nearly 18 months with and is now married.  Luckily, I've lost touch and I've never met his wife.  Presumably, some of those had a passing attraction and that last one is out and out bisexual.

Interesting thread, I've enjoyed reading it.

So often, when facing emotional and difficult personal situations, we feel so much alone.
Some of the examples given in this thread, show the "secret" (and what to do about it) have to be faced alone. It is entirely an inner-self matter. Not always of course, but I suspect mostly.
Not only are these inner driving forces tricky and strong, but handling them is invariably a very lonely job. I have utmost sympathy for any young man who feels alone - perhaps even feels no one else has ever felt like this. A massive emotional issue and yet totally isolated.
(This thread has given examples of males, but it applies to females too of course.)
It is not like popping into a Citizens Advice Bureu. You are stuck with your own thoughts and feelings which can be intense and very, very scary.

The thing about "straight" men showing interest in other men - much of it passes as laddishness, banter, or "just messing around". But much of it is more than that. Of course it has not got to be seen so! Occasionally - given certain conditions - it does take on a serious tone.

But this post was to stress the acute loneliness felt by so many people experiencing the agony of "what do I do about this gay thing?"