Well it was no bloody secret was it! It was just covered up by the church and the Irish State..shocking let down of vulnerable children, no wonder I  dumped my Catholicism 30 years ago. Yes I know it's not just this branch of Christianity that has perverts,but it has more than it's fair share to me.

To clarify I  didn't dump it due to abuse..etc.Just that my brain developed and started to think for my self and decided it was  ...to quote a line from Father Ted "A load of old Nonsense!"

I dumped my catholic faith when I realised praying was pointless.

It  doesn't  save children/loved ones from harm.

It does not love things all bright and beautiful.

One crowning moment for me was when a priest said that if someone confessed to a murder in his confessional box he would NOT tell the police.

What's interested me more about this ongoing story is what it says about spiritual life.  Unless all those priests were complete charlatans, the so-called personal relationship with Jesus/God looks a bit suspect to me. In fact, it rather undermines the idea of the efficacy of the Sacraments and the effects of Grace too.

Surely no-one who has a real relationship with the creator of the universe and an omniscient and omnipotent being would dare do anything quite as horrible as what those priests did?  It's hardly a venal sin.  It makes the idea of having a cheeky wank as a teenager thinking rather horribly that your dead grandparents might be looking down on you seem really quite tame.

I've had loads of religious discussions with various believers on the comments areas of newspapers and there's a core who claim that, as an atheist, I cannot understand what actual religious belief is or realise just how wonderful and enlightening their personal relationship is with their god.  Some in the church hierarchy have said that I have no valid argument against the concept of god because their relationship is real to them (but inherently private, as all consciousness is) and that's proof in itself.

Apparently it was 42 priests who abused 350 children and they're only the ones in the report, there were plenty more who didn't appear in the report for one reason or another.  I don't know why.

They also named to four archbishops of the diocese at the time.  One of them is Desmond Connell, he's now a Cardinal and was one of the peeps up for Pope Benedicts job.  Makes you wonder doesn't it?  He was responsible for a diocese that passed these guys around the parishes and is one of the guys writing papers for the Pope! 

The current Archbishop, Diarmuid Martin apologised yesterday.  It seemed heartfelt to me.  One of the victims was on the news afterwards saying it wasn't enough, he wants the pope to come here and apologise, not to say a mass but to apologise.  Whilst my heart goes out to these folk for what happened to them, I think there's a time in your life when you have to let things go.  You've got your report, your say and your apology.  It won't change what's happened, so now I hope they can move on with their lives.

on another point, I watched Australia the other night and the moving of the half aborginie half white kids to an island to 'breed the black out of them'.  It was called a Missionary project and was run by the Church.  You can be bloomin sure there were Irish priests and nuns invovled in that too!!

The core of the Catholic religion, and I'm sure Protestant too, is faith.  Your faith is your religion.  That was drummed into us as kids, if you don't have faith, you don't have a religion.  Faith that God is real and he loves you etc etc etc.

It's a widely held concept that priests and nuns enter into the church/convent because of their faith.  But the reality is a lot of them would have been sent there by their families.  Nowt to do with their religion or their faith and it turned into this.

It always opens the door about celibacy...should it be done away with...I don't care if you haven't had a shag in a month or a year, you still don't go near a kid

Hope not Temps.

DeValera's Ireland has a lot to answer for,  Shame on the lot of them.  

I still have my Faith and there's lots of good Priests out there that we have to remember at a time like this.

It does Tayto...writing a constitution yourself is quite impressive, it's just a pity he didn't cop that humans ain't built that way

The problem I've always had with the church, and its kind of along the same vein as Daniel's post, is that they never listen, which is ironic, given that that's one of their 'thangs'   If you have a point that opposes them they'll reach into their 'faith' bag of tricks and all of a sudden you're dealing with a brick wall.

But on a personal level, the priest who married us was an absolute diamond and the priest who christened Finn was a sweetheart.  There are few of the old dinosaurs left, but it seems the ones after them are a bit more approachable. 

I remember one priest saying to me that he was ashamed to wear his collar because of all that's come out.  That's a pity.  There are the good ones out there.

