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Dulce et Decorum Est

By Wilfred Owen

 
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime.—
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
Madame Arcati
Originally Posted by pirate1111:
Originally Posted by cologne 1:

I used to meet on this date with one of the old guys from the first 1000 bomber raid on Cologne and we'd remember the Germans who died as well as everybody else.  

it was an awful time for the world

but im still not sure why Germans started

both wars

maybe i'll buy a book and read up about it

You know that would be a really good idea.

cologne 1

Pirate all I said was it was simplistic to say the Germans started both wars. The origins of WW1 were a lot more complex, countries were tied into historical alliances.

 

I just thought it was insensitive to post straight after Col mentioned her mother sheltering during the bombing of Cologne, that the Germans started both wars.

 

The Treaty of Versailles, reparations, the Great Depression, the rise of Fascism in Italy, Spain and Germany... the origins of WW2 were complicated also.

 

What you kicking off for?

FM

cologne

lots agrees with you because they dont want to be seen as un pc

but the fact is when you moan about dresden & lots of people being killed

tough

because Germany started the war

they bombed us

we bombed you

we were the most humane

we didnt have auschwitz

 

im sick and tired of pretending

 

and i KNOW most of you agree with me

but you wont say anything

pirate1111
Originally Posted by Roger the Alien:

Pirate all I said was it was simplistic to say the Germans started both wars. The origins of WW1 were a lot more complex, countries were tied into historical alliances.

 

I just thought it was insensitive to post straight after Col mentioned her mother sheltering during the bombing of Cologne, that the Germans started both wars.

 

The Treaty of Versailles, reparations, the Great Depression, the rise of Fascism in Italy, Spain and Germany... the origins of WW2 were complicated also.

 

What you kicking off for?

Thanks Rosie.

cologne 1
Originally Posted by pirate1111:

cologne

lots agrees with you because they dont want to be seen as un pc

but the fact is when you moan about dresden & lots of people being killed

tough

because Germany started the war

they bombed us

we bombed you

we were the most humane

we didnt have auschwitz

 

im sick and tired of pretending

 

and i KNOW most of you agree with me

but you wont say anything

Do you know about the camps Britain had in South Africa, about the slaves, about the  Empire building? If you really had read up about the history you wouldn't be such a bigot. I'm done with you.

cologne 1
Originally Posted by cologne 1:
Originally Posted by Roger the Alien:

Pirate all I said was it was simplistic to say the Germans started both wars. The origins of WW1 were a lot more complex, countries were tied into historical alliances.

 

I just thought it was insensitive to post straight after Col mentioned her mother sheltering during the bombing of Cologne, that the Germans started both wars.

 

The Treaty of Versailles, reparations, the Great Depression, the rise of Fascism in Italy, Spain and Germany... the origins of WW2 were complicated also.

 

What you kicking off for?

Thanks Rosie.

 

FM
Originally Posted by cologne 1:
Originally Posted by pirate1111:

cologne

lots agrees with you because they dont want to be seen as un pc

but the fact is when you moan about dresden & lots of people being killed

tough

because Germany started the war

they bombed us

we bombed you

we were the most humane

we didnt have auschwitz

 

im sick and tired of pretending

 

and i KNOW most of you agree with me

but you wont say anything

Do you know about the camps Britain had in South Africa, about the slaves, about the  Empire building? If you really had read up about the history you wouldn't be such a bigot. I'm done with you.

Empire building?

you wouldn't be such a bigot

twice youve called me a bigot

pirate1111

I don't think it's PC to take a structuralist approach. Listening to my parents and their siblings I drew the conclusion that WWII was rather like their Woodstock. It was totally the major occurrence in their lives. I have always been fascinated by it and thus read up on it. When my Mum was 87 we took her to Germany to meet our friends and their parents and we had some fantastic discussions. T'was fascinating to compare experiences and look at photos. Just ordinary people meeting ordinary people.

We don't need to go much further than Farrago to understand how people with lazy political analysis led by poor rôle models can mess everything up.

Garage Joe
Originally Posted by Garage Joe:

I don't think it's PC to take a structuralist approach. Listening to my parents and their siblings I drew the conclusion that WWII was rather like their Woodstock. It was totally the major occurrence in their lives. I have always been fascinated by it and thus read up on it. When my Mum was 87 we took her to Germany to meet our friends and their parents and we had some fantastic discussions. T'was fascinating to compare experiences and look at photos. Just ordinary people meeting ordinary people.

We don't need to go much further than Farrago to understand how people with lazy political analysis led by poor rôle models can mess everything up.

cologne 1

If we're going to start apportioning blame for who started the war (WWI anyway) I'd say it was more at the door of Austria-Hungary. Not because of any assumed outrage over the assassination of Franz-Ferdinand and his wife, but they used it as a pretext to go to war with Serbia. They thought this would be a fairly short-lived, local conflict....and it might well have been, but for all the various treaties and alliances between various countries which gradually drew everyone in.

 

Sympathizing with German people over the atrocities that they suffered has nothing (necessarily) to do with being PC. The vast majority of Germans were as horrified by the war as most of the rest of the world was.