Indeed! The main thing is that Ireland has liberated itself from that lot.  Some of the stories my escaped father in law told me were unbelievable. The church had supreme power. One didn't get a job, keep a job, have a shite, without the nod from the local enforcer.

I think you told me before that your FIL is from the west of ireland didn't you Crossy?  Rural areas they had enormous power and still do, though not to the same extent.  As a Dubliner it's hard to imagine what went in the small towns.  On the other side of the scale, I know my grandad had a tough time getting a job as a catholic in Dublin, I guess that would have been the 30's and 40's?  I remember my dad telling me about one job he had for a few months and was fired when they realised he was catholic. 

That being said, this report is concentrates on the Dublin Diocese so whilst they may have not had the same influence as in the place your FIL is from, there was a power there.  But it wasn't only the Church, it was the Gardai and the state aswell.  It's not as if the whole country was quiet about it, complaints were made, but nothing was done.

My fear is, with the demise of the Celtic Tiger and all, the Church will start weasling it's way back in.

I'm no expert on catholic hierarchy (or much else) but I'd have thought that the church in Ireland takes their lead from the Vatican. Is this an Irish problem or is it endemic of the Catholic church as a whole? Considering the position of power and trust the church has, particularly in the developing world, I'd like to see the whole investigation widened and taken right to the top.

FIL was from a small place called Balinrobe. He felt that the guards themselves were subservient to the church. But yes! There is a great deal of difference between Urban and Rural in every country.

I don't know Teddy, I'm no expert on it either.  But it does appear to be a Catholic Church problem.  I know that there were cases in the US and I think I remember being something about it Spain?  But I'm not sure, I wouldn't even be sure if these guys were sent from Ireland to the US.  They've been labelled paedophiles, so presumably on that basis they'd have done what the did whether they were priests or not, I guess as priests they had a higher concentration of prey!

That seems to be the case Crossy...it seems the Gardai were as much help as the Bishops!  Even in School I remember the nuns treating the priests like they were gods   Anytime the priest was coming to see us we'd all have to be immaculate and as mannerly as possible or god help you!

Yes! I can imagine you being immaculate.

Religious faith issues aside, I think there's stuff to be said about the context here.  It's only relatively recently that being unmarried is seen as being unremarkable.  I think the Catholic Church in particular has been a socially respectable place to hide for people with issues of various sorts.  The Church of England appears to be full of very late middle-aged gay men and I suppose the reason's a combination of respectability and social comfort with like-minded people.  Perhaps both churches also allow people to hide from themselves or allow people to use religion to try to control themselves.  There's also the likelihood that the respectability and power of the job in very religious countries probably also attracted people with power aspirations.  Coincidentally, a Methodist minister in one of my local villages has just been convicted of possessing certain images and it turns out he ran religious clubs for children and had passed a CRB check.  There's no suggestion (yet) that he abused his position or acted out his interest thank goodness.

I think there are many reasons why people joined the priesthood, not all of them were based on faith, we all know that.

I don't know if it has any relevance, but I was reading the Murphy Report this morning, now again this is only based on abuses in Dublin, but apparently the ratio was 2.3 boys to 1 girl.

How very dare you crossy

What is angering a lot of people is the way Priests are moved around after a report of abuse.  They never seem to lose their job, only leave the diocese quietly an then turn up at another parish miles away.  The whole system in the Catholic Church is fooked up, I hate that they have me questioning my faith and questioning how much I want the school to teach my kids on the subject.  I grew up wiht parents who didn't force us to go to church because they themselves had been forced to go and had to treat Priests with the highest respect.  But they trusted the Priests and when one would frequently call to our home and ask to take my sister on an 'outing' with some other kids........an excuse being that we didn't have much money and these outings were a way of the middle child having some time out from a large family.....my mum let her go a few times but got uncofortable and stopped the outings.  A few years later every one of that group accused the priet of abuse.  In these days if a priest asked to take your child out alarm bells would ring but in those days you trusted the church and a Priests word was law.  ABUSE OF TRUST.

This is why it's all so sad Ella.  There are lots of good Priests out there and because of all this they can't be trusted.  I feel for them at the moment.