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing
Last edited by Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing

I think that this thread was specifically aimed for the British servicemen and women who lost their lives?  The title and opening post led to me to understand that and, given the timing of this thread, I think that was Pirate's wish?

 

Another thread would have been more tactful to discuss the wider topic, perhaps?

 

 

Cosmopolitan
Originally Posted by Cosmopolitan:

I think that this thread was specifically aimed for the British servicemen and women who lost their lives?  The title and opening post led to me to understand that and, given the timing of this thread, I think that was Pirate's wish?

 

Another thread would have been more tactful to discuss the wider topic, perhaps?

 

 

Perhaps. but it was pirate himself who first mentioned the subject of who started the war. So it's not really a strange thing for others to comment on that.

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing
Originally Posted by Cosmopolitan:

I think that this thread was specifically aimed for the British servicemen and women who lost their lives?  The title and opening post led to me to understand that and, given the timing of this thread, I think that was Pirate's wish?

 

Another thread would have been more tactful to discuss the wider topic, perhaps?

 

 

I don't think it's very tactful to ignore the way I feel. My contribution to the thread was saying how my mum coped with being bombed out of her home. If 11.11.1914 had nothing to do with that, why bring it up?

cologne 1

And pirate, you do not need to apologise for having a different view/opinion to others, but belligerently saying that YOUKNOW that the rest of us actually are in agreement with you, but are not expressing it because of PCness is not exactly going to endear you to folk either.

 

If you and Cologne are not going to get along, then just ignore/post round each other.

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing
Originally Posted by cologne 1:
Originally Posted by Cosmopolitan:

I think that this thread was specifically aimed for the British servicemen and women who lost their lives?  The title and opening post led to me to understand that and, given the timing of this thread, I think that was Pirate's wish?

 

Another thread would have been more tactful to discuss the wider topic, perhaps?

 

 

I don't think it's very tactful to ignore the way I feel. My contribution to the thread was saying how my mum coped with being bombed out of her home. If 11.11.1914 had nothing to do with that, why bring it up?

 

Yeah, and I feel pretty upset too, Cologne, but this thread isn't about me personally. I lost a lot of family during both wars but I'm not in this thread to detail them specifically; I came to post my respects to all the British forces and their allies.  No more than that.

 

 

Cosmopolitan

Sorry if I was disrespectful before . Especially to those whose relatives served for their country. I was partly thinking back to earlier this year when we lit / extinguished a candle to commemorate the start of WW1. During the televised service from Westminster, there was a reading in German which was very poignant. 

 

Of all the numerous programmes I've watched over the years about the British forces in WW1 there comes across a strange sad respect for the soldiers on the other side. They were just cannon fodder. A lot of them reserved their anger for their own Generals 100 miles behind the line.

 

Even Rudyard Kipling, the most proudly British of all writers looked back on WW1 with mixed feelings. After his son was killed in the First World War, wrote: 'If any question why we died/ Tell them, because our fathers lied.'

 

Hopefully its not disrespectful to remember the other side too [ at least for WW1]. If you watch War Horse on Sunday you'll see what I'm trying to say. It gives the perspective of the ordinary German soldier too. It was based on a very popular play and I don't remember the British Legion protesting about it.

FM

im not saying sorry for what i said

its how i feel

if you dont want to talk to me

then block me

as the saying goes

'ive got bigger fish to fry'

having said that

i think most of you are lovely/great

and would like to be here to keep in touch

 

thats it really

pirate1111
Originally Posted by Garage Joe:

 

All of our families have in some way been touched by war.

The thread developed and went elsewhere as they often do.

Very true. My great uncle was shot during the Christmas truce and one of his brothers (a pilot in WWII) was shot down and suffered brain damage. He hanged himself outside Gartnavel Royal Hospital in Glasgow - a double tragedy, if you like. And I'm sure many families across the world can come up with similar anecdotes, as Joe says.

Extremely Fluffy Fluffy Thing
Originally Posted by pirate1111:

im not saying sorry for what i said

its how i feel

if you dont want to talk to me

then block me

as the saying goes

'ive got bigger fish to fry'

having said that

i think most of you are lovely/great

and would like to be here to keep in touch

 

thats it really

You better stay here, otherwise you'll suffer the wrath of Yogi.

Yogi19
Originally Posted by Yogi19:
Originally Posted by pirate1111:

im not saying sorry for what i said

its how i feel

if you dont want to talk to me

then block me

as the saying goes

'ive got bigger fish to fry'

having said that

i think most of you are lovely/great

and would like to be here to keep in touch

 

thats it really

You better stay here, otherwise you'll suffer the wrath of Yogi.

ooh blimey lol

ok

pirate1111
Originally Posted by pirate1111:
Originally Posted by Yogi19:
Originally Posted by pirate1111:

im not saying sorry for what i said

its how i feel

if you dont want to talk to me

then block me

as the saying goes

'ive got bigger fish to fry'

having said that

i think most of you are lovely/great

and would like to be here to keep in touch

 

thats it really

You better stay here, otherwise you'll suffer the wrath of Yogi.

ooh blimey lol

ok

Yogi19

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